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2 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Not sure I would personally agree that setting oneself up for auction as a slave is dehumanising.

Agreed, but we're in the choir here, Callum. I don't need to be won over to the cause of trans people or the decency of kinksters. The people who need convincing will read the profile and draw the wrong conclusions.

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3 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Not sure I would personally agree that setting oneself up for auction as a slave is dehumanising.

But then, I am involved in that scene so I have no illusions that I view those things quite differently to the majority of people in SL. I strongly believe Trans people can actively be submissive, and I believe they should be proud of it as well. I don't think it invalidates one's other desires at all. These are two very different points.

But yeah, it takes time for society to adjust and stop thinking of "if you want to be trans, then conform and don't cause waves!", to that I see a lot of similarities to how gay people also felt they needed to be "loud and proud" from Stonewall and onwards.

 

ofDragonFire, if I can make a gentle suggestion to move your RP rules/style to your picks. From long time experience in SL, people do react better if the profile page is "you, yourself" and pretty much anything to do with roleplay is filed away under the picks. Include a statement "More in Picks" if you must.

The POD statement, as a dominant I understand it. It serves it's purpose and I think it's ok on the first page.

And just as a general, consider writing everything in your profile in a positive voice, one does catch more flies with honey then vinegar.

 

Stonewall wouldn't have happened, weren't for Marsha P. Johnson. Trans people, specially black trans women, have been at the forefront of the LGBT movement from the start.

 

As for your advise, I appreciate that. And I will keep that in mind. PoD requires you to put that in your profile, part of the contract. And it was supposed to be neutral, but it has been misconstrued into something it was not.

 
 

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6 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

The mere thought of us existing seems to upset you so much.

It doesn't upset me one bit. I think you misread what i said but that is totally fine. All i see in my trans friends is that they don't want to be accepted as trans people but they want to be accepted as the gender they feel they are. Maybe that is a different view than yours but it most certainly doesn't mean that i am upset or against you. 

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1 minute ago, Jules Catlyn said:

I can see the struggles of trans people in real life. I have trans friends and yes they get discriminated against. My personal opinion (and it is my personal opinion) is that you don't have to declare your rl gender here. You can already be the gender you choose to be or feel you are and experience the life you want to lead. An rl 120 kilogram bricklayer can be the most gracious ballerina in here without being harassed about their gender. I see that you feel the need to defend the rights of trans people in RL and it is a worthy cause but you will never convert everyone to your beliefs. I don't see SL as the platform to fight this battle but more of a means to experience a life you want to have. Bring a battle to people and there will always be people who will pick up the glove and fight back.

There are certainly a lot of people who use SL as an escape while presenting an "acceptable facade" in RL. But SL can also be a tool for establishing a more true presentation, learning what kind of pushback that might cause, and ways to ameliorate it.

My RL community is white, semi-rural, and conservative. Over the last couple years, I've had increased opportunity to discuss hot button issues with friends and neighbors and I've heard a lot of "I don't want their agenda shoved in my face". I happen to support many of the things they oppose, and don't see the agendas as they do. They're seeing an assault on the way things have always been. I'm seeing a heartfelt push to lift thumbs of oppression. The more strident that heartfelt push becomes, the more dug-in my neighbors become. It's been a challenge to find ways to reframe the arguments so they'll listen. My online experiences here and elsewhere have been helpful. I can hope the same for the OP.

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23 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Not sure I would personally agree that setting oneself up for auction as a slave is dehumanising.

Well hell, I still can't work the forum.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters

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1 minute ago, Jules Catlyn said:

It doesn't upset me one bit. I think you misread what i said but that is totally fine. All i see in my trans friends is that they don't want to be accepted as trans people but they want to be accepted as the gender they feel they are. Maybe that is a different view than yours but it most certainly doesn't mean that i am upset or against you. 

It was hard not to when you were telling me how to behave and where to take this fight. This fight is literally our lives, we shouldn't have to hide who we are. Being trans is part of who I am, an important part, and I don't want that erased. A lot of us don't. Some people don't want to be out and a lot of people can't, be it for safety or because it would trigger their dysphoria. But I am out and I am loud, and I love being trans - wouldn't trade it for an easier life. Same way (cis) women won't trade being women because it would be easier to be a man, same way people of color won't change who we are because life would be easier if we were read as white.

This is exactly why we need to education, why we need space for us to support each other and thrive. 

If you read my responses and my original post, you would see I've already touched upon everything I said in this comment. 

 

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1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Agreed, but we're in the choir here, Callum. I don't need to be won over to the cause of trans people or the decency of kinksters. The people who need convincing will read the profile and draw the wrong conclusions.

Some people will draw the wrong conclusions, but I am not sure they could be won over on this issue anyway.

Being trans should be no different to being left handed. (not sure if any of my subs are left handed to be honest, I've never asked them)

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Just now, Callum Meriman said:

Some people will draw the wrong conclusions, but I am not sure they could be won over on this issue anyway.

Being trans should be no different to being left handed. (not sure if any of my subs are left handed to be honest, I've never asked them)

The US Government is on the verge of declaring there are only two genders. I don't think strident opposition by the LGBT community will reverse that. It may well have caused it.

I'm frustrated when well meaning people let anger cause them to inadvertently work against their own goals. I still think the answer is in the middle of the road, but now everybody's in the ditches on either side.

So far, the surest way I've seen to convince a disbeliever that trans people are real, aren't making it up, and deserve respect, is for them to discover they gave birth to one. The other ways will, I think, require a little more finesse.

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4 hours ago, OfDragonFire said:

No, the goal and desire of a trans person is not to be another gender, it is to be accepted as the gender they are. People transition to alleviate their dysphoria and for a lot of us, specially trans women of color, passing is more about survival than anything else. There is no one way to be transgender and there is no one way to transition. Not everyone chooses to go on hormones, not everyone chooses to have surgeries, and no one should feel forced to adhere to society's idea of what a man or woman should look like or behave as. 

I am not trans because I want to be a man, I am trans because I am a man. Always been one. Being trans isn't the easiest path, but it has given be perceptive I wouldn't otherwise have - it shaped me into the person I am. I love myself and I love my trans identity, and I wouldn't change that for anything. I have no interest in being cis or being perceived as cis. I have no interest in having my identity erased and trans is part of my identity. We have the right to be ourselves, to feel and be represented. 

 If you can't respect me or other trans people for who we are, regardless of what you believe we should look or act like, that speaks more about you than it does us. 

If you truly want to learn, I am happy to answer any questions and provide you with resources. Feel free to IM me. If you are just here to be rude and tell us we should try to live up to gender roles and cisnormative beliefs, then I politely ask you to keep it to yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude, and I'm not trying to  tell you how to live. I wish you all the best in your endeavours.

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3 hours ago, OfDragonFire said:

This 'battle' is my life. My gender is nothing to be ashamed of and nothing I should be afraid to express. I will fight tooth and nail for trans people, because we deserve it. We deserve to feel represented, to feel okay with who we are. 

I didn't call for a fight, I called for TRANS PEOPLE to make themselves known so we can support each other. We shouldn't have to fight to be who were are, we shouldn't have to fight to feel safe here or anywhere else. The mere thought of us existing seems to upset you so much. I love being trans, I love my identity, and I won't hide it. I will fight tooth and nail for trans people if I have to, since basic human decency seems to be too much to ask for.

Um...you didn't call for a fight?

  • You style yourself after Marvel superheroes...fighting is what they do.
  • "This 'battle' is my life."
  • "I will fight tooth and nail"...
  • Your whole attitude in this discussion has been combative.  You're construing any comment that doesn't agree with you 100% as an "attack" and you verbally lash out in response.
  • "Message you privately"...we don't generally do that here, either using the forum PM feature or taking a discussion in world.  Your original post is public, our replies are public.
  • "Why is the fact that I want to create something for us such a bad thing? I don't understand."...It's not a bad thing!  No one has said it is.  A few of us have (rather gently, actually) pointed out a few possible obstacles or alternatives, as well as ways you could present yourself and your cause less...confrontationally.

As others have pointed out, you may actually be able to make more of a difference by being a trans advocate/activist in RL; there's a lot more anti-trans sentiment out there than there is in SL, which is actually one of the most trans-friendly and accepting places.  (Not everyone here is trans-friendly, of course.  But no place is perfect.)

 

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for me there's no discussion, you'r man or woman, trans is a stage, you'r still a man or woman, for me it's no gender on itself.
Above all you'r a human. So be what you are.

I'm gay ... so what?

somebody else lesbian... so what?

you changed to man, or woman? ...again, so what?

Be Yourself.

 

What i don't like is, from ANY activism, to get it slapped in my face constantly and háve to be supporter or get a dicrimation stamp on my forehead.

 

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1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Um...you didn't call for a fight?

  • You style yourself after Marvel superheroes...fighting is what they do.
  • "This 'battle' is my life."
  • "I will fight tooth and nail"...
  • Your whole attitude in this discussion has been combative.  You're construing any comment that doesn't agree with you 100% as an "attack" and you verbally lash out in response.
  • "Message you privately"...we don't generally do that here, either using the forum PM feature or taking a discussion in world.  Your original post is public, our replies are public.
  • "Why is the fact that I want to create something for us such a bad thing? I don't understand."...It's not a bad thing!  No one has said it is.  A few of us have (rather gently, actually) pointed out a few possible obstacles or alternatives, as well as ways you could present yourself and your cause less...confrontationally.

As others have pointed out, you may actually be able to make more of a difference by being a trans advocate/activist in RL; there's a lot more anti-trans sentiment out there than there is in SL, which is actually one of the most trans-friendly and accepting places.  (Not everyone here is trans-friendly, of course.  But no place is perfect.)

 

  • Still don't understand how relating myself to a franchise I love make me a bad person?
  • You are taking it out of context. They told me to keep my trans identity to myself, and called it a battle. So I told them what they are calling a battle is literally my life.
  • I did not lash out, I have been nothing but calm. You are making assumptions, so intend to see me as hateful and spiteful, that you are taking everything I said out of context, and assuming the worst.
  • Maybe that was your intent, but if you go back and read your responses, you'll see it was far from productive. If you wanted to be helpful, you would've said that in a kinder way. 
  • I wasn't being confrontational, I was stating my experience. Bringing attention to an issue isn't a bad thing, you shouldn't aim to silence marginalized communities. You should aim to help people, to empower them and elevate their voices. If you don't do any of these things, you wouldn't be offended. You wouldn't make it about you. You would listen to what we are saying, you would not ignore our experiences and insist that SL is accepting and trans friendly. It is far from it, and that won't change unless we do something, unless we challenge these misconceptions and bring light and attention to the issues. Educate people, not brush aside the issues so we wouldn't offend people.
  • I am an activist, not just online and in real life. I do so much for communities that I'm parts of and those that I am not part of as well. But that's beside the point, you're not listening to what I am saying, you are hearing what you want to hear and that's not what I am saying. That's not how communication works. 

All those points aside, know that I bear you no ill will whatsoever. If you want to talk, and by that I mean actually have a productive conversation, I'm here. Otherwise, goodnight.

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7 hours ago, Jules Catlyn said:

I can see the struggles of trans people in real life. I have trans friends and yes they get discriminated against. My personal opinion (and it is my personal opinion) is that you don't have to declare your rl gender here. You can already be the gender you choose to be or feel you are and experience the life you want to lead. An rl 120 kilogram bricklayer can be the most gracious ballerina in here without being harassed about their gender. I see that you feel the need to defend the rights of trans people in RL and it is a worthy cause but you will never convert everyone to your beliefs. I don't see SL as the platform to fight this battle but more of a means to experience a life you want to have. Bring a battle to people and there will always be people who will pick up the glove and fight back.

That's the point I made. Be the gender you want to be. However, it seems that the OP is here to engage in  confrontation. It seems that's the OP's whole raison d'etra. And then the OP gets upset and complains when the they finds it.

Edited by Phorumities
not getting into pronouns
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2 hours ago, Ethan Paslong said:

for me there's no discussion, you'r man or woman, trans is a stage, you'r still a man or woman, for me it's no gender on itself.
Above all you'r a human. So be what you are.

I'm gay ... so what?

somebody else lesbian... so what?

you changed to man, or woman? ...again, so what?

Be Yourself.

 

What i don't like is, from ANY activism, to get it slapped in my face constantly and háve to be supporter or get a dicrimation stamp on my forehead.

 

You will eventually In life meet someone who is non-binary gender..I hope you accept them as neither “man” or “woman” and continue to say “so what?”.

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7 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

So far, the surest way I've seen to convince a disbeliever that trans people are real, aren't making it up, and deserve respect, is for them to discover they gave birth to one

Support for Trans on a personal level follows a similar pattern as support for LGB. Once you know someone who is whether friends and family, you develop an empathy and understanding. 

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38 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

.I hope you accept them as neither “man” or “woman” and continue to say “so what?”.

my answer to that is to read in the second line

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This whole thread has such a strange vibe... the whole, overall style feels so instagramish, mixed with a bit of tumblr (which isn't a tolerant place, but the best place for building an echochamber).

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8 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The US Government is on the verge of declaring there are only two genders. I don't think strident opposition by the LGBT community will reverse that. It may well have caused it.

God, I hope that fails stupendously. *Edit* The point is, they want to declare you are the gender assigned at birth.

Edited by Love Zhaoying

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18 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

This whole thread has such a strange vibe... the whole, overall style feels so instagramish, mixed with a bit of tumblr (which isn't a tolerant place, but the best place for building an echochamber).

Obviously I don't know for certain... but the whole thing gives off this really bait-like vibe. Not sure if it's the buzzword bingo, the stolen RL pic, the combative writing style, the complaints about fetishisation with a profile dedicated to sexual slavery, or the polarization of every reply here into "100% supportive" or "personal attack" categories. Something feels off.

I might be wrong of course. If I am, then I'm sorry. But if I'm right (and I think I am), include me in the reddit/4chan screencap?

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For what it's worth, OfDragonFire, it really does seem to me that your other experiences are colouring how you've read and reacted to Maddy and Lindal's contributions. When you say that you've been 'nothing but calm' and I look at see that in context of your surrounding words, I wonder if it's not a cold calm fury. You come across as quite aggressive and indeed it does look like you're quick to make something a fight.

I don't see anyone else here trying to make it a fight. I see people asking questions, giving their opinons and also a few pointing out additional factors which may well influence how others react to you and offering some reasons why, like the general weirdness of meet/meat markets.

The observations about your profile are that it's pretty much all about sexual role play. That alone will increase the amount of fetishisation directed your way. When you do mention other things, it's structured in a way which makes it subservient to the RP (and perhaps part of it). If it was written differently and prioritised other sides of who you are, it's very likely that the amount of fetishisation directed your way would decrease or at least be buffered by more positive experiences.

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4 hours ago, Ethan Paslong said:

for me there's no discussion, you'r man or woman, trans is a stage, you'r still a man or woman, for me it's no gender on itself.

 

Why? What leads you to that conclusion?

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I'm an old white guy - CIS-het, I believe is the term. I openly declare my support for your choices and your freedom to make those choses. I condemn and repudiate the insults and abuses to which you have been subjected. I take this stand of my own free will, both in SL and the real world. I hope this small expression of support makes your journey through life a little bit easier.

 

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1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You mean all the tags?

That's part of it, yeah. And I know it's just searchbait tagging; it's still annoying, especially given how many of the tags have nothing to do with the trans community at all. The idea that the LGBTQ+ community is a homogenous, monolithic organisation with no variation of opinion or attitude is both total garbage and deeply offensive, but it's a common mistake made by those people (usually alt-right agitators) attempting to parody specific parts of either spectrum.

A single red flag doesn't make this confirmed bait, but it does suggest that it's a realistic possibility. I'd like to think that the OP is just misinformed and too used to addressing an echo chamber.

For what it's worth, this thread being genuine or not doesn't change my supportive stance on trans issues one inch.

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