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Town Hall Meeting with Grumpity, Oz, and Patch Linden - November 15

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I know it is not a technical thing, but I suggest having “sales” (whether buydown tier or whatever) for private estate regions on a regular basis. This will really encourage those who weren’t either ready or in SL previously, to invest in private estates.  Not suggesting something “new” necessarily, but suggesting that LL do those special offers again / more often.

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I've noticed that the support for 3D mice has been removed from the Second Life Viewer. The removal was confirmed by the absence of the names Second Life and Linden Lab from this list. Could you please restore that support to the SL Viewer?

Jodi has already suggested that I use an older driver. I made this blog post about the conclusions from my attempt, but to make a long story short, without the support for 3D mice, users of 3D mice other than the SpaceMouse will continue to see their Second Life experience diminished.

Edited by Vulcan Viper

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There was reportedly a Linden job posting for developers of SL mobile (iOS and Android) viewers. Is that in the works? Any timeline at all?

Also, is there any prospect of making that mobile client available for entry-level phone-based VR such as Google Daydream or Cardboard? I get it that Sansar is where LL has placed its chips on the high-end HMD flavor of VR (Oculus Rift and the like), but that whole market has dim and diminishing prospects now. Meanwhile, flagship and even mid-range phone graphics have gotten much more capable since LL dismissed them as irrelevant. (If I were SL product manager, I'd sure consider stealing the march on Sansar, with more approachable hardware requirements.)

Related: Is there anything you can say about why Lumiya isn't currently listed in the TPVD?

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When is the lag going to get better? I am part owner in a club/amusement park and the lag is terrible sometimes.

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On 10/19/2018 at 6:18 PM, Bluezy Bleac said:

When will you start to work on DUI (Detachable User Interface)?  It is something I am certain many users would appreciate.  

I think that means having a cloud-based browser?  If so, I would also be interested in hearing about that. My computer is not a gaming computer but it is new and has a decent processor and okay graphics card....however it still can't handle SL except on the lowest graphics setting.  I have to subscribe to Bright Canopy to have the full graphics experience. The graphics in SL are so beautiful when you can fully view them...its a shame we can't enjoy them without an expensive computer, graphics card, or a subscription to an outside vendor.

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I am curious about a few things, none are demands, but all are interesting to me. 

  • Additional shaders, not only for visual appeal, but also for how much potential texture reduction & increased visual diversity that could offer.
  • Linden Tree's? I read a few bits about them here and there, and it seems they did all sorts of cool things, but were retired, can we get some of those plant shaders and features added back for creators to apply to flora?
  • Linden Water - I am most curious about updating the water shader with some minor enhancements, mainly fading out the specular/normal effect as you near close and right up to the waters edge meeting land(but not other things), this would give the appearance of a more smooth land/water edge transition at all angles.  Generally though, anything to enhance and improve the water would be welcome. Maybe even allow us to set a prim as LL water, so pools/lakes dont have to do so much work for a lessor visual effect.
  • Texture Atlases with internal tileable quadrants? Would be nice if we could use them, Blender & most 3d apps can build them for an object or scene.
  • Occlusion Tools - Prims that completely hide all textures/mesh placed inside its cube space from rendering/downloading to anyone outside of it.  For occluding things like a lot of games do, another variety (less SL specific) is occlusion planes, im sure you already know what those are.
  • A way to hide all avatar mesh that has not yet loaded its attachment point, even if they're just a jelly doughnut or a cloud for a few min thats fine. ?
  • Please tell us more about the Cloud enhancements, and what interesting things you're cooking up with the considerably expanded tool-set you've got more access to now, im so curious!
Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne
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3 hours ago, CherishSweetThings said:

I think that means having a cloud-based browser?  If so, I would also be interested in hearing about that. My computer is not a gaming computer but it is new and has a decent processor and okay graphics card....however it still can't handle SL except on the lowest graphics setting.  I have to subscribe to Bright Canopy to have the full graphics experience. The graphics in SL are so beautiful when you can fully view them...its a shame we can't enjoy them without an expensive computer, graphics card, or a subscription to an outside vendor.

No, actually, with dui I mean to have the ability to drag certain parts of the user interface outside of the second life window.  Like drag the chat outside of the window ...

 

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18 minutes ago, Bluezy Bleac said:

No, actually, with dui I mean to have the ability to drag certain parts of the user interface outside of the second life window.  Like drag the chat outside of the window ...

I wish for this also!

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3 hours ago, Bluezy Bleac said:

No, actually, with dui I mean to have the ability to drag certain parts of the user interface outside of the second life window.  Like drag the chat outside of the window ...

 

Sometimes I want to drag the chat out of the window and into passing traffic.

But yes, I'd like that too as it clears the view :) 

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One more :)  Again, not a demand, just an interest.

Web-Prims - I tinkered already & they're cool!  Perhaps they could be expanded?  Increase performance & allow some additional use-case types

Say we only want a js midi synthesizer, and/or text to voice reader, audio tracks, etcetera, basically script and sound only, no need for an interactive screen-space or browser functionality.  Could we have a lighter version of webprim that is script and/or Sound focused only?  Id love to offload processing to my other servers, or simply use such efficient code it can process right in the Data: with a few externally loaded scripts.  Or load in sounds externally so not to drag the SL servers as much? Maybe that data: block allowance could be increased too? 

Perhaps we could also have web-prims with no networking, this type could be for making HUDS, styling a new additional type of Notecard with a WYSIWYG, using actual fonts & html design/effects in things in game.  html is really capable of a lot, even without its networking functionalities, and a great many people know basic usage for simple stuff. 

We would need a lot of restrictions on this area of course, but these "lighter" web-prims would be useful, and maybe even performance enhancing, since chromium can spawn new system threads, whilst having a light footprint, if used correctly.   I would imagine the most expensive to the system are the interactive browser windows, but as you can see we could have several different types which dont use that functionality at all, or very minimally.

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

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On 10/22/2018 at 5:41 PM, animats said:

What do we have to do to get LL to make a serious effort to fix region crossings?

I was thinking about this recently, its a monumental task that will require refactoring of the servers, they must have some mind numbing data on that idea already but can you imagine the challenge? wowza!  ?

I said on one of your threads what I figured might be a way to do it.  Basically turning any grouping of SIM's into a single logical MMO style worldspace, abstracting only all thats related to avatar travel into it, whilst relieving the SIM's of that duty.   Mainland continents can be huge though, so they might need zones within the bigger zone? I dunno.  Then for continuous travel between continents... maybe an interface that pops up when you hit the SIM edge or designated TP spot giving you a choice where to pop-over too with a loading tp screen transition.  Or better yet, put them all on an actual globe, with fully navigable sea, and above 4k air travel space between them all, lmao!

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

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Another suggestion would be to revisit the confusing Allow Group access option in your parcel settings. To many people this seems fairly innocuous, they reach the option just after allowing public access to their land and add it in for good measure to make sure Group members have access as well.

No where in the innocuous description does it suggest what it really does which is to erect an internally invisible bouncy castle structure over your land that provides limited entertainment value for those that enjoy bouncing in the air, whilst also creating epilepsy inducing flashing lights around the edge of their parcel for their neighbours and wary passersby that will regularly snare and break vehicles that come too close. In short the innocuous option introduces the pointless and notorious banlines.

I can see no useful purpose or function to them, and would much rather the option was simply not there, but if we have to have the option. Can it not at least be labelled more accurately to reflect what it does?

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1 hour ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

I was thinking about this recently, its a monumental task that will require refactoring of the servers, they must have some mind numbing data on that idea already but can you imagine the challenge? wowza!  ?

I'm not asking for anything that big. There's a bug.  When one sim is handing off an object to another sim, the transfer process sometimes fails. I suggested in the JIRA adding a debug check in the sim servers. If part of an object tree (vehicle/avatars/vehicle parts/attachments) is received by a sim, but all the parts don't arrive within 30 seconds, log that error and the relevant data about the transfer. I have a version of Firestorm with extra logging which lets me see the object updates as the objects report in at the new sim. Sim crossing failures occur when some of the parts arrive and some don't.

The OpenSim guys have this working. It's embarrassing that LL can't fix their version. Come on, people.

(For what MD really wants, you'd need a newer toolchain. Check out SpatialOS. Read the section on "cross worker boundaries". See how they do seamless region crossings. They even dynamically reallocate regions, so if too many avatars are in one area, more resources are provided. A few new MMOs are already using this, and more are coming.)

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1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

Another suggestion would be to revisit the confusing Allow Group access option in your parcel settings. To many people this seems fairly innocuous, they reach the option just after allowing public access to their land and add it in for good measure to make sure Group members have access as well.

No where in the innocuous description does it suggest what it really does which is to erect an internally invisible bouncy castle structure over your land that provides limited entertainment value for those that enjoy bouncing in the air, whilst also creating epilepsy inducing flashing lights around the edge of their parcel for their neighbours and wary passersby that will regularly snare and break vehicles that come too close. In short the innocuous option introduces the pointless and notorious banlines.

I can see no useful purpose or function to them, and would much rather the option was simply not there, but if we have to have the option. Can it not at least be labelled more accurately to reflect what it does?

While I don't use them myself I have friends that do and the reason is to stop people wandering in at intimate moments, maybe a better suggestion is kill the flashy lights and stop the vehicle breaking. If people dont want folk in their home that should be up to them

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1 hour ago, animats said:

I'm not asking for anything that big. There's a bug.  When one sim is handing off an object to another sim, the transfer process sometimes fails. I suggested in the JIRA adding a debug check in the sim servers. If part of an object tree (vehicle/avatars/vehicle parts/attachments) is received by a sim, but all the parts don't arrive within 30 seconds, log that error and the relevant data about the transfer. I have a version of Firestorm with extra logging which lets me see the object updates as the objects report in at the new sim. Sim crossing failures occur when some of the parts arrive and some don't.

The OpenSim guys have this working. It's embarrassing that LL can't fix their version. Come on, people.

(For what MD really wants, you'd need a newer toolchain. Check out SpatialOS. Read the section on "cross worker boundaries". See how they do seamless region crossings. They even dynamically reallocate regions, so if too many avatars are in one area, more resources are provided. A few new MMOs are already using this, and more are coming.)

I heard openSIM had the worst sim crossings of all, if anyone is even there to cross them... ?  Thats interesting someone has devised a new technique though!

Im sure there's a delicious buffet of options they have to choose from at LL, but it all must run through and take account of legacy setup and other protocols/plans, its a hefty area to even slightly modify, which I would imagine they have all sorts of little tests and potentialities worked out by now.  Im sure they must stay tight lip about such things, else people will get worked up one way or the other.

In the last interview Oz mentioned the LL policy of openness and welcomed people to do exactly what you're doing, to flesh out ideas that everyone can benefit from, but damn, SIM crossings seems like it would take a whole team of people.  In fact LL may have something more considerable cooking to handle the issue, but it must fall in the correct schedule of development to be most viable.

Edit: That spacial OS is really neat by the way, interesting product angle, and it supports any game engine I see too, its impressive to see what techniques they devised, good stuff to "benchmark" off of. ?

Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne

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1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

While I don't use them myself I have friends that do and the reason is to stop people wandering in at intimate moments, maybe a better suggestion is kill the flashy lights and stop the vehicle breaking. If people dont want folk in their home that should be up to them

A properly set orb does that much better and turning off the setting to allow viewing into the parcel.

Banlines attract attention, they don't distract from it. If I get snared on one and see someone on the parcel I will cam them and (if they aren't bonking) probably start talking to them about their parcel settings, where I wouldn't even have thought to look there before. They are just the wrong tool for that job.

Edited by Aethelwine
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3 hours ago, Macrocosm Draegonne said:

Im sure there's a delicious buffet of options they have to choose from at LL

Well, that does it.  I want a pony and a delicious buffet.

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1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

A properly set orb does that much better and turning off the setting to allow viewing into the parcel.

Banlines attract attention, they don't distract from it. If I get snared on one and see someone on the parcel I will cam them and (if they aren't bonking) probably start talking to them about their parcel settings, where I wouldn't even have thought to look there before. They are just the wrong tool for that job.

I cannot help but think my idea about Occlusion Prims being useful in this design challenge!  ?  Not only will it be a massive performance booster, especially on mainland, but it will create instant non-obtrusive black-box invisibility. 

That can be useful...

  • hiding a build until complete
  • placing spaces of a build into their own "space" for immersive effect, privacy, and performance
  • eliminating the need for why 85% of skyboxes exist, leaving only those that actually want to be skybuilds.
  • Highrise condos,apartments, neighborhoods, malls that dont suck on performance, like in RL each can close their door and have some separation from the next, you can walk the lobby/street and nothing loads but that, no furniture, avatars, textures, mesh, from any of the internal spaces, unless you enter them fully, not just cam in.
  • occlusion is mostly about performance but adds interesting tricks we can do in builds that many games do, its a good thing.  It can be simple and just hide things & not download them, unless your in the space, or it could be a nested micro-worldspace, with its own windlight to get fancy.
  • Or... even fancier?  Use the trick I heard you do with the surface of Linden Water projecting the view upon it right? like a mirror you can pass thru?  That would be perfect to make Windows, Portals, and backdrops allowing the outside/inside to be visible (when desired).  Perhaps that wont work on account the viewer needs those objects to be there in order to generate that render you use on the water? If so, then scratch that unless a way can be devised to do it without loading them.
Edited by Macrocosm Draegonne
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1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

A properly set orb does that much better and turning off the setting to allow viewing into the parcel.

Banlines attract attention, they don't distract from it. If I get snared on one and see someone on the parcel I will cam them and (if they aren't bonking) probably start talking to them about their parcel settings, where I wouldn't even have thought to look there before. They are just the wrong tool for that job.

orbs dont stop people coming in though and take time to react, and obviously they would have the settings to see in turned off. Why do you think your right to intrude trumps their right to lock you out if they choose. As to you imming....if it were me the moment you start telling me what I should do with my land would be the moment you got blocked

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Region Crossings

I am one of the Admins for a 15-region estate, we regular hold sailing battles. Sim crossing are still a big problem with ships often going off world, the problem is still the same as it was 11 years ago.  Ship creators have done their utmost to improve and make ships more efficient. BUT LL is still dragging it heals over this matter. The last I heard was one of the Lindens was taken off sorting region crossings to go and work on Sansar.  Pleas will you remember who is paying LL employee. As a reminder it is us Estate/Region owners. So please instead of rebuffing and fobbing us off with platitudes. Can you, for one tell the Estate and Region owners what exactly is been dome about Region crossings, it is not, I repeat not getting any better…Yes I know I can set to stop on a Region line to allow the oncoming Region to load, but often this fails.

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22 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

orbs dont stop people coming in though and take time to react, and obviously they would have the settings to see in turned off. Why do you think your right to intrude trumps their right to lock you out if they choose. As to you imming....if it were me the moment you start telling me what I should do with my land would be the moment you got blocked

Orbs do stop people coming in and take the time to react that you set on them.

Banlines aren't the best tool to stop intruders, they are a nuisance to travelers and to other land owners who find the resale value of their property halved when their new neighbour starts using them.

And going back to my original point. 9 times out of 10 the people I contact never even realised they had banlines up because they ticked a parcel setting about allowing something, not refusing it.

Edited by Aethelwine
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And this is not the thread for arguing over what the best method is to keep people out of your land.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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4 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Orbs do stop people coming in and take the time to react that you set on them.  I have no interest in intruding on them ??? and good job it isn't you then I guess, with your attitude you are likely to find yourself banned from alot of mainland anyway.

Banlines aren't the best tool to stop intruders, they are a nuisance to travelers and to other land owners who find the resale value of their property halved when their new neighbour starts using them.

And going back to my original point. 9 times out of 10 the people I contact never even realised they had banlines up because they ticked a parcel setting about allowing something, not refusing it.

what absolute tosh I have tped to friends houses with orbs set to zero who have forgotten to put me on the list and it takes time for an orb to tp you.

I agree ban lines are ugly, I also agree they shouldnt un vehicle someone. If you campaign to get those things changed then I would support that. Accept though there are some people that like the peace of mind ban lines give them and you have no right to dictate what they should and shouldn't do

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6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

And this is not the thread for arguing over what the best method is to keep people out of your land.

Sorry littleme, this is I believe a thread for making suggestions to the labs, if a suggestion is made and you disagree the lab should hear the contrary point too

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6 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Sorry littleme, this is I believe a thread for making suggestions to the labs, if a suggestion is made and you disagree the lab should hear the contrary point too

Anyone on the forums more then a few times would know that from past town-halls, they will pick 2 or 3 soft and easy topics to discuss. Things like "Tell us about your progress on Eep" and "Why can't I have a pony"

We've seen enough of these now to know that any talk of difficult topics is skipped, long lists of demands are skipped, and most suggestions will also be skipped over, maybe at best with Oz saying "Raise a jira".

A few might get replies in the thread after the broadcast, but in a few weeks the thread will be deleted.

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