KanryDrago Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Innula Zenovka said: Sorry, but I think that's not a particularly good analysis of why the BNP failed. To my mind, many of the people who voted for the BNP were people who would normally have voted Labour but were fed up with Labour councils which, because they were in safe Labour areas, didn't bother to do much for their local constituents. They voted BNP not because they agreed with them particularly but because that was the best way to register a protest that would be noticed nationally. The BNP "surge" collapsed after a couple of years, as such surges always do, partly because the BNP started feuding within itself, partly because local Labour parties by and large got the message and councillors started doing more, partly because BNP councillors proved, to a man and woman, to be hopeless, and partly because UKIP (which is now itself collapsing) became the new home for both disenchanted Labour and Conservative supporters). Except if you look at the bnp polling before and after the question time appearance their support takes a rapid nose dive. I accept what you are saying about it being mostly labour voters however the point is that up until they got publicity for their views they could attract those people. Once people saw those views laid out then they said no thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Crisp Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, LifeOfSheree said: It was brought to my attention within Second Life circles on Facebook that there is a group involving a role play group for black slavery set on American principles. As a point of fact - Slavery *violates* modern-day American Principles. We concluded a bloody civil war to end it in 1865 and the vast majority of the people who won the war to abolish that intolerable practice were not themselves of African descent. Edited October 24, 2018 by AmandaKeen 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, KanryDrago said: Except if you look at the bnp polling before and after the question time appearance their support takes a rapid nose dive. I accept what you are saying about it being mostly labour voters however the point is that up until they got publicity for their views they could attract those people. Once people saw those views laid out then they said no thanks The sequence of events was that the BNP started winning council seats and their leader got himself elected to the European Parliament. That led the BBC to invite him on to Question Time. I would say that the fall in their popularity after that was primarily for the reasons I outlined, and would have happened regardless of whether the Question Time broadcast had taken place (partly because I remember seeing a similar pattern with the BNP's predecessor, the National Front). I find it very difficult to believe many people who voted for them didn't know what they were all about and voted for them anyway. Quite possibly Nick Griffin's performance on Question Time didn't help his party, but I don't think things would have turned out differently had he not appeared on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 16 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: Turning the question around first of all Should people be allowed to write novels around those subjects? As people do and even make films on the same subjects such as Mississipi burning then I would ask what you see the difference as. Both are fiction. Personally while I find most of them repugnant I wouldn't call for a ban on them. If they aren't against TOS. The reason is simple. You don't stop these people thinking like that and no platforming really doesnt change any minds. However when you let them expose themselves to scrutiny people start to point and laugh which does more to disrupt them than anything. A good example from the UK was the British National Party, a fairly racist lot. They for years were no platformed and got to the point where they had elected MEP's. Then question time (a main stream political program) allowed their leader on against all those shouting that they shouldn't give them publicity. End result was the collapse of the BNP as people got to see what an utter tit the guy and his party were To argue that the BNP's election result in 2009 and subsequent decline were because of no platforming, makes very little sense. They have been consistently no platformed for the majority of their miserable existence... after all why would anyone in their right mind want to be at an event with them? To say the Question time platform the BBC gave after their 2009 election result, exposed them and led to their decline is over simplisitic and simply false. Their popularity actually went up by most counts after the BBC program, albeit just by one percentage point. The following year in the local elections they increased their share of the vote from the preceding local elections by a small amount. The popularity and decline of the BNP in that period was to do with other factors, far more convincingly the expansion of EEA immigration, although that too is an oversimplification. No platform generally works, no ones freedom of speech is inhibited or compromised. No right minded person wants to share a platform with racist idiots anyway, so why should they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanryDrago Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Aethelwine said: To argue that the BNP's election result in 2009 and subsequent decline were because of no platforming, makes very little sense. They have been consistently no platformed for the majority of their miserable existence... after all why would anyone in their right mind want to be at an event with them? To say the Question time platform the BBC gave after their 2009 election result, exposed them and led to their decline is over simplisitic and simply false. Their popularity actually went up by most counts after the BBC program, albeit just by one percentage point. The following year in the local elections they increased their share of the vote from the preceding local elections by a small amount. The popularity and decline of the BNP in that period was to do with other factors, far more convincingly the expansion of EEA immigration, although that too is an oversimplification. No platform generally works, no ones freedom of speech is inhibited or compromised. No right minded person wants to share a platform with racist idiots anyway, so why should they. I didnt say it was because of no platforming what I said was people hadnt realised yet what idiots these people were due to them not having it exposed due to no platforming. No platforming never works it just gives them another grievance which they can point at and tell people "Look they are so scared that people will agree with what we say they wont let us talk" that brings the gullible to their door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 28 minutes ago, Aethelwine said: To say the Question time platform the BBC gave after their 2009 election result, exposed them and led to their decline is over simplisitic and simply false. Their popularity actually went up by most counts after the BBC program, albeit just by one percentage point. The following year in the local elections they increased their share of the vote from the preceding local elections by a small amount. The Question Time broadcast was about this time of year in 2009. According to Wikipedia Quote About four BNP councillors resigned at the end of 2009, leaving the party with 54 councillors by 2010. In the May 2010 local elections, 26 BNP councillors lost their seats, leaving the party with 28 seats overall. In Barking and Dagenham, the party lost all 12 seats won in 2006. In the 2011 local elections, the BNP fielded 268 candidates and defended 13 council seats. It lost 11 of these seats, including all 5 of their councillors in Stoke-on-Trent. Two councillors were re-elected, one in Queensbury, West Yorkshire, and the other in Charnwood, Leicestershire, but no new seats were gained. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party_election_results#Local_elections So I think there's no doubt that when Nick Griffin appeared on Question Time, the BNP was at the height of its political fortunes and its support collapsed the following year. The question is how much of this reversal can be attributed to the BBC programme. As I've said, I think their support would have decreased regardless of the broadcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nalates Urriah Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Very few people know any of the actual history of slavery in America. All they have in their minds are various sound bits provided by their favorite echo chamber sources. Unfortunately a significant number of these chambers and media are anti-American and add their spin to the story. Add to that schools and colleges teaching only the history that supports a liberal agenda and anti-American beliefs means few have any real knowledge. How to Understand Slavery and the American Founding The concept of slavery in the Bible (source of western moral, ethics, and law) is misunderstood and and misrepresented by secularists and anti-Christian groups. Since it is the founding basis for western society a distortion here distorts everything going forward. Most are uninformed or misinformed. If you want out of that group, you'll have to do some study and research beyond what Google will tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 9 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said: The Question Time broadcast was about this time of year in 2009. According to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party_election_results#Local_elections So I think there's no doubt that when Nick Griffin appeared on Question Time, the BNP was at the height of its political fortunes and its support collapsed the following year. The question is how much of this reversal can be attributed to the BBC programme. As I've said, I think their support would have decreased regardless of the broadcast. Their popularity went up after Question Time: "The first opinion poll taken after Nick Griffin's appearance, conducted hours after the programme by YouGov for The Daily Telegraph, indicated that voter support for the BNP had increased by 1%, from 2% to 3%, in the previous month, and that 22% of voters were now "seriously considering" voting BNP in a future local, general or European election — broken down into "definitely", 4%; "probably", 3%; and "possible", 15%.[60] The bookmaker, William Hill, changed its odds on the BNP winning a Westminster seat in the 2010 General Election from 10-1 to 7-2 after the programme.[49] The BNP received 1.9% of the vote in the election and did not win a seat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_Time_British_National_Party_controversy#Other_reactions_and_analyses It was certainly around the time of their peak in interest, but the immediate reaction by all comparable indices was an increase thanks to the Question Time performance. Comparing euro election results to the fo9llowing years local election results, you are missing the significant difference between the two election formats and what people were voting on. In the 2010 General election they received over 5% of the result and saved their deposit. That they lost Councillors in the local elections is more to do with their Councillors being laughably useless and incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 These topics are such a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: This, pretty much exactly. None of this kind of thing is ever black and white (pun unintended, but probably unavoidable). Part of me would love to engage with these people about the sheer stupidity and evil of the ideology implied by this kind of ugly garbage. But I doubt very much that would achieve much. I might be able to embarrass those who aren't actual white supremacists, but to what end? They're not really the problem anyway, and the idiots who do embrace the racist ideology are hardly going to listen to me. I'd love to see this kind of RP end -- but because the people engaging in it have come to recognize how ugly, stupid, and evil it is, not because it's been banned. The problem isn't the role play: it's the racist attitudes behind it, and while a ban might extinguish the former, it does nothing to address the latter. Bans treat the symptoms, not the disease. The real "answer" is education, in the schools, but also discussion about the issues in public venues (of which this forum is a tiny but not entirely insignificant example). Preach it Sister! Education is the key. It begins at home before the child ever sets foot in a classroom. Everyone needs to learn that just because my skin isn't white, it doesn't mean I am not a human being of equal standing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethelwine Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 56 minutes ago, KanryDrago said: I didnt say it was because of no platforming what I said was people hadnt realised yet what idiots these people were due to them not having it exposed due to no platforming. No platforming never works it just gives them another grievance which they can point at and tell people "Look they are so scared that people will agree with what we say they wont let us talk" that brings the gullible to their door. One more to their list of grievances makes no difference to anyone, it is just another talking point for their apologists. It has nothing to do with not allowing them to talk. The point of no platform is to defend the right of any individual to not appear or participate in a platform with and for racists and to encourage them not to do so. Excuse me for not shedding any tears over a grievance that would deny the rights of others to chose who they appear on a platform with. You aren't defending freedom of speech by forcing people to do what they don't want to. Edited October 24, 2018 by Aethelwine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, LifeOfSheree said: It's disconcerting to see people who cannot tell the difference between a sexual fetish and racial politics where one believes they're are genuinely superior. For the person who called me a bigot, I was using Bull rp as an example but you selectively quoted to push your lies and racial hatred. If this is America's thinking, then I want to see America fall for good. Us indigenous peoples would be more than happy to ship all the immigrants back to the countries of origin of their ancestors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionalein Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said: Us indigenous peoples would be more than happy to ship all the immigrants back to the countries of origin of their ancestors. Stupid question: will your people return to Asia then? Sorry your contribution has the same air of superiority I do not like in no one... Edited October 24, 2018 by Fionalein 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chibiusa Ling Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Klytyna said: You've been here since 2013, I've been here a bit longer, I can't say I've noticed a "tidal wave of racial hatred" in SL, and if such a tidal wave exists, why has it taken you 5 bloody years to find it? This is exactly what I was getting at earlier. Iv been here since early/mid 2007 and I have yet to see a wave of racial hatred spread across the grid. I come across the occasional racist but for the most part in the communities I am part of everyone just gets along and no one gives a figs ass what race a person is. I do agree with you though there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to racism. In my view racism is racism no matter what race its aimed at. 8 minutes ago, janetosilio said: These topics are such a joke. Thanks for your constructive input. We are glad you felt you needed to have an opinion but we do ask that next time you try just a little harder to contribute towards the conversation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Just now, Fionalein said: Stupid question: will your people return to Asia then? Sorry your contribution has the same air of superiority I do not like in no one... It was sarcasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 49 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said: Add to that schools and colleges teaching only the history that supports a liberal agenda and anti-American beliefs means few have any real knowledge. How to Understand Slavery and the American Founding The Heritage Foundation? Please tell me you are joking.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, AmandaKeen said: As a point of fact - Slavery *violates* modern-day American Principles. We concluded a bloody civil war to end it in 1865 and the vast majority of the people who won the war to abolish that intolerable practice were not themselves of African descent. are there any slaves in Second Life? To complain about slavery in SL kind of trivializes modern day slavery that still exists in real life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnek Fang Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I dunno, when I see a Black man/white woman thing, I start to wonder: How many of these people (on either side) are actually alt-right, because holy catfish is this subgroup obsessed with this fetish, to the point that thier go-to insult is slung around so much that you can be forgiven if you mistook them for werechickens. As for Roleplay and Politics, that issue's been around, since, SL8B. I get the feeling that if we can dig around deep enough in the archives, we'd find a lot of the same arguments. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: The Heritage Foundation? Please tell me you are joking.. Guess its not a pro left organization. Did you know evil capitalists created racism in order to keep the working class divided? According to Karl Marx they did. He also said being a labourer was worse than being a slave, because a slave is sold only once, but a labourer sells himself every hour for his pittance in wages. Edited October 24, 2018 by Phorumities added stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Crisp Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 10 minutes ago, Phorumities said: Guess its not a pro left organization. Did you know evil capitalists created racism in order to keep the working class divided? According to Karl Marx they did. Marx went after the wrong people. He focused on Capitalists when the people really pulling the “keep them divided” strings are whatever Ruling Group holds and intends to retain power. Thats not politics or wealth; its a Power thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Gregoire Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 The only real "wave of hatred across the grid" that I can recall, was the wave of extreme dislike of RedZone. If anyone wants to know more search "redzone second life". I don't think anyone who was in SL at the time (2010/11) really wants to rehash that mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, AmandaKeen said: Marx went after the wrong people. He focused on Capitalists when the people really pulling the “keep them divided” strings are whatever Ruling Group holds and intends to retain power. Thats not politics or wealth; its a Power thing. So you are saying racism is NOT a natural condition that has existed since races evolved? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said: The only real "wave of hatred across the grid" that I can recall, was the wave of extreme dislike of RedZone. If anyone wants to know more search "redzone second life". I don't think anyone who was in SL at the time (2010/11) really wants to rehash that mess. Don't forget furries 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionalein Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Just now, Phorumities said: So you are saying racism is NOT a natural condition that has existed since races evolved? ....it is, ever since some weirdo pulled the idea of "races" out of his behinds... races are an abstract concept that first had to be developed, what you mean is xenophobia and well that includes all those you are not familiar with... incuding strangers on the Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorumities Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said: Us indigenous peoples would be more than happy to ship all the immigrants back to the countries of origin of their ancestors. I'm pretty sure Native Americans came to the America from someplace else too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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