Town Hall Meeting with Grumpity, Oz, and Patch Linden - November 15

[Aethelwine]

 

1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

Sorry littleme, this is I believe a thread for making suggestions to the labs, if a suggestion is made and you disagree the lab should hear the contrary point too

My suggestion was and is to change the description of the option to reflect what is does. You aren't arguing with me about the question I raised, but an aside. I note your disagreement, but it doesn't change my opinion, nor my experience of instant ejections for putting a foot over a parcel border. I have every right to suggest how people do things. They don't have to listen of course, you don't have to agree.

[KanryDrago]

2 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Anyone on the forums more then a few times would know that from past town-halls, they will pick 2 or 3 soft and easy topics to discuss. Things like "Tell us about your progress on Eep" and "Why can't I have a pony"

We've seen enough of these now to know that any talk of difficult topics is skipped, long lists of demands are skipped, and most suggestions will also be skipped over, maybe at best with Oz saying "Raise a jira".

A few might get replies in the thread after the broadcast, but in a few weeks the thread will be deleted.

Well news to me as I normally never bother reading stickied threads and this is the first time I stuck my head into a town hall one

[Macrocosm Draegonne]

17 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Anyone on the forums more then a few times would know that from past town-halls, they will pick 2 or 3 soft and easy topics to discuss. Things like "Tell us about your progress on Eep" and "Why can't I have a pony"

We've seen enough of these now to know that any talk of difficult topics is skipped, long lists of demands are skipped, and most suggestions will also be skipped over, maybe at best with Oz saying "Raise a jira".

A few might get replies in the thread after the broadcast, but in a few weeks the thread will be deleted.

The point really though is that they're seeing what the community has to say, and even commenting here with us!  Its all very valuable info usually, why would they even have to address every single comment? I wouldn't be bothered to not be addressed, knowing what I said was already written here for anyone to see.  We should also be aware there are topics that are off limits for any given reason, at any given time. But you saying something here could prove useful in decision making, or internal discussions & considerations. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne

[Pamus Bing]

Sorry I thought this was where you tried to get through to LL. Not just a topic only dedicated to Sim Security..There is a serious problem with Regin crossing that LL are not addressing. I will try to find another wat to try to get a responce from LL.

Once again sorry, pulling the plug on this forum

[Macrocosm Draegonne]

1 minute ago, Pamus Bing said:

Sorry I thought this was where you tried to get through to LL. Not just a topic only dedicated to Sim Security..There is a serious problem with Regin crossing that LL are not addressing. I will try to find another wat to try to get a responce from LL.

Once again sorry, pulling the plug on this forum

You seem to know they're not working on it? Why not just discuss your concern here instead of run?  Maybe its not such an easy thing to fix quickly, but that said, im sure a bit of PR and revealing of efforts on the topic wouldn't hurt the matter, especially if its long in the tooth!

[Aethelwine]

1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I cannot help but think my idea about Occlusion Prims being useful in this design challenge!  ?  Not only will it be a massive performance booster, especially on mainland, but it will create instant non-obtrusive black-box invisibility. 

 

 

Would they hide water so boats don't look like they are in serious need of being bailed out, like the way that invisiprims work without advanced lighting on in the Trudeau Patchagogue?

Edited October 24, 2018 by Aethelwine
corrected alpha to invisiprims - old age

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Pamus Bing said:

Sorry I thought this was where you tried to get through to LL. Not just a topic only dedicated to Sim Security..There is a serious problem with Regin crossing that LL are not addressing. I will try to find another wat to try to get a responce from LL.

Once again sorry, pulling the plug on this forum

Animats has posted maybe a hundred times about it. And he/they created a Jira for it. So maybe LL will accept the Jira and work on it. You never know.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I cannot help but think my idea about Occlusion Prims being useful in this design challenge!  ?  Not only will it be a massive performance booster, especially on mainland, but it will create instant non-obtrusive black-box invisibility. 

That can be useful...

• hiding a build until complete
• placing spaces of a build into their own "space" for immersive effect, privacy, and performance
• eliminating the need for why 85% of skyboxes exist, leaving only those that actually want to be skybuilds.
• Highrise condos,apartments, neighborhoods, malls that dont suck on performance, like in RL each can close their door and have some separation from the next, you can walk the lobby/street and nothing loads but that, no furniture, avatars, textures, mesh, from any of the internal spaces, unless you enter them fully, not just cam in.
• occlusion is mostly about performance but adds interesting tricks we can do in builds that many games do, its a good thing.  It can be simple and just hide things & not download them, unless your in the space, or it could be a nested micro-worldspace, with its own windlight to get fancy.
• Or... even fancier?  Use the trick I heard you do with the surface of Linden Water projecting the view upon it right? like a mirror you can pass thru?  That would be perfect to make Windows, Portals, and backdrops allowing the outside/inside to be visible (when desired).  Perhaps that wont work on account the viewer needs those objects to be there in order to generate that render you use on the water? If so, then scratch that unless a way can be devised to do it without loading them.

You have some..”interesting” ideas.

[Macrocosm Draegonne]

1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

Would they hide water so boats don't look like they are in serious need of being bailed out, like the way that alpha textures work without advanced lighting on in the Trudeau Patchagogue?

It depends entirely how implemented of course, but... I would imagine a fitting way to do it would be have a prim which can be stretched out, on land you own/rent.  All the protected waterways, parks, roadways would obviously be off limits since you cant build there. Whatever you move inside the occlusion prim is totally gone to anyone outside it, but that space is still there, maybe inside a building, or just sections of the inside of a building which has some public "out there" spaces.

There would have to be many rules and restrictions to corral the use of these, but it would be seriously good to have, and be an epic performance/privacy booster for more densely purposed areas. If someone CAM'd in, it would just be blank blackness, same thing from inside looking out could be good too, but that might be best as an optional setting depending on use case.

EDIT, I just realized what you meant, thats a really cool idea too! Occlusion to hide seeing LL water inside of a boat or craft?   That would be more related to the water shader stuff Im guessing, that takes water collision right? Honestly I cant remember being in a boat and seeing water inside, builders build around that and keep the cabin higher.

That does inspire me though, I was not previously thinking about vehicles having occluded interior spaces too.  Especially something large like a cruise ship or jetliner with many cabins & spaces inside, outside could be very lightweight on the render engine by hiding most of the of mesh/textures/avatars inside.

Edit again lmao:  The viewer already does forms of occlusion, occlusion prims would just give builders a tool to direct the use of that to bend more towards better performance/privacy/design-goal.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

Well, that does it.  I want a pony and a delicious buffet.

(from DeviantArt.com)

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Sorry littleme, this is I believe a thread for making suggestions to the labs, if a suggestion is made and you disagree the lab should hear the contrary point too

You both stated your opinions but continued the back and forth past the point where it was pertinent to the topic of this thread.

The last time LL put one of these threads here, two people started arguing and LL came in and deleted all of the posts that were part of the argument and reminded us all that the thread was for suggestions, not arguments.  The result being that neither point of view remained in the thread for anyone to read now or later.

[animats]

17 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

You both stated your opinions but continued the back and forth past the point where it was pertinent to the topic of this thread.

Yes. Please stay on topic. It's all uphill getting LL to fix anything, and distracting them doesn't help.

[Callum Meriman]

One for Oz.

A lot of us can/do read commit logs.

Outside of fixes for security why does the Lab mask so most of it's work behind "Internal Fixes" in the weekly maintenance changelogs you allow us to see?

Edited October 25, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[ellestones]

15 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

 the pointless and notorious banlines.

i can agree that banlines may be notorious for some. I can't agree that they are pointless for all

on my home region we encourage the use of banlines and parcel visibility flag to be used in the manner and purpose for which they are designed

we don't allow scripted devices that kill visitors to our community. On the basis that when do want privacy then better to prevent intrusion in the first instance than to allow intrusion and then execute the wanderer

and for the few who don't like banline ribbons messing up their view then menu: World \ Show \ Banlines

ps: we do also have the luxury of 4 and 8 meter parcel dividers on our sim. So that figures into our thinking also

[Whirly Fizzle]

10 hours ago, ChinRey said:

(from DeviantArt.com)

How did you manage to sneak in to the Linden scrum meeting!

[ChinRey]

3 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

How did you manage to sneak in to the Linden scrum meeting!

I'm not sure if I can tell you. Me and LL are having some really interesting philosophical discussions about some really interesting philosophical questions such as "What is the monetary value of an NDA?" I'd love to finish that first.

How did you recognise the picture btw?

But as animats said, we better stay focused. This isn't really a topic for a public Town Hall Meeting, at least not yet.

Here is one that is:

There was some talk a while ago about a channel connecting Sansara and Satori. What are LL's thoughts about that idea and is there any chance it will ever happen?

[Macrocosm Draegonne]

7 hours ago, ellestones said:

i can agree that banlines may be notorious for some. I can't agree that they are pointless for all

on my home region we encourage the use of banlines and parcel visibility flag to be used in the manner and purpose for which they are designed

we don't allow scripted devices that kill visitors to our community. On the basis that when do want privacy then better to prevent intrusion in the first instance than to allow intrusion and then execute the wanderer

and for the few who don't like banline ribbons messing up their view then menu: World \ Show \ Banlines

ps: we do also have the luxury of 4 and 8 meter parcel dividers on our sim. So that figures into our thinking also

Its been pretty rare for me to run into a ban line maybe a handful of times since 2008, and I do keep them hidden, because they're hideous.   Usually its clear on where you can walk and not, with roads, sidewalks, etc, I dont just go up in people's yards, unless its obviously welcoming.  People in vehicles maybe have less time to decide where to turn, but that said there are a huge amount of places you can drive and be fine.

I'm all for adding more ability for folks to obtain some privacy, and doing so in as unobtrusive ways to others as can be devised.   In RL you cant simply stand on the other side of a neighborhood and watch people in the middle of their house by caming in, unless your a creepy government stooge I guess? ?  So the only solution (for those that want it) is to disable visibility of internal avatars to anyone outside the parcel, and enable ban lines so people cant step in & bypass that, there's no other way.  And, no way I would ever support reducing that, I would only cheer on attempts to enhance/improve its capabilities.

I heard rumbles about this in a few meetings, the dev's said perhaps there are ways they can tweak the ban lines, by draw-distance, color, or mini-map etc.  So they're  at least considering some tweaks.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne

[Macrocosm Draegonne]

15 hours ago, animats said:

Yes. Please stay on topic. It's all uphill getting LL to fix anything, and distracting them doesn't help.

Dont stress it man, you've already done the proper thing to get the response you need when you filed a Jira. ? This post is all about distraction! lol  I bet its useful to throw some random in the mix and see what folks have to say, they're expecting it, laid out a welcome mat and all.

Edit:  AND... ponies, its about ponies too.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne

[Panster Moonshadow]

My question concerns Region Owners and Estate Managers.   If a Region Owner hires an Estate Manager, why can the Manager only see the *scripted* prims owned by others on the estate, and not actual , non-scripted objects?  In the same vein, the actual Region Owner can go to individual parcels and can not see non-scripted objects on the estate/region panel.  Everyone has access to their own land (objects owned by others), but this capability is not afforded Region Owners/Managers.

I think this is a vital capability for the smooth running of a region.     Let's say the Squatter Family decides to take advantage of the good graces of an open build region and lay out their brand new prim building at 4000 meters.   As a manager, I can't see it unless I decide to fly, raise my draw distance to an unacceptable level, and then return those prims  one by one until they are all gone  - and they are only discover-able by sight. 

This is not a privacy issue - I don't care, nor does any responsible sim owner/estate manager  - WHAT your object is.   I DO care that it adds to the prim allowance, that you are infringing on the rights of parcel/region owners, and basically not being a good citizen.   The actual intent may not be griefing - that's another issue altogether and can be handled by AR.   

Please bring back the rights of the people who pay for their regions, and the people they hire, to effectively do their jobs without wasting hours patrolling what can not be seen on the proper panel nor can it be batch returned.

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Panster Moonshadow

[Callum Meriman]

4 hours ago, Panster Moonshadow said:

My question concerns Region Owners and Estate Managers.   If a Region Owner hires an Estate Manager, why can the Manager only see the *scripted* prims owned by others on the estate, and not actual , non-scripted objects?  In the same vein, the actual Region Owner can go to individual parcels and can not see non-scripted objects on the estate/region panel.  Everyone has access to their own land (objects owned by others), but this capability is not afforded Region Owners/Managers.

To make that clearer this is what a  Region Owner sees in terms of what objects are on a parcel they are not grouped for...

Yes, it is a needed right. As we can already walk through ban lines, as we can return prims by avatar name from the Region control panel, and as we can see all scripted objects, there doesn't seem to be a logical reason (not even privacy) to hide these non-scripted objects from estate owners at the minimum, possibly estate managers too.

If anything allowing the region owner to see these details on all parcels in their estate can help griefer cleanup. It will allow us to pinpoint the owners of unscripted megaprims that block sitting, and so on.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[ellestones]

7 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Its been pretty rare for me to run into a ban line maybe a handful of times since 2008, and I do keep them hidden, because they're hideous.   Usually its clear on where you can walk and not, with roads, sidewalks, etc, I dont just go up in people's yards, unless its obviously welcoming.  People in vehicles maybe have less time to decide where to turn, but that said there are a huge amount of places you can drive and be fine.

I'm all for adding more ability for folks to obtain some privacy, and doing so in as unobtrusive ways to others as can be devised.   In RL you cant simply stand on the other side of a neighborhood and watch people in the middle of their house by caming in, unless your a creepy government stooge I guess? ?  So the only solution (for those that want it) is to disable visibility of internal avatars to anyone outside the parcel, and enable ban lines so people cant step in & bypass that, there's no other way.  And, no way I would ever support reducing that, I would only cheer on attempts to enhance/improve its capabilities.

I heard rumbles about this in a few meetings, the dev's said perhaps there are ways they can tweak the ban lines, by draw-distance, color, or mini-map etc.  So they're  at least considering some tweaks.

pretty much agree with everything you say here. Banlines have the most adverse effect on vehicle enthusiasts. I like the minimap navigation capabilities pioneered by the Catznip devs and would like to see these capabilities included in the LL standard viewer

if this was to be done then the main additional thing I would ask for is an option for the user to extend the distance range at which banlines can be detected. Which would then allow the navigation minimap, and main view when Show-enabled, to warn of banlines earlier than is currently possible

the other perennial ask is for the related issue - vehicles and/or driverless scripted objects  that hit a banline to be bounced off similar to how avatars are 

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, ellestones said:

Banlines have the most adverse effect on vehicle enthusiasts.

But if you use Linden Roads..no banlines will block them. Are you just driving Willy-Nilly through people’s property?

[Macrocosm Draegonne]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

But if you use Linden Roads..no banlines will block them. Are you just driving Willy-Nilly through people’s property?

True, boaters maybe have a harder time though, given how random the waterways can be on other property lines.

Generally when im driving I try not to cross a sim boundary, or just go to one of those awesome tracks that are massive and vertical, but still all in one sim, so bascially im never driving where its not intended lol.  Except when I go driving under the sea on the ocean floor lmao.  I haz no boatz yet.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Macrocosm Draegonne

[ellestones]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

But if you use Linden Roads..no banlines will block them. Are you just driving Willy-Nilly through people’s property?

not so much willy-nilly travel as thinking on the same lines as Macrocosm. More and earlier navigational information is always good

[ellestones]

5 minutes ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

  Except when I go driving under the sea on the ocean floor lmao.

yes. off-roading on the ocean floor is one of the best places in terms of render lag to go really fast. And when we go fast then the parcel boundaries can come up really quickly. Bounce me off banlines LL please