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25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Can you tell me what, in the OP's opening paragraph, is aggressive?

How about this? Choice of language is a matter of aggression level. You can alleviate ignorance, but you can also choose to "fight", "combat" or "oppose" it. SJWs always draw quick inspiration from Orwell's newspeak dystopia that language might change thinking, ... we don't know that yet but your thinking for sure changes the way you express yourself.

On 10/25/2018 at 11:09 PM, OfDragonFire said:

...

We need to do something about it, to combat this ignorance and support each other through the struggles we face in our real and second life.

...

Sincerely,

the Transgender Avenger. 

but then again...

25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Also, if I remember right, you live in the UK and not the US right?

Does it matter? Or has the US degraded enough into a developing country again that the business of avenging is once more considered good social citicenship? ... Read those comic books again, Luna. Vigilantes are criminals themselves, even US comic publishers stopped painting them shining white long ago.

I'm out of here, sadly the thread has proven to moe once more activists do not deserve my help, come back to me in 15 years when the movement grew up from infancy.

Edited by Fionalein

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22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What’s your question? I don’t see it in any post close above.

Basically why one disorder should be regarded as something that needs to be treated so people can conform to society's standards. In my case an autism spectrum disorder and in other cases society should just accept the disorder and even integrate it in every day life and law? Where is the line of what is a disorder and what is not? And who decides what is acceptable? 

 

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4 minutes ago, Jules Catlyn said:

Basically why one disorder should be regarded as something that needs to be treated so people can conform to society's standards. In my case an autism spectrum disorder and in other cases society should just accept the disorder and even integrate it in every day life and law? Where is the line of what is a disorder and what is not? And who decides what is acceptable? 

 

A lot of questions. I will leave all but the first for someone else. Trans people who are not happy with their current psychology / body / gender seek help because they want to. Nobody forces treatment.

Side note: Most would not choose to be Trans due to societal stigmas, higher chance of getting murdered, higher difficulty in finding employment..etc.

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1 minute ago, Jules Catlyn said:

Basically why one disorder should be regarded as something that needs to be treated so people can conform to society's standards. In my case an autism spectrum disorder and in other cases society should just accept the disorder and even integrate it in every day life and law? Where is the line of what is a disorder and what is not? And who decides what is acceptable? 

 

Thats an interesting ethical question. Societies stand on things has shifted over the years and the disorders listed and described in the official manuals have changed over time. Some dropped out, new ones got added and some simply vanished from existing as "a thing".

Today I think it has a lot to do with the aspect of suffering and the aspect of improving someones life, and less with making an individual fit into general norms, customs and moral opinions. Thats what let homosexuality get dropped and let other continue to stay in. But thats more a mix of my gut feeling and the memory I have from what my psychology professor once told in class. The exact way how a disorder finds its way in and out of the manuals is probably worth an indepth read up.

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2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's been discussed repeatedly over the years how women often don't like how men respond to them (generally). When presenting a problem to a man, women just want a little sympathy to start with, before going into solutions for the problem. But the man just starts in trying to solve the problem -- that is the way he shows his concern but for the woman that just doesn't cut it.


I see the beginning of this thread very much demonstrating this dynamic...except the person who might have wanted a little sympathy first is a man, and the people responding non-sympathetically and with only problem-solving responses were women...LOL (Madelaine, Lindal,Ayela).
Go back to the first page, you will see that most everyone who responded first to the OP started solving the problem without giving a bit of sympathy first (the exception being Dillon & Callum).
I can see why the OP became a bit defensive.
 

 

2 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Mars/Venus!

 

 

Bringing up this generalization would point more towards most of the thread responding as expected and the OP not responding as expected.  In this case, the OP says he is male and thus by "generalizations" would prefer the logical 'solve it' approach - thus it would not be obvious to most as to "why the OP became a bit defensive".  

 

 

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

  IMO, the reality of Trans issues is not up for debate.

Nobody in this thread is debating the reality of Trans issues. 

There are debates over whether or not, biologically, there are more than two genders.  And there are debates over whether or not the OP is contributing to their inworld issues by what is posted in their profile.  

 

(been busy at work, took a while to get this all written and actually posted)

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:
1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

  IMO, the reality of Trans issues is not up for debate.

Nobody in this thread is debating the reality of Trans issues. 

I guess all the posts that seemed to be denying Trans-related “facts” were my imagination! ? As well as the posts challenging whether the OP was “really Trans”. Different points of view / different analyses.

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11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I guess all the posts that seemed to be denying Trans-related “facts” were my imagination! ? As well as the posts challenging whether the OP was “really Trans”. Different points of view / different analyses.

You said "the reality of Trans issues is not up for debate".  To me that says "Trans have real issues and that is not up for debate" - and I agreed with that interpretation.

 

I think the few posts that seemed to challenge whether the OP was Trans were really questioning the contradictions that the OP now gives us for his Tran definition vs what many of us have been told Trans is.  I'll refer back to the confusion that I note in this post (easier to just link it):
  https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/429180-trans-people-assemble/?do=findComment&comment=1811209

 

 

As to 'Trans-related "facts"' - from what I gather, some of it is still being debated in the science world.  Thus only some of the facts are truly facts and the rest is just everyone's interpretations and viewpoints.

 

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4 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

While you and others might wish that those of us outside your world could accept this blindly, it is much easier said than done.  Much of what we think is based on what we see.  How we perceive what we see is often based on thousands of years of mankind history.  People may eventually get to where you want them, but you cannot get upset with people questioning things that seem contradictory to everything they've always been told.  Especially when it is even contradictory to most of the more recent information on transgender.

We have been told for years now that transgender means you identify as the opposite sex of what your body represents, what your genes indicate.  i.e. One's body appears to be male (has male genitals), but the person's mind says they are female and the person feels the male genitals are wrong -- or vise versa.  You are saying that your body appears to be female and you don't have any problem with those female parts, but yet you are still male.  This contradicts what we have been told, thus the constant questioning as we try to wrap our minds around this new concept.

 

 

There is a big difference between supporting someone and blindly going along.  From what I read in this thread, you will support and back anything the OP says simply because they said they were Trans - period, no questions asked, even if they said that today was Friday.  That is the impression you are giving, IMO.

 

 

This is part of what is causing some of confusion.  The OP states they are male, but their forum profile picture here presents as female and they say they are perfectly comfortable with their female genitals.  From most of what I've read and heard about transgender, that is contradictory and confusing to say the least.

 

 

To the OP:  I think your inworld profile is much calmer, without the antagonist feeling as before.  I would like to point out one thing, from a cis point of view:  When I read "boy with a p***y", it sounds like simply the opposite of SheMale, which most think of as a fetish. Thus from my viewpoint, I would expect people to possibly approach you with fulfilling a fetish in mind.

 

 

And that's where relearning comes in. You should never assume people's genders, you should ask what pronouns they identify with.

I put 'boy with p*ssy' in my profile so people would understand. It gets exhausting, repeating the same conversation over and over again, and using words that hurt me. So it's easier to refer them to my profile. 

The person in my profile picture is not female, they identify as non-binary. So, please don't misgender them.

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5 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

So, if this is the reality, then who is to say what is right or wrong. And is there even a right or wrong? Why can't we just accept each other how we are and show kindness to all?

If only it was that simple.

It's down to perception. One person's acceptance is another's oppression, and yet another's non-acceptance of themselves. 

The obvious example of this is in sport. A male (sex, not gender) puberty conveys massive advantages in many sports over those that go through a female puberty. That's simple biology, that's the scientific consensus, disagreeing puts you in flat-Earther territory. That's also why we have Men's and Women's categories for almost every sport out there - because simple competitiveness would exclude all women from the majority of sports, especially individual ones. And it would also exclude men from some sports, for the same reason, it just depends on the demands of the specific sport. And there's some sports where a male or female biology doesn't have a significant impact on performance, so mixed sex competitions are the norm. That's just the nature of being a sexually dimorphic species.

And yes, I'm talking from experience here, as a student athlete of an individual sport (not naming it here for privacy reasons). My best result at the national student championships was a last 16. And yet I know from years of experience that men that were struggling to make it through the first knockout round were my equal, if not my better. That's just how things are, the male body is just unquestionably better than the female one at my sport. That's related to biological sex, not gender identity.

For many trans people, acceptance of who they are means that MtF trans women should be allowed to compete with cis women. On the other hand, for many women, acceptance of who they are includes accepting the "limitations" of a female puberty, and not being sex-blind. To be honest, I'm one of them. I used to hate sparring with men (regardless of skill level), because it hurt and was unpleasant, just because of the vastly superior upper body strength and resilience that results from a male puberty. Dividing my sport into male and female categories is accepting who I am, and allowing my 'half' of the population to compete on an even footing.

If it's possible to "accept each other how we are" for both groups, then that's perfect. That's ideal. But there's a problem when one impedes on the other.

So where is the line here between trans acceptance and female acceptance? That's still up for debate, there isn't really a consensus on this issue. These are my thoughts: 

  • I would not feel comfortable competing with a trans woman who had made no physical transition at all. They are still male in terms of biological sex, with all the performance advantages that incurs, and it's simply unfair to everyone else. Unintentional doping still results in disqualification, and this is no different. 
  • Yet there is a point (two years? not sure on the science) after which a "fully transitioned" (with surgery and hormones) trans woman loses those performance advantages from a male puberty. I'd have zero problem competing with a "fully transitioned" trans woman. None at all. Acceptance here does not clash.
  • I have no idea about trans women that aren't in those two categories. My focus would have to be on fairness for as many people as possible, and if that means that a "partially transitioned" trans woman was asked to compete in the male categories, then that is unfortunate but necessary.

Please note that in every instance my sole focus was on biology and competitive fairness, identity doesn't come into it.

I longposted again. The point is, the world is not black and white, and even simple statements that are almost impossible to argue against at the conceptual level aren't always that easy to put into practice. I'm sure everyone in this thread agrees that people should be accepted for who they are; but as we've seen, people can't even agree on who people are, let alone how they should be accepted.

The world is messy, everything is shades of grey.

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1 hour ago, Sylvannas Zulaman said:

So, kids, what ya'll learn about the topic is: let's love our fellow human despite their personal choices and let us all be free and respect each other boundaries and act according to the local laws to keep a happy thriving community wherever you leave. ☮️

And whatever you do, do NOT ask any questions. 

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I have done enough education throughout this thread. Explained the same ideas over and over again. If you are unwilling to listen, then you are not willing to learn. If you are unwilling to hear marginalized minorities, look back at the ideas you've internalized and find ways to unlearn them, then you are not willing to learn and not willing to be an ally. 

If you want to learn, you would actually listen to what I and other people have to say, not argue and debate over the validity of our existence and our experiences. You would not ignore the actual issue to address imagined ones - like the tone of the thread or the 'aggressive' language used. All you are doing is ignoring the actual issues faced by trans people and perpetuating harmful transphobic and cisnormative ideas. 

Us existing and living our lives is not a 'controversial issue', us wanting to connect with each other is not seeking fight or attention. I am done wasting my time trying to make you feel better about our existences - we are here, we have always been here, and we will not be erased.

 

download.jpg

Edited by OfDragonFire
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3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:
3 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:
5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

  IMO, the reality of Trans issues is not up for debate.

Nobody in this thread is debating the reality of Trans issues. 

I guess all the posts that seemed to be denying Trans-related “facts” were my imagination! ? As well as the posts challenging whether the OP was “really Trans”. Different points of view / different analyses.

I think what LittleMe is saying (set me on fire if I'm wrong, Li'l) is that the crux of the initial discussion was over whether the OPs atypical experience as trans in SL was due to trans-ness or the OP's individual attitude, as expressed here and in his profile. I think I started this, and that's certainly what I was getting at.

There's been a lot of back-and-forth over terminology and definitions, but it seems to me that most here have been fairly supportive of the trans community, and we've collectively shared some knowledge. I will take that, perhaps incorrectly, as evidence that my initial assessment was more right than wrong, and that SL can be as accepting of trans men as it is of relentlessly analytical women. I'm encouraged to see that the conversation continues with civility, and that the OP is still engaging with us.

And finally, the OP has a goal of creating a safe space for trans men. It was suggested to join such a place before creating a new one, but I don't think I've seen anyone mention an existing group specifically for trans men. Does anybody know of one, or perhaps an allied group that might get the OP headed in that direction? If I missed such a reference... thanks!

ETA: I still sense heat here, so we're not yet at nirvana.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Continuous improvement?
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1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

And whatever you do, do NOT ask any questions. 

Questions build knowledge and that's a good thing. Questioning choices on the other side...

 

 

There was a time where being homosexual was considered a medical condition. There will be a time where genders will have no use for other than procreation or not even that. Meanwhile all we can do is read, get informed and embrace the differences instead of try to modify them into something they are not just to fit it in a general consensus. Humans are beautiful, different, creative, unpredictable and that's the beauty of our species. As long as everyone is respectful, no harm come from personal traits. 

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33 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I guess all the posts that seemed to be denying Trans-related “facts” were my imagination! ? As well as the posts challenging whether the OP was “really Trans”. Different points of view / different analyses.

I asked because the definition they themselves put forth as what transgender was didn't sync with how they described themselves. Their response was "I answered that time and time again." The only thing they have said was they are trans because they say so. Which says to me, it doesn't matter what their own definition is, it matters what they say. Sounds very totalitarian to me. 

Just now, Sylvannas Zulaman said:

Questions build knowledge and that's a good thing. Questioning choices on the other side...

There was a time where being homosexual was considered a medical condition. There will be a time where genders will have no use for other than procreation or not even that. Meanwhile all we can do is read, get informed and embrace the differences instead of try to modify them into something they are not just to fit it in a general consensus. Humans are beautiful, different, creative, unpredictable and that's the beauty of our species. As long as everyone is respectful, no harm come from personal traits. 

I never questioned anyones choice. EVER. Yet i am being attacked for wanting clarification. Both of my daughters are not straight, one of them is questioning their gender. But ask questions for any sort of information from trans people in this forum and you get called all sorts of horrible things. Nice to see how helpful and loving people really can be. 

7 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

Us existing and living our lives is not a 'controversial issue'

Bull. Just look at the world around you. The LGBT community is a controversial topic. No one here gives a damn how you live your life. Some of us are actually trying to understand how it all works, some for very very personal reasons. You keep saying over and over you don't have to educate anyone, yet you also say to ask any questions. In the very next breath you get aggressive and attack any questions directed at you. So what is it? You like baiting people so you can cry transphobia? I'm done asking you a damn thing.  Enjoy your SecondLife, keep going to places designed to dehumanize and objectify people and keep bitiching about the treatment you receive there.. Thats like a black man going to a KKK meeting and expecting to be treated with respect.

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9 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:
54 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

As well as the posts challenging whether the OP was “really Trans”. Different points of view / different analyses.

I asked because the definition they themselves put forth as what transgender was didn't sync with how they described themselves. Their response was "I answered that time and time again." The only thing they have said was they are trans because they say so. Which says to me, it doesn't matter what their own definition is, it matters what they say. Sounds very totalitarian to me. 

I’m sorry you did not like their answer, or rather found their explanation unsatisfactory. As it was a personal question, nobody can answer but the OP. If you care to reframe it as a general question, someone else could give it a shot. If it helps, being Trans is not about body parts, it is about how one identifies their gender (which may not match their body parts). 

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Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

I’m sorry you did not like their answer, or rather found their explanation unsatisfactory. As it was a personal question, nobody can answer but the OP. If you care to reframe it as a general question, someone else could give it a shot. If it helps, being Trans is not about body parts, it is about how one identifies their gender (which may not match their body parts). 

Since when? The Youtube videos the OP posted specifically states  "Transgender is: when your gender identity does not match the gender you are assigned at birth." He then goes on to say as an example, "because you have a pen is you are male and that does not match how they feel inside."

trans·gen·der
/transˈjendər,tranzˈjendər/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

So, a trans man says it has to do with body parts as does the latest dictionary. 

Fine, general question. If a person says they are more than happy with their body yet claim to be a different gender, how does that make them trans, wouldnt they be non-binary?

 

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26 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Since when? The Youtube videos the OP posted specifically states  "Transgender is: when your gender identity does not match the gender you are assigned at birth." He then goes on to say as an example, "because you have a pen is you are male and that does not match how they feel inside."

You’ve mentioned this several times. That video obviously oversimplified things. I don’t blame the OP for not responding though, as they aren’t responsible for the over-simplistic statements in the video.

Something often ignored and denied in this thread, is that Trans is a “Spectrum” - not binary.

Eunuchs of old would be considered Trans today (I’d tell you more but people go ape-poop when I mention church); they were considered non-binary. Cross-dressers are now counted amongst the Trans spectrum. People born with ambiguous genitals may wake up one day and realize they are not the gender someone always told them. Someone with a messed up chromosome may be considered Trans. India has Hijra. Thailand has Ladyboys. Native Americans have “Two-Spirits” (non-binary). What most of these have in common is that they have a different gender expression; not that anyone gives a rat’s arse about their genitals.

26 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

trans·gen·der
/transˈjendər,tranzˈjendər/
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.

Note that it says “birth sex”, not “genitals”. To refresh you on one example, someone decides children’s birth “sex”, puts it on paper, and raises them as that gender. The important bits above are “sense of identity and [sense of] gender do not match”..

26 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, a trans man says it has to do with body parts as does the latest dictionary. 

I missed anything a Trans man (the OP?) said..the dictionary entry you quoted, does not mean “your bits”, it means the sex that was decided for you at birth. Someone could have internal o-varies or test-icles (both sexual organs but one hidden) ; or mistakenly have their genitals mutilated - and be raised as the “wrong” gender - they are forced to identify as that gender until one day, they realize something is wrong, their identity is really the “other”. 

Its about the head, the identity, not the bits. 

26 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Fine, general question. If a person says they are more than happy with their body yet claim to be a different gender, how does that make them trans, wouldnt they be non-binary?

Simple answer: not all Trans people want to change their body. A Trans man can’t go out and easily get an “addadicktome”, as easily as a Trans woman can get theirs remove. Lacking options, what answer would you suggest - that they are forever miserable with their body because it is required in order to be Trans? People are all different, and there is room for every possibility of gender expression - surgery or not. 

“I’m Trans but happy with my body parts” sounds completely healthy to me..I would be happy for the OP if that is the case. 

Edited by Love Zhaoying
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1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

If only it was that simple.

Showing kindness is simple. Accepting people as they are and being kind to them is simple. Deciding if you want to compete against someone in an athletic contest is simple. I didn't say it was easy. You might not think it's fair. But the choice to choose kindness should always be simple IMO.

1 hour ago, OfDragonFire said:

The person in my profile picture is not female, they identify as non-binary.

Honest question here. I am trying to wrap my head around the idea of non-binary. So a person who is non-binary does that really mean not male or female or is it somehow both? I really don't understand. Looking at links with posts as to what non-binary means has not cleared that up for me. 

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3 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

does that really mean not male or female or is it somehow both

Another option is neither. Asexual people are a type of “neither” from a gender / Trans spectrum point of view. There is a new pronoun “Zhe” I think..

*Edit* You may want to google “gender fluid”..

Edited by Love Zhaoying
Added gender fluid
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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Another option is neither. Asexual people are a type of “neither” from a gender / Trans spectrum point of view. There is a new pronoun “Zhe” I think..

I thought asexual meant not interested in sex. 

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Just now, Blush Bravin said:

I thought asexual meant not interested in sex. 

It does..other types on the Trans - strike that - Human Gender and Sexuality Spectrum include Pansexual, and Demisexual..but yes, these are more about “who you love and how”. But they are tied to gender and expression.

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6 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I thought asexual meant not interested in sex. 

It does - to a point. And that, too, is a spectrum. AVEN is the organisation that people can visit to learn more about asexuality.

Edited by Skell Dagger
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6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

You’ve mentioned this several times. That video obviously oversimplified things. I don’t blame the OP for not responding though, as they aren’t responsible for the over-simplistic statements in the video.

The OP posted it as a way to define and teach what Transgender means.. So... why did they post it if it wasnt the message they wanted to convey?

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Eunuchs of old would be considered Trans today

You seem to think Eunuchs chose to become eunuchs... That was forcefully done to them.. The didn't choose it and no they would not be considered trans, most of them were very much male before being mutilated. 

11 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Note that it says “birth sex”, not “genitals”. To refresh you on one example, someone decides children’s birth “sex”, puts it on paper, and raises them as that gender. The important bits above are “sense of identity and [sense of] gender do not match”..

How does one decide birth sex, by looking at their bits.. 

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I missed anything a Trans man (the OP?) said..the dictionary entry you quoted, does not mean “your bits”, it means the sex that was decided for you at birth. Someone could have internal ***** or testicles (both sexual organs but one hidden) ; or mistakenly have their genitals mutilated - and be raised as the “wrong” gender - they are forced to identify as that gender until one day, they realize something is wrong, their identity is really the “other”. 

Its about the head, the identity, not the bits.

The double sexual organ births are so tiny a number as to not even remotely enter the argument. Seeing as babies can't talk, how should we define their gender at birth? 

The trans man was the guy in the videos, teh one the OP said would answer our questions. The one you seem to think is to generalized.

14 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Simple answer: not all Trans people want to change their body. A Trans man can’t go out and easily get an “addadicktome”, as easily as a Trans woman can get theirs remove. Lacking options, what answer would you suggest - that they are forever miserable with their body because it is required in order to be Trans? People are all different, and there is room for every possibility of gender expression - surgery or not. 

“I’m Trans but happy with my body parts” sounds completely healthy to me..I would be happy for the OP if that is the case. 

But you just said... 

15 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The important bits above are “sense of identity and [sense of] gender do not match”..

If they don't match you are trans, i get that. But if one says they are more than happy with their body even though it doesn't match what their own gender identity is.... Also, you must have missed the OP saying it doesn't matter what bits you have they dont have male or female definitions. If you have cisfemale bits and identify as a man you have male bits even if they are cisfemale, just because you say so.  

Do you see where this gets confusing for us? 

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8 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

If they don't match you are trans, i get that. But if one says they are more than happy with their body even though it doesn't match what their own gender identity is.... Also, you must have missed the OP saying it doesn't matter what bits you have they dont have male or female definitions. If you have cisfemale bits and identify as a man you have male bits even if they are cisfemale, just because you say so.  

This totally confuses me. Can you quote him so I can find where he said this please?

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