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Also while we're on the topic of unintentionally aggressive language; both the OP and some of the posters in this thread have quite a formal writing style. It can come across as harsh, uncompromising, unfeeling and aggressive, but that's rarely the intention. I know, because I have the same problem. A decade or two of education and training has drilled this tone into me, and I have to intentionally try to type in a more "casual" manner. 

But I'm aware of this fact, and I know when I see this in others. OP does not, so has seen malicious intent where there is none.

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25 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

By asking the question, one fair assumption is that the asker would prefer not to deal with Trans people discussing their identity.

That's a heavily biased assumption, Love.

It might be true in some cases. It might even be true in many cases but, especially in an international forum, it's not fair at all to make such an assumption. Better to find out why the person asked it instead and go from there.

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4 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

It can come across as harsh, uncompromising, unfeeling and aggressive, but that's rarely the intention.

Thank you. It’s easy to be overly sensitive OR overly critical. 

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2 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

How about XXX, XXY, XYY, and XO? (not going to type out all the permutations of having 4 or 5 sex chromosomes.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_disorders

Not to mention that some of the most feminine women you'll ever see were born with XY chromosomes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

I had this discussion with a relative who's a Phd nurse practitioner. She proclaims that there are only men and women, nothing else. I bring up the chromosomal variations, and the physical expressions of genome "errors" in the form of ambiguous genitalia.

"We can fix that".

I then ask her if she can be certain there isn't a correlated ambiguity in self perception and, if so, how does she know which way the "fix" should go to ensure the long term health and happiness of the individual?

"I don't know anything about that"

At that point I have the choice of walking away, or biting my tongue so hard I might need her services.

I walk away.

 

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6 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Better to find out why the person asked it instead and go from there.

I agree actually. I’ve said several times in these forums that the reason someone asks a question is often more important than the question itself. It’s hard to make yourself ask intent when you assume someone is trolling. *Edit* The answer can be different if you know the intent.

Edited by Love Zhaoying
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6 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

He sees the logical conclusion of seeing gender as a spectrum as the invalidation of that journey. If there are no more set points but instead a constant spectrum, then how could his pre-transition state of being a man but presenting as a woman (with or without clothing) be wrong? And if his pre-transition state was valid, then how can his journey be justified? It reduced his transition down to vain plastic surgery, no different to a "traditional" cis-woman getting a boob job or a nose job out of vanity, rather than the necessity he has always considered it to be.

That's a very interesting perspective.  But I see no shame in viewing his transition as no different than a cis person getting plastic surgery.  Getting that boob job or nose job might be just as essential to that person's self-image as getting a whole new body was to your acquaintance.  The downside of looking at a gender transition in that light is, of course, that it can trivialize it, which is not my point or intent here.  Transitioning is a huge thing, a "journey" indeed.  But maybe if society was more accepting, it would be possible to reduce it from a trip to another planet to a stroll to the corner store.

Here, maybe this will better explain what I'm aiming at.  The writer John Varley has written numerous stories set in a future universe in which changing one's sex from male to female has become trivially easy, a minor medical procedure.  A great many people change from male to female and back several times over their lifetime.

Maybe if it was that easy, we could be a lot easier with it.

This has been a strange thread indeed, but the most disturbing comments have been...Madelaine's, at least for me.  Maddy, do you really think the government will manage to shoot us back in time a hundred years?  That's scary.

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6 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

But maybe if society was more accepting, it would be possible to reduce it from a trip to another planet to a stroll to the corner store.

 

7 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

The writer John Varley has written numerous stories set in a future universe in which changing one's sex from male to female has become trivially easy, a minor medical procedure.  A great many people change from male to female and back several times over their lifetime.

Yes! I’ve read those. Wonderful. 

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40 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

How about XXX, XXY, XYY, and XO? (not going to type out all the permutations of having 4 or 5 sex chromosomes.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_disorders

Not to mention that some of the most feminine women you'll ever see were born with XY chromosomes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

 

and yet im pretty sure the vast majority of people with gender identity issues are either XX or XY

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14 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

the most disturbing comments have been...Madelaine's, at least for me.  Maddy, do you really think the government will manage to shoot us back in time a hundred years?  That's scary.

My opinion: if it gets through by decree, courts will knock it down. If congress passes a law for it, courts will knock it down. Gotta love those checks and balances.

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11 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

and yet im pretty sure the vast majority of people with gender identity issues are either XX or XY

So what?

People opposed to transgender rights say that it's because that's "not what God/nature intended", which is two hard edged groups of people; one male and one female. If you look at the actual biology, which logically would be exactly what "God/nature intended," it simply isn't that clear cut. Everyone with an undamaged human genome has all the necessary genes to have a uterus, breasts that give milk, a baritone voice, a body part that will probably be asterisked out if I give its formal name, etc. Given that's the case the argument from nature is in serious trouble.

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32 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

This has been a strange thread indeed, but the most disturbing comments have been...Madelaine's, at least for me.  Maddy, do you really think the government will manage to shoot us back in time a hundred years?  That's scary.

No, I don't think they'll be able to manage it. We're talking about the US Government. More seriously, US demographic trends suggest that things will change. It looks like Millennials are more inclusive than their grandparents, and they're obviously going to outlive them. They are, unfortunately the least likely age group to vote, but that will improve over time. Legal first generation immigrants also produce more children. That will become visible in future elections and is one reason immigration reform is such a hot topic for those in power. I've been encouraging everyone I know, particularly the youngest, to get out and vote. Nobody will live longer with the society we're creating than the young people in it.

I may have my head in the sand, but though I'm frustrated with the current political environment, I do think it'll improve. But I don't think it'll improve because one side beat the other in a fight, it'll improve because we'll recognize that fighting didn't help.

ETA: there are things on the horizon that we don't discuss much that may have greater impact than the things we do. Artificial intelligence has the potential to disrupt societies in both obvious and unseen ways. While we're all wrestling with political ideologies, technology may run away with everything. But, even there, I'm cautiously optimistic.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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4 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

No, I don't think they'll be able to manage it. We're talking about the US Government.

I think the current threat is really just a call-out to the conservative base of voters. Which is sickening.

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11 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So what?

People opposed to transgender rights say that it's because that's "not what God/nature intended", which is two hard edged groups of people; one male and one female. If you look at the actual biology, which logically would be exactly what "God/nature intended," it simply isn't that clear cut. Everyone with an undamaged human genome has all the necessary genes to have a uterus, breasts that give milk, a baritone voice, a body part that will probably be asterisked out if I give its formal name, etc. Given that's the case the argument from nature is in serious trouble.

and in reply to your post i say so what? 

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't self identitfy in anyway they wish.

But on the other hand when some people go "huh?" in response the ones self-identifying shouldn't be surprised either.

 

Edited by Phorumities
fixed stuff
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26 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

My opinion: if it gets through by decree, courts will knock it down. If congress passes a law for it, courts will knock it down. Gotta love those checks and balances.

perhaps that would be true pre-Kavanaugh.

I doubt a conservative supreme court will find the right to be one of dozens of genders a right enshrined that is enshrined in the constitution

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3 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

and in reply to your post i say so what? 

I'm not suggesting people shouldn't self identitfy in anyway they wish.

But on the other hand when some people go "huh?" in response the ones self-identifying shouldn't be surprised either.

 

Then why did you bring up chromosomes in two posts as if they were a reliable basis for someone's identity? Honestly, I'm long past being surprised at people's reactions based on their lack of knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be corrected.

 

1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

perhaps that would be true pre-Kavanaugh.

I doubt a conservative supreme court will find the right to be one of dozens of genders a right enshrined that is enshrined in the constitution

Where in the Constitution does it give the government the right to determine the legal definition of sex?

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11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think the current threat is really just a call-out to the conservative base of voters. Which is sickening.

if you are correct, since there are very few conservative voters in this forum i think the OP could have found a better way to use their time.

 

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7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Then why did you bring up chromosomes in two posts as if they were a reliable basis for someone's identity? Honestly, I'm long past being surprised at people's reactions based on their lack of knowledge, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be corrected.

 

Where in the Constitution does it give the government the right to determine the legal definition of sex?

Well you show me where non binaries have an enshrined right to force their definitions of sexuality on the population,

I think you have more important things to consider, like the overturning of the rulings prohibiting expressions of faith in the public sphere and the overturning of the right to gay marriage.

The left has long used the courts to force changes they could never get through legislation.

It looks those days are over for a long long time.

Edited by Phorumities
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As someone who exists outside of the gender-binary. I can honestly say that intentional or  not. some of the people in this thread are portraying themselves in a very transphobic light. particularly in the "there is only male/female" viewpoint and other things.. such as somehow thinking that a thread based on trans-folk uniting to make a social sphere more welcoming to people like us is..somehow an attack on conservative voters in america? How is my or anyone's personal identity an attack on anyone, when it causes no harm to anyone?

..Maybe I'm too European for this.. but,  How does that work out? How did people draw up that conclusion based on wording that was more harmlessly geekery because the op really likes the avengers? This is a sincere question, no attacks, no name calling. I genuinely want to know how my life and existence and wanting people to not treat me like a freak or someone that should be abused.

All we want,  is to just  be allowed to be ourselves in peace, with  information and visibility readily acceptable so we can just get on with things without having to constantly educate others or prepare to be harassed or stalked..

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10 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Well you show me where non binaries have an enshrined right to force their definitions of sexuality on the population,

 

 

Text of the 14th Amendment

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

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8 minutes ago, AylinVali said:

As someone who exists outside of the gender-binary. I can honestly say that intentional or  not. some of the people in this thread are portraying themselves in a very transphobic light. particularly in the "there is only male/female" viewpoint and other things.. such as somehow thinking that a thread based on trans-folk uniting to make a social sphere more welcoming to people like us is..somehow an attack on conservative voters in america? How is my or anyone's personal identity an attack on anyone, when it causes no harm to anyone?

..Maybe I'm too European for this.. but,  How does that work out? How did people draw up that conclusion based on wording that was more harmlessly geekery because the op really likes the avengers? This is a sincere question, no attacks, no name calling. I genuinely want to know how my life and existence and wanting people to not treat me like a freak or someone that should be abused.

All we want,  is to just  be allowed to be ourselves in peace, with  information and visibility readily acceptable so we can just get on with things without having to constantly educate others or prepare to be harassed or stalked..

Well said!

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11 minutes ago, AylinVali said:

somehow an attack on conservative voters in america?

there's a certain forum regular who makes out that pretty much everything is, no matter how inapplicable it might be. over and over and over again. it's her game and nothing to do with trans matters.

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with american amendment, accusations of transphobic, and political preferences taking over the thread... time out, fun over...

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