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10 hours ago, Phorumities said:

drop their pants and take a look.

if they identify with whats down there, they are cis,  if they don't, they are trans.

Thats all there is.

While its true some some people are born with ambiguous genetalia, i would guess the vast majority of trans people have normal genetalia. When their mind doesn't match their body is where the term "trans sexual" comes from

So, you say that people can be divided into exactly two genders using a criteria which you say doesn't necessarily divide itself into two unambiguous categories? Bold choice...

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I don't mind your response at all!

12 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

neurodiversity and gender diversity aren't 'disorders', but things that should be included.

I fall under the neurodiversity category and i respectfully disagree that gender diversity is not a disorder. That is my personal opinion and not meant to harm or insult anyone. To get back to neurodiversity. In your reasoning my disorder and it's effects should be accepted as well. That would not be wise considering the personality traits that come with my case. 

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1 minute ago, Jules Catlyn said:

In your reasoning my disorder and it's effects should be accepted as well. That would not be wise considering the personality traits that come with my case. 

I concede that I don't know the details of your particular circumstances.

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26 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

I hope you don't mind my response: neurodiversity and gender diversity aren't 'disorders', but things that should be included.

given what Jules has mentioned about themselves personally them I think they are meaning "disorder" in the clinical sense. Which is understandable given their own condition

i agree with your general point tho, as it does highlight the use of the word "disorder" by some clinicians to describe variations in human anatomy

Edited by ellestones
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4 hours ago, LexxiXhan said:

Which is fine. You have a preference for cis gender men. Trans men and trans women are perfectly aware that some people have a preference for cis folk.

Well, they're not meaningless. Not to the people who live those identities and have an understanding of themselves in relation to the world and people around them. Maybe you mean they just don't mean very much to you?

Apparently if there is a group of 10,000 people, they can define themselves as 10,000 different genders. THAT'S pretty meaningless

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I have one big thing, to ask. Isn't non-binary, meaning you don't feel as if you identify as either gender? So would it not be more appropriate to put yourself under a totally different category from "transgender"?  That and I know for a fact, that cross-dressing denotes a and I use the term lightly, a cis person, who likes to dress up as the opposite gender. That and I know for a fact, that trans is literally short for transitioning gender. So either mtf or ftm. I don't know about you if I was either of these, I would rather be in another category,  to gain more awareness for that specifically. But that is just how I see it. Let me elaborate when you are a trans person. You are literally looking in the mirror, or even at yourself, and going, I'm not male, or I'm not female. I was born in the wrong body, and with the wrong gender.

Edited by halebore Aeon

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4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I didn't say anything about that... I was talking about your physical body or in SLs case your pixel one. I asked... Why would you want to have an actual representation of your physical body if you are trans? Wouldn't you just let the body you identify as shine through in SL? You keep saying you are male, yet you have a female av in SL (with male bits i assume). If as you say, you are male, why bother with the female av? Why not just get a male one?

You have said you were born with a female body, i think.. Ah, yes, its in your profile. "No, I wasn't 'born' a girl, I was assigned female at birth." Quick question about that, if you were born with a female body, and you had a female mind, would you still say you were "assigned female at birth" or would you say you were female? Cuz to me anyway, that sounds a lot like you had a female body but the doctors should really have known you were a male mind in a female body and done something about it as soon as you popped out. 

You say in your profile you are a boy with a... cat... Why? If you identify as male, why not be male? This is the confusing crap  us LGBT supporters and even the non supported get confused about, especially when the reply is along the lines of, "I don't have to conform to societies standards." This may be true, but logic has some questions... 

Trans people resent that a doctor at their birth, looked at their privates and said yep that' s a (insert boy or girl here)

They resent being labelled before their minds could mature enough to tell everyone what they really are. Except what they really are is transgendered. and we know that from what's on the birth certificate.

Maybe we should just leave sex/gender blank on the birth certificate. Then when they turn 18 they can fill it in themselves.

 

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2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So, you say that people can be divided into exactly two genders using a criteria which you say doesn't necessarily divide itself into two unambiguous categories? Bold choice...

I never said nature was perfect, sometimes it messes up, sometimes things go wrong, and we are unable to tell if its a boy or a girl with 100% certainty.

But one thing is certain, whatever we decide, its either cis or trans.

I personally think it's wrong to do corrective surgery on a newborn, and force it to be one sex or the other.

Look at what happened to that poor boy that had his dingaling burned off during a botched circumcision and was raised a girl.

I also think circumcision is wrong, so what do I know?

Edited by Phorumities
stupid censor won't let me use adult words
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2 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

I never said nature was perfect, sometimes it messes up, sometimes things go wrong, and we are unable to tell if its a boy or a girl with 100% certainty.

But one thing is certain, whatever we decide, its either cis or trans.

I personally think it's wrong to do corrective surgery on a newborn, and force it to be one sex or the other.

Look at what happened to that poor boy that had his dingaling burned off during a botched circumcision and was raised a girl.

I also think circumcision is wrong, so what do I know?

Both the boy, who had the botched circumcision, and his brother shot themselves. I forget at what age, he also felt that he was a boy and not a girl, so basically had to transition right back. 

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1 minute ago, halebore Aeon said:

Both the boy, who had the botched circumcision, and his brother shot themselves. I forget at what age, he also felt that he was a boy and not a girl, so basically had to transition right back. 

It was tragic, a sad tale and a sad ending. 

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1 minute ago, Phorumities said:

It was tragic, a sad tale and a sad ending. 

It was, but it was also a way for John Money, to force the idea of gender theory, by using two boys, in his little experiment. I really didn't agree with his methodology, let's use a boy, who had a botched circumcision, give him hormone blockers and estrogen, and tell little David, he is a girl. Just to prove my theory as correct.

Edited by halebore Aeon

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Ok, here is my last word. I wish we lived in a culture where boys and girls (and men and women) could  express themselves exactly how they wished to express themselves. It easier being a girl, because if she's a "tomboy" it's considered just a phase and cute. But if a boy shows any feminine traits, he's a sissy, not a real boy, and it's something to be concerned about. It's a shame people can't be in touch with their "other" side and express it as they wish to express it. It's a shame everyone has to conform to expected norms. Anyone straying from what's expected can expect to be ridiculed, verbally abused, even physically attacked, and all just for being what they feel they are, for what they want to be.

There are male and female aspects in all of us. Which we chose to express more strongly should be our choice and our choice alone.

I've declared myself to be a Libertarian in here, and for that I've been ridiculed, told it's not a "real" belief system, its not "mature" or "sophisticated" enough. But if everyone lived their lives on Libertarian principles, everyone's lives would be much better off.

A Libertarian would say, it doesn't matter if you are cis or trans, you are living your life as you wish to live it, and you aren't harming anyone else. 

This thread has truly run its course, nothing more can be gained from posting in it.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Ok, here is my last word. I wish we lived in a culture where boys and girls (and men and women) could  express themselves exactly how they wished to express themselves. It easier being a girl, because if she's a "tomboy" it's considered just a phase and cute. But if a boy shows any feminine traits, he's a sissy, not a real boy, and it's something to be concerned about. It's a shame people can't be in touch with their "other" side and express it as they wish to express it. It's a shame everyone has to conform to expected norms. Anyone straying from what's expected can expect to be ridiculed, verbally abused, even physically attacked, and all just for being what they feel they are, for what they want to be.

There are male and female aspects in all of us. Which we chose to express more strongly should be our choice and our choice alone.

I've declared myself to be a Libertarian in here, and for that I've been ridiculed, told it's not a "real" belief system, its not "mature" or "sophisticated" enough. But if everyone lived their lives on Libertarian principles, everyone's lives would be much better off.

A Libertarian would say, it doesn't matter if you are cis or trans, you are living your life as you wish to live it, and you aren't harming anyone else. 

This thread has truly run its course, nothing more can be gained from posting in it.

 

 

I totally agree with you, I have one thing to add. We are all human beings, there is no need to fight, or even attack each other, based on different opinions. Embrace yourself, for you who are, embrace your individualism, and just be you. 

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7 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I didn't say anything about that... I was talking about your physical body or in SLs case your pixel one. I asked... Why would you want to have an actual representation of your physical body if you are trans? Wouldn't you just let the body you identify as shine through in SL? You keep saying you are male, yet you have a female av in SL (with male bits i assume). If as you say, you are male, why bother with the female av? Why not just get a male one?

You have said you were born with a female body, i think.. Ah, yes, its in your profile. "No, I wasn't 'born' a girl, I was assigned female at birth." Quick question about that, if you were born with a female body, and you had a female mind, would you still say you were "assigned female at birth" or would you say you were female? Cuz to me anyway, that sounds a lot like you had a female body but the doctors should really have known you were a male mind in a female body and done something about it as soon as you popped out. 

You say in your profile you are a boy with a... cat... Why? If you identify as male, why not be male? This is the confusing crap  us LGBT supporters and even the non supported get confused about, especially when the reply is along the lines of, "I don't have to conform to societies standards." This may be true, but logic has some questions... 

I've explained it in earlier replies.

No two transgender people share the same experience. Some transition in every aspect of their lives, some choose to transition socially and not medically, some choose to have top surgery and no bottom surgery, and some choose to go on hormones while others choose not to. 

I am transgender, I was born in what you are calling a 'female' body but it is my body and there's nothing female about it. I don't need to look like a cisgender man to be a man, I already am one. 

You are reinforcing the idea that trans people have to look or act a certain way to be valid, and that's toxic not just to binary trans people but to non-binary ones, too. And even cis people who don't conform to society's idea of gender. 

And to answer your question: no, my avatar doesn't have a *****. There's nothing inherently masculine about *****es, and I am quite comfortable with what I have down there. 

This, having an avatar that doesn't fit the cisnormative idea of maleness, validates my identity and alleviates a lot of my dysphoria. It challenges the idea that we have to aspire to look cis, as if cis is some ideal. No, cis is not an ideal - it's just one some people exist in this world - and that's not my experience and that's not what makes me feel good.

You are asking me why I don't have a male avatar? I do. OfDragonFire is male, whether or not he fits your idea of what a man should look like.

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6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Somehow I don't think OfDragonFire wants to attempt to explain it to you, given the unwelcoming vibe of this thread.

But maybe I can...perhaps he wants to be true to himself...to be in SL as he is in RL...and that true identity would be a person with a woman's body who feels he is a male, or partially so, or landing somewhere along some non-binary definition of that continuum.  Perhaps he wants to be accepted as that both in RL and SL.

I am actually quite binary, haha, but you're absolutely right. 

Well, to an extent - I am not comfortable with my chest, never was. But having an avatar/character who is comfortable with his body, and is 100%  male helps alleviate a lot of the distress and remind me that there's nothing inherently feminine about it. I am a man, therefore my body is male. I am not on hormones in real life to be 'more of a man', I m on hormones so I could feel good in my own skin. I am not having top surgery because I want too look 'masculine', I am having it because my chest is a huge source of distress for me and it never felt like it belonged there. 

There's no one way to be a man, and being cis or passing as cis is just one way to be that.

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It is baffling, how my words managed to get twisted into something they are not.

All I did is share my experience and ask for people going through the same thing to find me, so we could create a space that's safe for us and supportive. 

Yet, instead of sharing this thread with people who might benefit from it, you managed to turn it into a war-zone where our existence and identities are being debated,

Where people who have no idea what it means to be transgender define us and redefine us and ignore our voices. Where explaining things is and pointing out why they were wrong or harmful is misconstrued into something they never were. Where we are being told to be 'polite' and turn the other cheek while people insist on erasing us out of existence. 

And then demand an explanation for something I've explained more times than I can count throughout the thread, and if I don't respond I am 'rude' and 'unwelcoming'

And when I do respond, my words are twisted and taken out of context. 

This, this is exactly why this post was needed. Why that group is needed. Because so many people claim to be genuine in their want to learn, only to argue rather than listen, insist that we are the sum of our parts or that we don't exist whatsoever.

If any of you want to learn, here's a helpful playlist on youtube, made by an actual trans person. It's a good place to start. 

 

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Sh

4 hours ago, Phorumities said:

Trans people resent that a doctor at their birth, looked at their privates and said yep that' s a (insert boy or girl here)

They resent being labelled before their minds could mature enough to tell everyone what they really are. Except what they really are is transgendered. and we know that from what's on the birth certificate.

Maybe we should just leave sex/gender blank on the birth certificate. Then when they turn 18 they can fill it in themselves.

 

Please do not speak on behalf of all transgendered people.

Besides a negligible, miniscule percentage of people who are born with an unclear gender or are hermaphrodite, everybody else falls into the category of either male or female. Nothing will ever change that and to believe otherwise is short-sighted and blinkered. You can have all the operations to alter the exterior shell, but the internals are what they are.

As your mind and body develop and you become dissatisfied with your naturally chosen gender and wish to change, then go right ahead.

However, please do not shout from the rooftops and wave banners about not being accepted, that simply makes things worse. In general people do not like things being shoved down their throats and being told how to think, how to be, or how to believe or behave.

I live in a country where transgenderism is commonplace (Thailand) and have many friends who are ladyboys. I know literally 100's of ladyboys and non object to that term, it is widely used. Even in this country where ladyboys are commonly seen they are not completely accepted, it can be difficult. They are often belittled and, in the opinions of far too many, best suited for entertainment purposes in some form or other. More often than not the most beautiful girl in the room is a ladyboy.

I know many who began their journeys at a very young age, perhaps as young as 6 years old. Well before puberty they began taking female hormones so their male characteristics never took hold. Asians are generally smaller than westerners and even young asian men can be very pretty, so they make very beautiful ladyboys.

I sometimes sympathise with the western world where access to female hormones at a young age is restricted, ideally pre-puberty, but maybe things are changing.

p.s. I was born in Thailand, but grew up and was educated in England, hence my English. I now live in Thailand again.

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34 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

It is baffling, how my words managed to get twisted into something they are not.

All I did is share my experience and ask for people going through the same thing to find me, so we could create a space that's safe for us and supportive. 

Yet, instead of sharing this thread with people who might benefit from it, you managed to turn it into a war-zone where our existence and identities are being debated

Just to point out one last thing before I walk away from this thread entirely. Your not innocent of the things you are claiming here. You are the first person in this thread who took something someone else said to mean something it didn't and then ran with it condemning and judging them for it (9 posts in if you are wondering). Before that there was nothing of the sort. If you want to point the finger of blame at everyone involved then start by pointing them at yourself. 

Peace im out

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1 hour ago, OfDragonFire said:

I've explained it in earlier replies.

No two transgender people share the same experience. Some transition in every aspect of their lives, some choose to transition socially and not medically, some choose to have top surgery and no bottom surgery, and some choose to go on hormones while others choose not to. 

I am transgender, I was born in what you are calling a 'female' body but it is my body and there's nothing female about it. I don't need to look like a cisgender man to be a man, I already am one. 

You are reinforcing the idea that trans people have to look or act a certain way to be valid, and that's toxic not just to binary trans people but to non-binary ones, too. And even cis people who don't conform to society's idea of gender. 

And to answer your question: no, my avatar doesn't have a *****. There's nothing inherently masculine about *****es, and I am quite comfortable with what I have down there. 

This, having an avatar that doesn't fit the cisnormative idea of maleness, validates my identity and alleviates a lot of my dysphoria. It challenges the idea that we have to aspire to look cis, as if cis is some ideal. No, cis is not an ideal - it's just one some people exist in this world - and that's not my experience and that's not what makes me feel good.

You are asking me why I don't have a male avatar? I do. OfDragonFire is male, whether or not he fits your idea of what a man should look like.

Yep, I'm more confused than ever now.. 

You are saying you are male because you say so and you body is male because you say so even though it has ZERO "cisnormative" male attributes, yes? So, what you are really saying is we as humans need to do away entirely with the thought of bodies having gender and simply rely on what someone says their gender is?

Cool, so no more definitions of gender are needed folks. What matters is what you say. There is no more female or male parts, please remove that gender bias from the MP, LL. No more male or female skins. 

Why is it that the rest of the trans people in this thread have been helpful, informative and kind, yet you have attacked people from the get go? I mean, i asked a serious question that confused me as a straight male. You attacked in response. If you cant handle people asking legitimate questions, you have bigger issues. And saying we should do research and watch YouTube videos to learn rather than answering a few questions in a thread about the subject at hand that YOU started is childish and really really smacks of you just being a flaming troll. It has really come off as you starting a  thread with a very controversial topic just to start trouble.  

It saddens me that you say people attacked you when all they did was ask a question. Not even questions that were hurtful or mean, honest questions. But hey, if i post a thread about my sexuality, i would have no problems answering questions. And before you jump down my throat with "You are cis, there isn't any issues there!!!" You really have no ideas what my sexuality is. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Yep, I'm more confused than ever now.. 

You are saying you are male because you say so and you body is male because you say so even though it has ZERO "cisnormative" male attributes, yes? So, what you are really saying is we as humans need to do away entirely with the thought of bodies having gender and simply rely on what someone says their gender is?

Cool, so no more definitions of gender are needed folks. What matters is what you say. There is no more female or male parts, please remove that gender bias from the MP, LL. No more male or female skins. 

Why is it that the rest of the trans people in this thread have been helpful, informative and kind, yet you have attacked people from the get go? I mean, i asked a serious question that confused me as a straight male. You attacked in response. If you cant handle people asking legitimate questions, you have bigger issues. And saying we should do research and watch YouTube videos to learn rather than answering a few questions in a thread about the subject at hand that YOU started is childish and really really smacks of you just being a flaming troll. It has really come off as you starting a  thread with a very controversial topic just to start trouble.  

It saddens me that you say people attacked you when all they did was ask a question. Not even questions that were hurtful or mean, honest questions. But hey, if i post a thread about my sexuality, i would have no problems answering questions. And before you jump down my throat with "You are cis, there isn't any issues there!!!" You really have no ideas what my sexuality is. 

 

I did not attack you, I explained. I didn't have to, but I did. If you wish to twist my words and intention and call them an attack, then there's nothing I can do for you.

All I could say is this: our existence is not a 'controversial topic' nor is it up for anyone to debate. 

I've been doing nothing but responding to everyone's questions and getting accused of being impolite for clarifying misconceptions, and it's exhausting.

If you truly wanted to learn, you would listen. You would actually read what we've been saying. And you would appreciate that I took the time out to provide you with a good resource to start your research from.

I don't need to sit here and watch you invalidate my existence and the existence of people who are not cis. I don't need to take this, but I am, because you claimed you wanted to learn. So, prove it. Do your research and come to me with legitimate questions, not arguments against our existence. 

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36 minutes ago, chibiusa Ling said:

Just to point out one last thing before I walk away from this thread entirely. Your not innocent of the things you are claiming here. You are the first person in this thread who took something someone else said to mean something it didn't and then ran with it condemning and judging them for it (9 posts in if you are wondering). Before that there was nothing of the sort. If you want to point the finger of blame at everyone involved then start by pointing them at yourself. 

Peace im out

I never claimed to be innocent. And I have admitted that I could have handled some of the earlier conversations better but I wasn't attacking, I was responding. Maybe my frustration did seep in later in the earlier posts, but it is frustrating when people twist your intentions and call it an attack just because you weren't milder in your language. This is how I speak, it is not an attack, it's just the way I word things. ?

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51 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

I did not attack you, I explained. I didn't have to, but I did. If you wish to twist my words and intention and call them an attack, then there's nothing I can do for you.

All I could say is this: our existence is not a 'controversial topic' nor is it up for anyone to debate. 

I've been doing nothing but responding to everyone's questions and getting accused of being impolite for clarifying misconceptions, and it's exhausting.

If you truly wanted to learn, you would listen. You would actually read what we've been saying. And you would appreciate that I took the time out to provide you with a good resource to start your research from.

I don't need to sit here and watch you invalidate my existence and the existence of people who are not cis. I don't need to take this, but I am, because you claimed you wanted to learn. So, prove it. Do your research and come to me with legitimate questions, not arguments against our existence. 

Its funny how you can say you didnt attack anyone but when we say the same you say we are wrong and we did attack you.... And you kind of did have to explain when you kept saying "ask and i will explain." 

If you really think the subject of sexuality and gender isnt controversial in this day and age...

Thats because you were being impolite and attacking people. You seem to have lumped the actual questions in with the couple of people who were actually attacking you.. 

I have listened, your view of what being trans is, does not conform to what the gentleman n the videos series you posted states being trans is. So, i'm curious as to why you posted it. He states "Transgender is: when your gender identity does not match the gender you are assigned at birth." He then goes on to say as an example, "because you have a pen is you are male and that does not match how they feel inside."

What defines a legitimate question?
You have stated that you are comfortable in your body as a man even though it does not have cis male parts.. This is what confuses me. What exactly makes you feel male? This isnt an attack on your transness, it is an honest question. And it isnt one YouTube can answer.

But hey, like you said, you are tired of explaining even though you keep saying "What would you like me to explain, truly? I am listening." and "I am more than willing to listen and explain" but apparently not... 

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47 minutes ago, OfDragonFire said:

I never claimed to be innocent. And I have admitted that I could have handled some of the earlier conversations better but I wasn't attacking, I was responding. Maybe my frustration did seep in later in the earlier posts, but it is frustrating when people twist your intentions and call it an attack just because you weren't milder in your language. This is how I speak, it is not an attack, it's just the way I word things. ?

So other people ask questions and it's an attack. Cause you get to define things for them.

Other people feel attacked by your style and it's not an attack. Cause you get to define things for yourself.

Can you see how this is a bit confusing for the rest of us?

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