Environmental Enhancement Project (aka EEP!) Feedback Thread

[Linnrenate Crosby]

Thank you Penny for the simple and easy tutorial to follow I made my changes according to that and my needs, do i need to change anything in my firestorm quick-prefs to active them?

Right now they are listed as water and sky: day cycle based and day cycle: default Even at 2000 m where i want to always have 12 AM.

Including a picture of my land settings

[Linnrenate Crosby]

Actually i did enable "Use shared environment" but then at 2000m up i get midnight instead of midday. And the day cycle are listed as none

EDIT: I figured it out

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Linnrenate Crosby

[Miller Thor]

As I said almost two years ago. EEP is a completely new concept which also requires completely new learning. Both from the first tutorials that gave us the minimum basics, as well as through questions and learning by doing, you learn it bit by bit and get on with it slowly. Especially when adjusting the colors and the horizon, for example, you can only find out and learn the most optimal in practice. My wife and I only learned from practice, because when we started using EEP on our regions, the overall concept was still in its infancy. With the time we are already quite experienced in it and are able to make corrections and settings easier, but even after 96 settings we created for an entire year we are still in the learning phase and are constantly discovering new things. You really have to deal with it very intensively over a few hours and try a lot to understand and learn the individual contexts. Don't despair and throw the towel in frustration when the first 100th time doesn't turn out the way you want. The 101st time will certainly get better. Only until we had finished the first production-ready settings for our regions, dozens of attempts passed, combined with very derisive curses.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Miller Thor

[kiramanell]

On 3/10/2021 at 8:25 AM, Penny Patton said:

I got extremely frustrated trying to do something similar. I dug around for tutorials and came up with nothing, but I eventually figured it out and tonight I've thrown together a quick and dirty tutorial to help others.

It's actually really simple once you know how. It would be extremely helpful of LL to give us some basic tutorials like this on new features once they release them, rather than leaving us to figure it out on our own.

 

Not sure if it will help others, but confusing for me was the whole 'Day Settings' thingy. I kept trying to Apply old, saved windlights (converted to EEP). They would show, but would never take (Firestorm).** Finally someone suggested I drag & drop an EEP object into the 'Sky Altitudes' area (like to the right-hand side of 'Ground'). Then it took! In fact, I did nothing with 'Day Settings', really. Just dropped in my converted windlights, and that eventually did it.

** My guess is that I got confused trying to press that 'Customize' button, which then tries to load a Day Setting, for which I only provided a sky windlight EEP (which it then doesn't accept). So, not bothering with 'Day Settings' at all, and just dragging & dropping in the EEP worked, and proved to be quite easy, once I got the hang of it.

[Candide LeMay]

Why does disabling the water rendering change the skies as well? Water is rendered even when you're up 3000m in the air and can't see it so it used to be a performance optimization to turn off water rendering in skyboxes. But now with EEP it messes up the lighting completely in most cases.

[sandi Mexicola]

5 hours ago, Candide LeMay said:

Why does disabling the water rendering change the skies as well? Water is rendered even when you're up 3000m in the air and can't see it so it used to be a performance optimization to turn off water rendering in skyboxes. But now with EEP it messes up the lighting completely in most cases.

Because that would just make things too easy! 

[Whirly Fizzle]

11 hours ago, Candide LeMay said:

Why does disabling the water rendering change the skies as well? Water is rendered even when you're up 3000m in the air and can't see it so it used to be a performance optimization to turn off water rendering in skyboxes. But now with EEP it messes up the lighting completely in most cases.

It's a known bug
BUG-229028 - [EEP] When ALM is enabled, disabling water rendering breaks the sky

[Rowan Amore]

16 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

It's a known bug
BUG-229028 - [EEP] When ALM is enabled, disabling water rendering breaks the sky

I'd like to know why shutting off transparent water turns off ALM also.  

[Cerridwen Keneinan]

There really needs to be some advanced video tutorials on this, I personally do not have the time to research all the capabilities. Videos so far go over bare minimum and drop it at that. Then you have about 100 pages of text that still do not show you how to take all of these cool new features and apply them. IMO this is a fail.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

@Alexa Linden @Rider Linden @Oz Linden @Whirly Fizzle

I finally got around to updating and trying out the latest EEP viewers today. I thought it might be fun and pleasing. And OMFG....

WHY THE HELL HAS THE DAYLIGHT TIME  SLIDER BEEN REMOVED???!

Why have you (Linden Labs & Firestorm) replaced it with such a horribly overly-complex clunky mess of windows, tabs and buttons that fail to do the job of one simple slider? This is not an update, this is a downgrade.

I do not want to manually preset and reload all 1,440 minutes of a day, when it was previously done all so easily and quickly with a single click on a single slider. And no, having Sunrise, Midday, Sunset and Midnight as "convenient" presets are not sufficient, flexible or as instantly quick to use as the daylight time slider was.

I HATE the slider's removal, I'm genuinely FURIOUS about it and have since reverted back to my non EEP viewers. The daylight time slider removal is probably one of the worst and most thoughtless "updates" that LL has done to the viewer in all my experience of using SL (since June 2008). 

PLEASE (please!) restore the daylight time slider back into newer viewer updates before all the non EEP viewers finally become obsolete and blocked, as I completely REFUSE to use the current EEP viewers without this slider as it's a stupidly regressive UI flaw 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[panterapolnocy]

18 hours ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

WHY THE HELL HAS THE DAYLIGHT TIME  SLIDER BEEN REMOVED???!

Because EEP has a different internal structure than the old Windlight system and slider would not work - for fixed skies there is no such thing as "time of the day" anymore. See:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-229982
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-228566
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-230190
https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-29896
https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-29984

18 hours ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

I do not want to manually preset and reload all 1,440 minutes of a day, when it was previously done all so easily and quickly with a single click on a single slider.

Try to use the personal lighting feature and change sun position after selecting desired sky preset.

Edited April 30, 2021 by panterapolnocy

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

Thankyou for your reply and suggestions, but I no longer have or want any EEP viewer installed and refuse to reinstall one again, for the reasons I have already explained, plus a few more which I didn't (reduced framerate, bland dark textures etc...).

If I did, it would be both hypocritical and an acceptance of an inferior downgrade which I genuinely believe reduces ease of use and functionality. I am not a luddite, I do mostly welcome change when a change is needed and I've often made suggestions inworld and in this forum for improvements or changes to be made in SL.

But I would only ever reconsider a reinstallation of an EEP viewer if all the legacy Windlight functions were built-in as an alternative to EEP, which I think is fair, for all residents (old and new), who do not want, cannot use, or do not like the newer system.

Edited April 30, 2021 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Eduardo Minghuang]

Thats why im still on my old Firestormviewer 6.3.9.58205

When they force me to upgrade ill test it again and see if they manage for a normal

Daylight, sunset and midnight colour reproduce as we have seen in windlight.

These are the only 3 settings i will use

I know firestorm tells that hey are forced to upgrade but not every third party viewer will do this immediately

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Eduardo Minghuang

[panterapolnocy]

1 hour ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

Thankyou for your reply and suggestions, but I no longer have or want any EEP viewer installed and refuse to reinstall one again

1 hour ago, Eduardo Minghuang said:

I know firestorm tells that hey are forced to upgrade but not every third party viewer will do this immediately

At the end every single viewer most probably will offer EEP-only experience. Just saying. You may not like it, but you will need to live with it - sooner or later. I'd suggest to go to the Lab's JIRA and post constructive and well described change requests / suggestions, but it's unlikely that EEP will be dropped. That said...

1 hour ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

But I would only ever reconsider a reinstallation of an EEP viewer if all the legacy Windlight functions were built-in as an alternative to EEP, which I think is fair, for all residents (old and new), who do not want, cannot use, or do not like the newer system.

Then you'd need to convince Linden Lab to remove EEP and implement Windlight instead. All TPVs should/must follow the Shared Experience rule - EEP is how the world looks now. Please see this topic.

Oh, and as a side note - pinging Oz in posts won't have any effect...
https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/468184-farewell-soon/

Edited April 30, 2021 by panterapolnocy

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, panterapolnocy said:

At the end every single viewer most probably will offer EEP-only experience.

Can confirm. The next release of Catznip will be the first and last version shipped in both EEP and non-EEP versions.

 

The non-EEP version isn't for people who don't like EEP. It's for people on exceptionally low end hardware to give them more time for upgrades.

If you don't like EEP - Use an EEP viewer - Document what's wrong, what doesn't work how you think it should, help us get the usability aspects correct. We will be blocking non-EEP viewers with the release after this one and you will be stuck with it, this is your opportunity to shape it into something you actually like.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Coffee Pancake

[Henri Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Can confirm.

Can infirm: the Cool VL Viewer will keep both renderers (WL and EE, and switchable on the fly with the same viewer binary, i.e. no need for two different viewer versions) ”forever”, or at least until LL changes for a Vulkan renderer.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Henri Beauchamp

[Henri Beauchamp]

3 hours ago, panterapolnocy said:

All TPVs should/must follow the Shared Experience rule

There is a basic misconception about what this rule actually means: it simply means that a TPV cannot implement a feature that would break the way things looks for *others*; in the past, there have been viewers implementing such features (e.g. non standard attachment points on your avatar, that then had the said attachments appearing in your avatar's center in other viewers) that other viewers (and especially LL's) could not render properly, which did break the ”shared experience” for all users of all viewers but that particular TPV.

Now, what you display in *your* own viewer (as long as it does not affect what others are seeing in theirs) is *your* business. Else simple things such as local environment settings would be forbidden !

So, if you prefer how WL looks over EE, you are perfectly founded in using a WL viewer: it won't break anyone else's experience !

Edited April 30, 2021 by Henri Beauchamp

[Henri Beauchamp]

9 hours ago, panterapolnocy said:

Because EEP has a different internal structure than the old Windlight system and slider would not work - for fixed skies there is no such thing as ”time of the day” anymore.

Wrong !

I implemented the day light time slider for the EE local environment editor in the Cool VL Viewer (as well a another slider for the time of day at login).

It works just fine, but did involve changes to the default settings (using WL translated defaults that do include a day cycle, instead of the ”fixed” midday/midnight/sunset/sunrise EE defaults). This could be backported into any other EE viewer as well...

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Henri Beauchamp

[Coffee Pancake]

38 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Can infirm

That word .. It does not mean what you think it means. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infirm

[Henri Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

That word .. It does not mean what you think it means. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infirm

Sorry for being French... Disaffirm, perhaps ?

[panterapolnocy]

4 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Sorry for being French... Disaffirm, perhaps ?

"Deny" would be enough, Henri.

2 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

There is a basic misconception about what this rule actually means (...) So, if you prefer how WL looks over EE, you are perfectly founded in using a WL viewer: it won't break anyone else's experience !

I think that personal experience is not exactly the same thing as shared experience , as the name itself suggests - as in, the 3D world experience that everyone is able to see. Even in the official SL viewer you can switch off ALM and you'll see the world in a different way than another SLV user who has ALM enabled, no one denies that. But if the functionality itself (here: the ability to render old Windlight skies) is not present in the SL Viewer, then it's not something that falls into the "shared" bucket any more, as SL Viewer is the "standard" TPVs should respect. Sure, some exceptions can be made, after battles and agreements - like RLV - but not sticking to that rule is putting a viewer in a gray zone.

And EEP - for some people better, for others worse - is the new standard as of today. I'm no fortune teller, but I guess it is logical to assume that in time content creators (region owners, product makers etc.) will stop bothering with Windlight viewers and tune everything for EEP. So, using a Windlight viewer would be like using Second Life without Bento or BOM, I guess? Faster, but inferior to EEP rendering.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

2 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said:

Wrong !

I implemented the day light time slider for the EE local environment editor in the Cool VL Viewer (as well a another slider for the time of day at login).

It works just fine, but did involve changes to the default settings (using WL translated defaults that do include a day cycle, instead of the ”fixed” midday/midnight/sunset/sunrise EE defaults). This could be backported into any other EE viewer as well...

 

Very interesting. I may need to use Cool VL Viewer in the future if LL and others don't integrate WL into their EEP viewers.

[Henri Beauchamp]

21 minutes ago, panterapolnocy said:

And EEP - for some people better, for others worse - is the new standard as of today. I'm no fortune teller, but I guess it is logical to assume that in time content creators (region owners, product makers etc.) will stop bothering with Windlight viewers and tune everything for EEP. So, using a Windlight viewer would be like using Second Life without Bento or BOM, I guess? Faster, but inferior to EEP rendering.

You won't have any issue with my viewer... It automatically translates EE settings to WL settings and vice-versa to render them. Sure, you do not have fancy Moon and Sun orbits, changeable Moon and Sun diameter and other such EE-only settings in WL rendering mode, but it displays EE settings fine nonetheless in WL rendering mode (and vice versa) !

If, like me, you spend most of your time in indoor scenes, you won't even notice a difference, but for your fps rate (usually significantly higher in WL mode, with the exception of scenes with lots of alpha textures which the EE renderer can batch, unlike WL).

I believe in freedom of choice. Why would I suffer lower performances when I do not care for EE fancy settings ?... On the other hand, it seems natural that I can see the effect of those fancy settings in EE mode whenever I want or need it. Thus my choice of a dual-renderer for my viewer. It can do both, so there's no loss for its users ! 😛

Edited April 30, 2021 by Henri Beauchamp

[Chic Aeon]

I wanted to post this here because I am guessing that it seems like my comments are particularly about change -- in that not liking it in any manner sort of way.  That isn't really it :D.

 

Today I took my first picture inside a new to me (2018) game. It took me 136 hours to GET here, but here I am (with plenty more to do).  But what impressed me was the overlay interface.  Super cool, easy to use and it even has a "vignette" slider.  Now this is on STEAM and photos there are not super clear as many of you know. So no 5000 pixel raw and clear shots. Still I felt like this deserved a bit of drumroll with the classiness and ease of use on this.    

 

So NOT just about change; the change has to be for the better :D.   

[Mollymews]

i have always liked the idea of EEP

have been running on the Linden LMR 5 project viewer for a while now.  I pretty much just use the viewer default Midday and Sunset menu settings. Compared to the initial EEP offering which was pretty murky looking, LMR 5 (out the box) has come a long way in terms of getting the lighting on par with the old default Windlight Midday and Sunset settings

so am pretty happy with how things EEP are going