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I'm new and I've seen that there are some heads which show facial expressions when on certain furniture or performing animations and some that do not.  Is that a mesh vs classic thing or is there more to it?

 

Sorry if this is an old question, didn't find anything on it specifically when looking.

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7 minutes ago, TerranceJackson said:

I'm new and I've seen that there are some heads which show facial expressions when on certain furniture or performing animations and some that do not.  Is that a mesh vs classic thing or is there more to it?

 

Sorry if this is an old question, didn't find anything on it specifically when looking.

Most (not all) mesh heads will need a hud to work with facial expressions in furniture.  Classic heads should have no problems.  It also depends if the furniture creator has added facial expressions into their furniture set up 

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4 minutes ago, TerranceJackson said:

Oh okay.  Guess now I need to know if their are any good male classic heads.  Seems like they're going the way of the dodo.

Classic head are your “System” head. It can be changed with sliders, skin etc. but you can’t “replace” it. Someone will reply if I am wrong.

Edited by Love Zhaoying

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2 minutes ago, TerranceJackson said:

Oh okay.  Guess now I need to know if their are any good male classic heads.  Seems like they're going the way of the dodo.

well that is all to do with the shape and skin you use.  I am sure there must be some around.  

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44 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

Most (not all) mesh heads will need a hud to work with facial expressions in furniture.

... unless of course you feed bento face animation names instead of expression morph names to the AVFaces plugin (and of course have the animation in the furniture item)... why does no one know this trick?

Edited by Fionalein

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1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

... unless of course you feed bento face animation names instead of expression morph names to the AVFaces plugin (and of course have the animation in the furniture item)... why does no one know this trick?

Because most of that sounded like Greek to me, lol.  Is there a walkthrough anywhere on how I can do that?

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Well bento mesh heads are animated with animations classic heads are animated with something called moprhs...

While you can keep the morphs and program a script to trigger fitting bento animations the reverse is AFAIK not possible. So if you intend to make your furniture bento animated without the need of a HUD you exclude the classic folks...

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42 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Well bento mesh heads are animated with animations classic heads are animated with something called moprhs...

While you can keep the morphs and program a script to trigger fitting bento animations the reverse is AFAIK not possible. So if you intend to make your furniture bento animated without the need of a HUD you exclude the classic folks...

No, I wasn't wanting to do anything like that.  I was just wanting to have a head that showed expressions while on furniture.

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8 hours ago, Fionalein said:

... unless of course you feed bento face animation names instead of expression morph names to the AVFaces plugin (and of course have the animation in the furniture item)... why does no one know this trick?

Ok you got me, I don't know that trick.  I wondered if that was possible but then thought how many mesh heads do you have to accommodate in order to make that work? Surely all the bento names are different for each mesh head?  This is why I love the LAQ heads "Furniture" button

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We're talking three different types of heads here:

system, classic mesh, and bento mesh

All three are animated differently.

In the older furniture with facial animations, the poses were made to animate system heads. Those animations will not work on a classic mesh or bento mesh head.

Classic mesh heads use frames to animate the face. As far as I know, no classic mesh head will respond to any furniture animations, period.

Speed up to Bento mesh heads. Those heads are animated using special bento bones that were added to the system avatar skeleton. System heads do not respond to these bones. The only way to use these bones to animate a face is with a bento mesh head. Newer furniture that has bento facial animations installed will animate bento heads regardless of brand name or style. 

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6 hours ago, Cindy Evanier said:

Ok you got me, I don't know that trick.  I wondered if that was possible but then thought how many mesh heads do you have to accommodate in order to make that work? Surely all the bento names are different for each mesh head?  This is why I love the LAQ heads "Furniture" button

Ah no,  you have to drop the Animation into the furniture and then your head won't matter it might just look strange... keep in mind Utilizator and Mayreal heads have different weights on the eyllids whichmakes them react starnge on usual animations…

Classic mesh heads

great way to refer to them 9_9 because there is absolutely no chance folks refering to "system avatars" as "classic avatars" will missunderstand that... I prefer to call them "unrigged mesh"

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3 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Ah no,  you have to drop the Animation into the furniture

Ah so for furniture makers this isn't an option :(  I could do it for my own furniture personalised to my own head. 

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6 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

great way to refer to them 9_9 because there is absolutely no chance folks refering to "system avatars" as "classic avatars" will missunderstand that... I prefer to call them "unrigged mesh"

Problem is that both the classic or frames mesh heads and bento mesh heads are rigged mesh. It's just that the classic heads were not rigged to the bento bones.

Edited by Blush Bravin

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Blush has a different way of describing heads. But, once you understand the basics of what is happening, it is pretty easy to understand. It all has to do with how things are connected.

Classic Heads - These is the basic system head built into the viewer. Built-in means no download of mesh and few polygons. All that is needed is in the viewer. So, they are way low ACI. They can be animated and shaped. Classic heads use the small number of bones (rig components) first available in SL for animation and a number of morphs for adjusting facial shape.

Rigged Mesh Heads - There was a short time after mesh was added that mesh heads did not respond to Appearance Sliders as the classic and now Bento heads do. They could use the small number of bones in the head for animation but none of the mesh heads did or can use morphs. So, all these mesh heads of that time looked the same on all avatars as they did on the store shelf. Clone City and many were turned off by the look-a-like nature of mesh heads and did not buy them, including me.

Bento-Fitted Mesh Heads - When fitted mesh was added the bone system was adapted to better work with Appearance Sliders and allow mesh to be shaped by them. Essentially 'fitted mesh' replaced most of the need for morphs. Later, Bento added way more bones to the avatar, many being in the head. This change allowed what we now call Bento-Mesh Heads to exceeded the ability of the classic head which used a combination of animation and morphing for expression and shape. These new Bento heads are easily changed via the shape sliders in Appearance and ofer way more possibilities for expressions. We do NOT have to all look like a set of clones.

I just bought cotton candy for my avatar (no diets in SL). The animation where the tongue comes out and licks off some cotton stuck on the face is just awesome, IMO. This is not possible with the classic head nor non-Bento heads. You can run the animation on an avatar with a classic head. But, it wouldn't look the same.

As Blush pointed out Classic and early rigged heads are not connected to the new Bento facial bones. So, animating those new Bento bones does nothing for the classic head. So, it can't eat cotton candy like my Bento head does.

Older stuff, chairs, beds, etc. did not have Bento bones to animate. They could only target the classic bones and accessible morphs. So, these items can't do much for Bento mesh heads. It will require new stuff with new animations. So, far there isn't a lot of Bento enabled furniture out there. It is available. But, it will take some time for the old stuff to go away.

The crossover of some effects comes from the nature of the bones. There were and are neck, head, skull, eye, and jaw bones in all versions of the avatar. So, an old animation manipulating the jaw or any of the in-common bones will affect the classic and Bento heads as both bone sets have the same small in-common set of bones.

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Honestly, I think I need to just remove classic as a word defining any of the body parts, whether system or mesh. 

The Merriam-Webster definition for classic:

a: serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value

b: TRADITIONAL, ENDURING 

c: characterized by simple tailored lines in fashion year after year

So, I don't think the word classic really is useful to describe any of the body parts. So from this point forward (if I can remember), I'm going to use system, rigged mesh, and bento rigged mesh. :D

 

Sorry for the slight derail.

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18 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Honestly, I think I need to just remove classic as a word defining any of the body parts, whether system or mesh. 

The Merriam-Webster definition for classic:

a: serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value

b: TRADITIONAL, ENDURING 

c: characterized by simple tailored lines in fashion year after year

So, I don't think the word classic really is useful to describe any of the body parts. So from this point forward (if I can remember), I'm going to use system, rigged mesh, and bento rigged mesh. :D

 

Sorry for the slight derail.

SL has its jargon. Definition 'b' is sort of what is meant in SL jargon. The Lindens promote the use of the word 'Classic' in the marketplace and for users' promotional materials.

Residents and writers departing from the in-group use of a word's meaning add confusion. Readers expecting words to have their common native language meaning here adds confusion in there minds. So, the chances someone is going to be confused by what you say/write are REALLY good, no matter which way you go. 

Your initial description is reasonable. People often need to hear things described in different ways to understand, get it. I tend to repeat what others have written in a different way hoping with varied descriptions and our language issues here it gets the meaning across.

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Well cr*p. I've never really paid attention to this:

32008262_wellcrap.png.92ca39a2b438045d8253221c407c3e9c.png

As many times as I"ve listed my products, I never paid attention. I think it really is my bias against the system body. I really hated that body for so many years that now I just refused to call or recognize it as classic ... because I tend to look at the definition of the word as 

37 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

a: serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value

So thanks for the correction. I'm going to have to adjust my verbiage now. *grumbles to self.

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If you use the furniture and it animates your face, the animation creator has to make the furniture so it does that.

It is not something the casual SL user will do on their own, unless he or she want to learn how to create things.

The face does nothing unless the furniture is made with expressions, and if it is made for the system avatar - does not work for any mesh heads. If it is made for the new Bento heads - does not work for pre Bento mesh heads or system heads.

If you want my advice, I will suggest a Bento head. You can buy your own furniture. The furniture description should read something like this: " Full Bento (for bento mesh avatars - hands and faces animated) " You know that you get your animations, and if your partner has a Bento head and hands, their face will be animated too. (demo the furniture before you buy!)

If you want to use furniture in other places, the only way to find out is to test them and see. Trial and error.

And if you have found the furniture that does absolutely everything you want - but it's not animating your face - then you can play expressions yourself with a Bento expression HUDs that's either included with the purchase, or sold separately.

This is an older video of one of the first male Bento heads. From 11 minutes, the blogger goes through the default face animations that comes with that head. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=682&v=rLFxvLqv4Fc

There are other brands as well, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ns0iC_gNj0 

and also in this video, the blogger start to show the animations at 11 minutes.

 

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