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Y’all focus too much on drama and that’s sad. The good information provided by OP and others in this thread remains good. The bad information provided by others remains bad. Give it a few years to sink in, education is not an instant process.

Edited by Love Zhaoying
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M'kay ... OP?

  1. Own your words, own your tone.
  2. Do not insert your own thoughts/feelings into what others say.
  3. Don't want a discussion? Make a post on a blog somewhere and close down the comments.
  4. Don't pretend to speak for anyone other than yourself. Speak as a member of a particular community or similar? Sure - don't pretend to be a representative.

I am not going to bother touching the entire Binary/Non-binary "discussion" as this is not the place for it - not with how stubborn some can be and with how heated it can get.

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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Its funny how you can say you didnt attack anyone but when we say the same you say we are wrong and we did attack you.... And you kind of did have to explain when you kept saying "ask and i will explain." 

If you really think the subject of sexuality and gender isnt controversial in this day and age...

Thats because you were being impolite and attacking people. You seem to have lumped the actual questions in with the couple of people who were actually attacking you.. 

I have listened, your view of what being trans is, does not conform to what the gentleman n the videos series you posted states being trans is. So, i'm curious as to why you posted it. He states "Transgender is: when your gender identity does not match the gender you are assigned at birth." He then goes on to say as an example, "because you have a pen is you are male and that does not match how they feel inside."

What defines a legitimate question?
You have stated that you are comfortable in your body as a man even though it does not have cis male parts.. This is what confuses me. What exactly makes you feel male? This isnt an attack on your transness, it is an honest question. And it isnt one YouTube can answer.

But hey, like you said, you are tired of explaining even though you keep saying "What would you like me to explain, truly? I am listening." and "I am more than willing to listen and explain" but apparently not... 

My body has caused me distress, more than I could put into words, but that does not mean my body is any less male because it does not fit society's standards for maleness. I am a man because that is what I am, that is what I've always been. What we associate with gender is learned, through years and years and years of socialization, and we all end up internalizing it - internalizing these harmful ideas of what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman. Cisgender isn't the ideal, it is merely one way to be. And gender is not determined by what parts you have or how you choose to express yourself, it's determined by who you are on the inside. It's something... innate, to most people. 

What caused me most distress about certain parts of my body was the associations tied to them but the more comfortable I grew with myself and my identity as a man, the more comfortable I became with some of them. My chest, it doesn't cause me distress because it's 'female' - it causes me distress because it isn't me. My front hole? I am more than happy with that part of my body, and most of the dysphoria I experience from it is due to cisnormative and transphobic remarks or ideas.

You need to learn to move away from these ideas, to unlearn what you've been told about gender and its binary nature, and listen to trans people and their experiences. That's the only way you'd learn. It's the only way I learned, it's the only way I dismantled the ideas that caused me so much....anguish. 

 

And while it's not my job to educate you, I am truly happy to answer questions - if they were formed as questions rather than statements meant to shed doubt on the existence of transgender and gender non-conforming people. If you were genuine, I apologize, but your language was truly harmful. 

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So, i was right. In your opinion body parts mean nothing about gender. How exactly are we to define our selves then? So, a large tan feline with a big bushy brown mane should be called, what? Lion is male defining but we have no idea what that creature defines themselves as. Or does this thinking only apply to humans? 

None of my questions were statements. None of them shed doubt on the existence of Trans or non-gender conforming people. None of it was harmful language. 

The man in the videos YOU posted defined Transgender as what i quoted, yet you seem to want to attack me personally over it. If you post something as a learning tool and dont actually fit their definition of what they are speaking about, how does that in any way help to inform people about YOUR situation. 

You keep stating all trans people are different, yet want all non-trans people to completely ignore hundreds of thousands of years of definitions of body parts. 

I wouldn't say you are trans. Simply because, aside from your breasts, you are "more than happy" with your body. From everything i have been told, read, watched, and heard a trans person is at odds with their body. They simply feel like they are in the wrong one. If i am wrong on this, I'm sure you will let me know. But if i am, then everything i have ever been told about trans people is also wrong. Perhaps there needs to be a new term for people who are at odds with one body gender part of their body but not others.

Edited by Drake1 Nightfire
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15 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, i was right. In your opinion body parts mean nothing about gender. How exactly are we to define our selves then? So, a large tan feline with a big bushy brown mane should be called, what? Lion is male defining but we have no idea what that creature defines themselves as. Or does this thinking only apply to humans?

https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2012/10/09/rare-maned-lionesses-explained/

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5 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

i suppose i should have added the cismale body parts swinging between their legs, but that would make me cisnormative and defining gender and we all have to be non-binary in this day and age and forget we have body parts.

So, if our genitals don't define what our gender is, why do some trans people have surgery to shape their bodies to the cisgender they associate with? Why not just leave a pee hole and be done with gender? 

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3 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

i suppose i should have added the cismale body parts swinging between their legs, but that would make me cisnormative and defining gender and we all have to be non-binary in this day and age and forget we have body parts.

So, if our genitals don't define what our gender is, why do some trans people have surgery to shape their bodies to the cisgender they associate with? Why not just leave a pee hole and be done with gender? 

Are you really asking? Or just being argumentative?

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3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Its funny how you can say you didnt attack anyone but when we say the same you say we are wrong and we did attack you.... And you kind of did have to explain when you kept saying "ask and i will explain." 

It is due to some queer self justifying logic (not gender queer, usual queer) that puts you into a defensive position...

"I was attacked, I have the right to lash back"

... yeah it's that damn simple to trick yourself into feeling innocent about aggression.

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14 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Are you really asking? Or just being argumentative?

Do you see question marks? That would be a question. The OP has stated that body parts have nothing to do with what gender you are. I have asked several questions of them and gotten attacked in return. And told i was invalidating their existence for asking ANY questions. How dare I not know everything to do with their situation without ever having met or spoken with them. 

You keep backing every word they post, and to me it seems like you only do it because they are trans. Don't back people blindly. Actually read their words and apply logic to them. 

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2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Do you see question marks? That would be a question. The OP has stated that body parts have nothing to do with what gender you are. I have asked several questions of them and gotten attacked in return. And told i was invalidating their existence for asking ANY questions. How dare I not know everything to do with their situation without ever having met or spoken with them. 

You keep backing every word they post, and to me it seems like you only do it because they are trans. Don't back people blindly. Actually read their words and apply logic to them. 

No..I back them because I am a Trans ally. Period. 

Your question: 

26 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, if our genitals don't define what our gender is, why do some trans people have surgery to shape their bodies to the cisgender they associate with? Why not just leave a pee hole and be done with gender?

I’m glad you included the word “some”. It makes providing an answer a bit simpler.

From the beginning: counter to what several have stated in this thread, “Trans” and “gender” in this context are not binary, but are a “spectrum”. Each individual is different. Some elect for surgery, some do not - for many, surgery is out of reach (whether financially, health reasons, or psychologist signoff needed, or..you get the idea).

For those who do seek surgery, the why may be simple: they want their body to match their gender. I’m sorry that isn’t obvious. I’ve over-simplified it.

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6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

No..I back them because I am a Trans ally. Period. 

Bad choice and argument, Lion.

I back friendly individuals with good ideas, you however just fell for Geek Social Fallacy N°1 ( explained here )

Edited by Fionalein
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2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Tone and presentation matters, especially in a forum Love - much to my irritation.

It’s difficult to understand why people participate in a discussion if they are not enjoying it.

I’m quite sorry if my apparent tone has caused you or anyone distress. I’ll try to work on that. I wonder if those asking very, very insensitive questions of the OP realize that their tone is one that is also very distressing?

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2 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Bad choice and argument, Lion.

I back friendly individuals with good ideas, you however just fell for Geek Social Fallacy N°1 ( explained here )

It’s almost as if you don’t believe me, that’s sad. But I am being honest.

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6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It’s difficult to understand why people participate in a discussion if they are not enjoying it.

Huh? I enjoy being the nanny with the raised index finger, now go go to the corner and come back after thinking about it, Lion ;).

As a more serious explanation: by keeping thread aggressiveness down we can make threads live longer and actually have a discussion (it's no discussion when everyone is yelling)... that is why the tone of the original post was questioned.

 

Edited by Fionalein
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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I wouldn't say you are trans. Simply because, aside from your breasts, you are "more than happy" with your body. From everything i have been told, read, watched, and heard a trans person is at odds with their body. They simply feel like they are in the wrong one.

Your persistent questioning and invalidation of the OP's identity is starting to come across as harassment.

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

If i am wrong on this, I'm sure you will let me know.

You're wrong.

If a person's lived reality falls outside of your own experience and understanding, it's pertinent to listen to them (and the OP has already gone to great length to explain his identity to you) and not just keep talking down, invalidating, and making it about you.

If you simply can't be arsed to understand, why not just move on?

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1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

that is why the tone of the original post was questioned.

Fine, 13 pages in - I believe the Trans folk and allies have provided a lot of information. I choose not to focus on what you did - because I interpreted it differently. Am I allowed, please with sugar on it?

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1 minute ago, LexxiXhan said:

Your persistent questioning and invalidation of the OP's identity is starting to come across as harassment.

It’s odd how they get to pretend their statements and questions are innocent. But our informational responses are somehow aggressive! Wheeee! 

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3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It’s difficult to understand why people participate in a discussion if they are not enjoying it.

I’m quite sorry if my apparent tone has caused you or anyone distress. I’ll try to work on that. I wonder if those asking very, very insensitive questions of the OP realize that their tone is one that is also very distressing?

I was not referring to your tone and presentation.

I am not certain if you have noticed but when I am calm, my posts tend to have an almost clinical air to them. There is a reason for that and part of your response deals with that reason.

Having read through this thread thus far - minus a few posts made by those who regularly engage in questionable tactics - I have personally found very little in the way of insensitive or distressing posts/responses. That however is from my own perspective and while reading/responding in a very detached manner.

Some responses could have perhaps been better phrased and that goes all the way around and includes the OP. From my perspective ... you're not one of the ones that needs to do much work on their phrasing.

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Just now, Solar Legion said:

From my perspective ... you're not one of the ones that needs to do much work on their phrasing.

Thank you! I’m trying very hard.

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8 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

Your persistent questioning and invalidation of the OP's identity is starting to come across as harassment.

You're wrong.

If a person's lived reality falls outside of your own experience and understanding, it's pertinent to listen to them (and the OP has already gone to great length to explain his identity to you) and not just keep talking down, invalidating, and making it about you.

If you simply can't be arsed to understand, why not just move on?

I question it because the video playlist they provided as information about Transgender is completely at odds with what they say they feel with their own body. The man in the video states several times "Transgender people are at odds with the body they were born in." Full stop. If the OP is more than happy with their body how, by the definition they provided, can they possibly be transgender? Or is it simply, every transgender person is trans because they say so and there really aren't any definitions. 

Well gee, I made it about me by asking questions when the OP said to? Umm, what? 

 

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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Thank you! I’m trying very hard.

It shows and still being brutally honest about the only thing I can say you may need to work on .... is looking at posts/responses with a more detached point of view.

You have tried to be informative and neutral. Not everyone has and the last few responses made while I typed up my post above show this with absolute clarity/certainty.

From where I've sat, this has been a running theme: Questions have been met with veiled hostility and some have likely conflated the stances, views and attitudes of those posting together - which is likely part of the reason for the veiled hostility.

Some of those who have asked questions may have ulterior motives, many simply do not and wish merely to understand. It is the unfortunate nature of the Human Mind to be unable to ask the questions it wishes to ask simply because of a lack of information.

On this topic much of that information is subjective instead of objective and due to this, no matter how much information is presented .... Well suffice it to say that most information you can present will not fit everyone's view or experience. When and where there is empirical data, present it and move on as anything else is anecdotal.

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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 

So, if our genitals don't define what our gender is, why do some trans people have surgery to shape their bodies to the cisgender they associate with? Why not just leave a pee hole and be done with gender? 

Maybe because legal gender does exist and it's a legal requirement in many jurisdictions to have genital surgery before the gender marker on identification can be changed?

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