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Environmental Enhancement Project (aka EEP!) Feedback Thread


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On 8/7/2020 at 2:29 PM, Coby Foden said:

Hmm... in which version the shininess has been changed?

In the latest official Linden Lab viewer the shininess is still much stronger than in non-EEP viewers.
In EEP viewers the skins look like heavily oiled skins. 😲

You don't like the new "oiled pig" look once somebody puts on a tiny bit of shine? Well... I wonder if there was a reason Firestorm didn't release this rushed out piece of breakage yet - beside giving other TPVs the mandatory chance to brag and blame... 🤭

Edited by Ansariel Hiller
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Good morning everyone!  I’d like to start our first thread for Environmental Enhancement Project aka EEP!  EEP is a major enhancement to the legacy Windlight environments in Second Life, introducing a

I said i wouldn't do this but i tried it again and when just logging in already noticed another issue. Your own windlight is not permanent, every time i login i'm forced to see the awful daycycle that

Ugh. I've had my first test run just now, a short one but i just couldn't care less anymore after seeing this cluster*****, all i wanted was get it over with as fast as possible and close down the Vie

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1 hour ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

You don't like the new "oiled pig" look once somebody puts on a tiny bit of shine? Well... I wonder if there was a reason Firestorm didn't release this rushed out piece of breakage yet - beside giving other TPVs the mandatory chance to brag and blame... 🤭

Where is the "oink oink" reaction when you need it? 

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16 hours ago, Stevie Davros said:

The current new stars are quite nice IMO, but they are procedurally generated and not a graphic, which is why they are sharp little dots. 

They look like a starry night seen from the middle of a big city, where you can hardly see any stars. LL needs to do something to improve them so we can have proper night skies that look like one seen far from city lights.

photo-1535418126925-0bfb3a0ee0d7?ixlib=r

We need something like sliders to control the amount and variation of stars seen in the sky.

Edited by Penny Patton
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I agree that would be marvellous, but it would require implementation of something like Stellarium app into SL. Here I added a Milky Way graphic into Firestorm EEP Beta at the maximum allowed size of 1024x1024 onto the Sun and sized it just to fit the screen dimensions for a snap. It is fuzzy and not practical, unless you use SL on a smartphone. To add in a heap more tiles to cover the entire sky as graphic files would require even at this fuzzy resolution maybe 50 or more tiles. I shrank it to a smaller size and it looks more reasonable, but then to cover the sky you would need hundreds of tiles... So the only way they could implement it would be using code to emulate it, rather than image graphics.   Even Stellarium app makes the Milky Way look somewhat fuzzy, because they use a graphic for the Milky Way and rendered stars...  Given all the other issues they are trying to resolve I would would give this zero chance of being considered. :(

Maybe this gives a hint:
http://www.ianww.com/blog/2014/02/17/making-a-skydome-in-three-dot-js/

Mily Way as Replacement Sun.png

Interface.jpg

Stellarium Astronomy App.jpg

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5 hours ago, Stevie Davros said:

Given all the other issues they are trying to resolve I would would give this zero chance of being considered.

You're overthinking it. I was only speaking of the number, and variety in brightness/size of stars in the sky, not necessarily the milky way clouds and nebulae. Although having those would be great, too. 

Just making that one change should be simple, as far as these things go.

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I dont normally do this but here's another reflections bug.

Filed it too:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-229201

 

13 hours ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

You don't like the new "oiled pig" look once somebody puts on a tiny bit of shine? Well... I wonder if there was a reason Firestorm didn't release this rushed out piece of breakage yet - beside giving other TPVs the mandatory chance to brag and blame... 🤭

Wrong, its so other TPV's can have a fixed version ready while you still need over half another year to come up with the first version of EEP that has none of the issues fixed and then push another release over half a year after that which contains the fixes that we already had. *caugh* High Resolution Snapshots *caugh*

Edited by NiranV Dean
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I have been using the Firestorm beta client for a while and truly *hate* the User Interface changes relating to EEP.  It is almost impossible to change the sun settings to get an optimal 'look' without spending tedious hours fiddling with the annoying sun gimbal.  I am sure it can be done, and I am sure it is all very modern and clever with comprehensive functionality - but when I am zipping round the grid, I want to be able to change my 'windlight' quickly and easily and alter the 'time of day' equally easily. The 'old' slider was absolutely perfect - the new 'sun' and 'moon' are incomprehensible, difficult to work and just plain annoying.

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Specilars in materials are now just UGLY....I love the new EEP in general where everything is looking much crisper and far more reactive to day and night cycles, but it has totally screwed up speculars. both Avatars and objects look horrible and like nasty cheap wet plastic.

I feel this needs to be prioritised as an issue as people spend a lot of money on avatars and builds and to see things ruined is not only sould destroying but actually puts you off from using Second Life.... nobody wants to use Ugly software

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8 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

Wrong, its so other TPV's can have a fixed version ready while you still need over half another year to come up with the first version of EEP that has none of the issues fixed and then push another release over half a year after that which contains the fixes that we already had. *caugh* High Resolution Snapshots *caugh*

What EEP release are you talking about? The is no actual Firestorm EEP release out yet due to the amount of bugs EEP still has - there is only a public beta for people to have a peek. But I forgive you overlooking that fact while raging...

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9 hours ago, Anne Cord said:

Can anybody tell me how to get the sun to light up when I want it. I want it to appear at 6am but it won't show up until later no matter what settings I use.

 

https://gyazo.com/780473b2f1cd38936cb090a3a8da1b86

shows my current settings but no matter what changes I make to the location of the sun, glow focus and glow size, it just stays dark.

 

The Sun is still below the horizon. Try clicking the E and N arrows until it just peeps above the horizon and the little yellow sun light up bright, like the moon is on the right side. If you are after a pre-dawn glow, you need to move the Glow Focus slider across to the left into negative territory and reduce the Glow Size to about 1.80.

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3 minutes ago, Stevie Davros said:

The Sun is still below the horizon. Try clicking the E and N arrows until it just peeps above the horizon and the little yellow sun light up bright, like the moon is on the right side. If you are after a pre-dawn glow, you need to move the Glow Focus slider across to the left into negative territory and reduce the Glow Size to about 1.80.

The fact that the arrows seem to be the only way to get the sun back to the front after a stray click sends it behind it really annoying.  If we cannot go back to the previous day cycle slider, it would be nice if there was a quick one press toggle to bring to front/send to back.

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1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

  

The fact that the arrows seem to be the only way to get the sun back to the front after a stray click sends it behind it really annoying.  If we cannot go back to the previous day cycle slider, it would be nice if there was a quick one press toggle to bring to front/send to back.

I agree with you. The day cycle slider was a very useful feature to have.

Edited by Stevie Davros
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8 hours ago, bear Thymus said:

Specilars in materials are now just UGLY....I love the new EEP in general where everything is looking much crisper and far more reactive to day and night cycles, but it has totally screwed up speculars. both Avatars and objects look horrible and like nasty cheap wet plastic.

I feel this needs to be prioritised as an issue as people spend a lot of money on avatars and builds and to see things ruined is not only sould destroying but actually puts you off from using Second Life.... nobody wants to use Ugly software

This is my biggest issue right now. My dragon avatar used to have vibrant, sharp, colorful speculars on its scales. But with the FS EEP Beta he looks like a dull plastic toy. I haven't uploaded any recent shots to Flickr cause he just looks so poorly.

think earlier in the thread this has already been mentioned, and someone said it was not only filed on JIRA but also already fixed in a more recent main viewer beta. So us FS folks just gotta wait til it rolls out to us, hopefully.

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3 hours ago, Stevie Davros said:

The Sun is still below the horizon. Try clicking the E and N arrows until it just peeps above the horizon and the little yellow sun light up bright, like the moon is on the right side. If you are after a pre-dawn glow, you need to move the Glow Focus slider across to the left into negative territory and reduce the Glow Size to about 1.80.

Thanks Steve for your advice but I can find no way to get the sun to light up (regain the glow) when it rises above the horizon, no matter where I drag and no matter how I move it.

I believe this is a bug and I'll just have to wait until it's fixed. Luckily it's not very important. Twice a day when for no known reason the glow shifts from the sun to the moon or vice versa,  causinga sudden change in the overall lighting, noticed only by me.

I think there should be two glow settings, one for the sun and one for the moon. That the moon now captures the glow from time to time is probably a  bug, not a feature.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Anne Cord said:

Thanks Steve for your advice but I can find no way to get the sun to light up (regain the glow) when it rises above the horizon, no matter where I drag and no matter how I move it.

I believe this is a bug and I'll just have to wait until it's fixed. Luckily it's not very important. Twice a day when for no known reason the glow shifts from the sun to the moon or vice versa,  causinga sudden change in the overall lighting, noticed only by me.

I think there should be two glow settings, one for the sun and one for the moon. That the moon now captures the glow from time to time is probably a  bug, not a feature.

 

 

I agree Anne, I also have noticed when you set the Glow Focus to negative to provide sky backlighting away from the Sun, then the position of the Sun goes unnaturally dark, which in real life does not happen. The Sun glow should decrease so that there in no discernible disk showing, but not darken beyond that. I shall post a bug report on this. It has major impacts on the sky lighting affecting way more than just the clouds.

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36 minutes ago, Stevie Davros said:

I agree Anne, I also have noticed when you set the Glow Focus to negative to provide sky backlighting away from the Sun, then the position of the Sun goes unnaturally dark, which in real life does not happen. The Sun glow should decrease so that there in no discernible disk showing, but not darken beyond that. I shall post a bug report on this. It has major impacts on the sky lighting affecting way more than just the clouds.

This all echoes my earlier post about usability.  I am sure (for some) this new interface offers facilities that are useful once the intricacies have been mastered, but many will feel the lack of the simple slider that provided a quick and intuitive way to change the 'time of day'.  I - for one - plead for that to be retained (perhaps alongside the more complex, if arcane, sun and moon gimbals).

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14 hours ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

What EEP release are you talking about? The is no actual Firestorm EEP release out yet due to the amount of bugs EEP still has - there is only a public beta for people to have a peek. But I forgive you overlooking that fact while raging...

And you can't read nor understand what was meant apparently. So i'll spell it out for you: You WILL have a release out someday, one that you thought fixed EEP to the point its not completely broken anymore and worth releasing but all you did was delay your EEP release for months on end, just to end up with a "fixed" release that doesn't fix anything, still has millions of bugs making EEP basically useless and you will then have to sort out all these bugs that you actually wanted to have fixed before you do the release to come up with a new release over half a year later. The fun part comes when the EEP fixes for all the issues in your release have been made public a week or two before you did your release and you release a broken unfixed EEP regardless. Everyone else will enjoy a fixed EEP a couple weeks later and you'll keep your users on a broken version for another 6 months minimum. Wouldn't be the first time this happened -> high res snapshots, that i told LL about in a meeting, told YOU about, that it was broken and that i already fixed it. Your release a month or two later still had broken high res snapshots even though i CLEARLY warned you (and everyone else), i did the extra step of warning you and you still managed to screw it up. I was originally planning not to tell you but apparently that wasn't even necessary because you released an update regardless. Its funny because it only ever happens like once in a lifetime (maybe twice if you count the second round of snapshot window improvements which were directly aimed at YOUR user's complains... and are now stuck in development hell) that i decide to help you and you still manage to ignore it, screw it up or whatever.

Anyway continue to keep most of SL waiting for EEP, tell them to cherish the days they have left before they get EEP because i can see your house burning already when EEP goes out.

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4 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

And you can't read nor understand what was meant apparently. So i'll spell it out for you: You WILL have a release out someday, one that you thought fixed EEP to the point its not completely broken anymore and worth releasing but all you did was delay your EEP release for months on end, just to end up with a "fixed" release that doesn't fix anything, still has millions of bugs making EEP basically useless and you will then have to sort out all these bugs that you actually wanted to have fixed before you do the release to come up with a new release over half a year later. The fun part comes when the EEP fixes for all the issues in your release have been made public a week or two before you did your release and you release a broken unfixed EEP regardless. Everyone else will enjoy a fixed EEP a couple weeks later and you'll keep your users on a broken version for another 6 months minimum. Wouldn't be the first time this happened -> high res snapshots, that i told LL about in a meeting, told YOU about, that it was broken and that i already fixed it. Your release a month or two later still had broken high res snapshots even though i CLEARLY warned you (and everyone else), i did the extra step of warning you and you still managed to screw it up. I was originally planning not to tell you but apparently that wasn't even necessary because you released an update regardless. Its funny because it only ever happens like once in a lifetime (maybe twice if you count the second round of snapshot window improvements which were directly aimed at YOUR user's complains... and are now stuck in development hell) that i decide to help you and you still manage to ignore it, screw it up or whatever.

Anyway continue to keep most of SL waiting for EEP, tell them to cherish the days they have left before they get EEP because i can see your house burning already when EEP goes out.

And you have bugs in your viewer we already fixed years ago - shouldn't you be ashamed right now? How can you dare to have your users live with these bugs for years? In your position I would be careful who you start fingerpointing at, especially if your viewer contains an actual TPVP violation you only get away with because apparently Oz doesn't seem to care since it only affects 250 users or so...

But for now I am happily waiting for your lesson about release managent which is most likely coming up next - I'm sure it will be good for a laugh or giggle at least!

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7 hours ago, edgeofreason said:

This all echoes my earlier post about usability.  I am sure (for some) this new interface offers facilities that are useful once the intricacies have been mastered, but many will feel the lack of the simple slider that provided a quick and intuitive way to change the 'time of day'.  I - for one - plead for that to be retained (perhaps alongside the more complex, if arcane, sun and moon gimbals).

I'm not sure what you mean about changing the 'time of day' because the time of a preset is set by a slider.  I do wish the interface would display azimuth and elevation for both sun and  moon in text boxes where you could specify the exact values instead of guessing them by moving dots around in a graphic. As it stands,  it's really hard to make sun and moon move along a constant orbital plane from one preset to the next. (An even cooler feature would allow you to set global parameters specifying the inclination and reference direction for the orbital plane that would hold for all the presets, and the location of the sun or moon would be depend only on the time of the preset. I would also like free cake every Monday.)

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15 hours ago, Dragon Hijinks said:

This is my biggest issue right now. My dragon avatar used to have vibrant, sharp, colorful speculars on its scales. But with the FS EEP Beta he looks like a dull plastic toy. I haven't uploaded any recent shots to Flickr cause he just looks so poorly.

think earlier in the thread this has already been mentioned, and someone said it was not only filed on JIRA but also already fixed in a more recent main viewer beta. So us FS folks just gotta wait til it rolls out to us, hopefully.

The issue with specular maps are too intense under local lights, might have been fixed in said RC viewer. Unfortunately, the completely broken encoding of specular maps under the sun/moon is not.

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2 hours ago, Anne Cord said:

I'm not sure what you mean about changing the 'time of day' because the time of a preset is set by a slider.  I do wish the interface would display azimuth and elevation for both sun and  moon in text boxes where you could specify the exact values instead of guessing them by moving dots around in a graphic. As it stands,  it's really hard to make sun and moon move along a constant orbital plane from one preset to the next. (An even cooler feature would allow you to set global parameters specifying the inclination and reference direction for the orbital plane that would hold for all the presets, and the location of the sun or moon would be depend only on the time of the preset. I would also like free cake every Monday.)

I must be missing something then - cos all I seem to have at my disposal is this unbelievably complicated and unhepful set of controls. If that helpfu old slider with dawn at one end - midday in the middle - and midnight towards the end has been moved somewhere, you would make me very happy by telling me where 🙂

https://gyazo.com/1f71c9c7c67cb72c48d99e36d96a0fef

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59 minutes ago, edgeofreason said:

I must be missing something then - cos all I seem to have at my disposal is this unbelievably complicated and unhepful set of controls. If that helpfu old slider with dawn at one end - midday in the middle - and midnight towards the end has been moved somewhere, you would make me very happy by telling me where 🙂

https://gyazo.com/1f71c9c7c67cb72c48d99e36d96a0fef

What you're showing is the dialog box for creating a single environment setting.  You need to create a day cycle and import it, or you can create individual settings from the day cycle editors. You will see (among other things) a panel like the one in the picture below, where you can control the time of day your environments will show up. One way to create your first day cycle is to right click on a folder in  your inventory (the folded called Settings would be your best place), the select New Settings -> New Day Cycle, change its name to something descriptive, then double click on it.

https://gyazo.com/2c8c79df950af4ba14f5bfae5e145b07

 

Inara Pey has an excellent tutorial about these things at:

https://modemworld.me/2020/04/21/tutorial-environment-enhancements-project-eep/

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Anne Cord said:

What you're showing is the dialog box for creating a single environment setting.  You need to create a day cycle and import it, or you can create individual settings from the day cycle editors. You will see (among other things) a panel like the one in the picture below, where you can control the time of day your environments will show up. One way to create your first day cycle is to right click on a folder in  your inventory (the folded called Settings would be your best place), the select New Settings -> New Day Cycle, change its name to something descriptive, then double click on it.

https://gyazo.com/2c8c79df950af4ba14f5bfae5e145b07

 

Inara Pey has an excellent tutorial about these things at:

https://modemworld.me/2020/04/21/tutorial-environment-enhancements-project-eep/

 

 

Thanks I will take a look at the tutorial. My point is that I don't want to  create anything - I simply want to be able to adjust where the sun is when I hop from one sim to another.  At the moment that is easily done with a simple slider that is directly accessible.  Under EEP making. a simple tweak to a setting seems rather like a major mission.

 

I hope I am wrong - thanks for pointing me to the tutorial. I will take a look - but it shouldn't *need* a tutorial to acheive it - it should be obvious. It's a usability issue. 🙂

 

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21 minutes ago, edgeofreason said:

Thanks I will take a look at the tutorial. My point is that I don't want to  create anything - I simply want to be able to adjust where the sun is when I hop from one sim to another.  At the moment that is easily done with a simple slider that is directly accessible.  Under EEP making. a simple tweak to a setting seems rather like a major mission.

. 🙂

 

What  you're looking for is a simple way to adjust the elevation of the sun, not the time of day. That feature has disappeared in EEP; setting elevation (and the azimuth) is now very clumsy and difficult to do with any precision, and impossible to know exactly what the values are, a critical need for those of us who have calculated exactly what the values should be.

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