Environmental Enhancement Project (aka EEP!) Feedback Thread

[dstauffsl2]

18 hours ago, Miller Thor said:

@dstauffsl That's the joke of the day. No serious photographer uses an SL viewer? But then I wonder how you and others log in SL. Every viewer, regardless of whether Firestorm, Black Dragon or the standard viewer of Linden Labs is an SL viewer because it was designed for use in Second Life. The problem is not the viewer but how the respective setting was set. My wife and I have worked on our settings for days and tested again and again to make it look as natural as possible. All just a matter of patience. Here are some pictures taken with the standard viewer that show our regions at different times of day and with different weather settings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you can easily see, it is only a matter of patience, learning and a good eye for the right look to make a region look good with EEP.

Enclosed should be noted. The days when your SL photographer was still the true artist are long gone. Today, kids at school are already learning how to use Photoshop or other imaging programs, and they'll soon be able to do it better than you old age ever could. So get off your high horse back down to the ground of reality.

Sorry typo. No serious photographer uses a LL viewer. That takes the steam out of your little ***** rant. Oh and here's my land BEFORE the sky got ruined.

Edited April 19, 2019 by dstauffsl2

[loverdag]

15 hours ago, Miller Thor said:

And so from the other Side:

 

 

And here for comparison the real picture. We are very close to reality with our setting, but we are still working to perfect it.

The RL photo used as example is really bad in the meaning of technical quality.

Automated expossure usually "guess" there is about 18% of light reflection back from ground, but on snowy landscapes and / or in some specific circumstanes (like taking photo against Sun) there is much more - and thats goal of good photographer to set that manually for the particular situation and to try to remove (or at least minimalise) the white parts. The shown photo has really big part lost in the white, I would personaly consider it junk and delete it, if it would by mine. And I would do exactly same with the shown SL photo for very same reason - the white stain. 

I can talk only for myself, but I do beleive I'm not alone who try to take HIGH QUALITY SL landscape photography and not pictures comparable with RL photo I do really consider technicaly not good.

We are all different with different goals and "high quality picture" has probably different meanings for different people. 

Please do not expect people complaining about the quality of EEP sky will stop because YOU personaly do not have issues with that. We have issues with the change and we have reasons for that. If you don't, good for you, but please do not force us your point of view and do not expect us to be happy with such a downgrade compare the old WL pre-EEP options. 

[Penny Patton]

On 4/14/2019 at 6:59 PM, NiranV Dean said:

 

 

I can't speak for all of Niran's complaints (I assume some of them have to do with EEP not being quite ready for prime time yet, but will be worked out before LL considers EEP "done") but this screenshot stuck out to me. I have to wonder if the problem here isn't EEP at all, but an alpha sorting issue? It always annoys me that some of those "sim surround terrains" use textures with entirely unnecessary alpha channels.

On 4/16/2019 at 1:23 PM, Fushichou Mfume said:

And yeah, about NOT optimizing for mesh... WTF? Forcing us to choose between looking like Ruth just so we can socialize is NOT a choice. People want to mesh. They want to look good. So figure out how to constrain and guide the mesh makers so that you can effectively optimize for mesh.

 

On 4/16/2019 at 4:44 PM, Cube Republic said:

It's up to the creators to optimize the mesh avatars and clothing for the second life system.

Hi Cube. In an ideal world, you'd be absolutely right that it's up to the creators. We do not live in an ideal world. Most SL content creators don't know the first thing about creating content for realtime 3D rendering. And when I say "most" I mean nearly all of them. Those of us who do understand things like the need to optimize our work are rare exceptions. And this fact by itself is not necessarily a bad thing. SL has always opened up content creation to everyone, it's one of it's biggest selling points. But when a developer decides to do this, they need to account for how their users will misuse this ability if you let them.

 It is beyond unreasonable to expect SL content creators to optimize their work without an outside influence. Few of them understand why it is necessary, and if you try to explain it they are so set in their ways they will choose to believe the Earth is flat before they'll accept the need for optimization. They'll kick and scream and call you names, call you a Nazi and a jihadist. They'll concoct elaborate conspiracy theories on how a handful of "elitists" are trying to take away their creative freedom, and that high poly, VRAM intensive content has absolutely no effect on performance. And don't expect any moderation from the Lindens. According to at least one Linden moderator, that behaviour is perfectly acceptable.

 Content optimization is not going to happen. Not without LL stepping in. There's plenty they could do as far as that goes, without disrupting existing content or shackling creativity at all. Hopefully one day they'll realize that.

[Whirly Fizzle]

45 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

I can't speak for all of Niran's complaints (I assume some of them have to do with EEP not being quite ready for prime time yet, but will be worked out before LL considers EEP "done") but this screenshot stuck out to me. I have to wonder if the problem here isn't EEP at all, but an alpha sorting issue? It always annoys me that some of those "sim surround terrains" use textures with entirely unnecessary alpha channels.

It reproduces with Linden Terrain too & the textures on the Linden terrain have no alpha channels.

I filed a bug for it.
BUG-226762 - [EEP] Sun & moon textures with transparency render on top of Linden terrain and objects

[Penny Patton]

I'm still optimistic on EEP. Rider is good people. Even if he's scared to reply to some of these posts, I'm sure he's listening and taking notes. X3

[Whirly Fizzle]

6 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

I'm still optimistic on EEP. Rider is good people. Even if he's scared to reply to some of these posts, I'm sure he's listening and taking notes. X3

EEP is great.  The actual EEPing functionality is solid.
The problem is all those new shaders & shader changes that have caused so many rendering bugs & as soon as one is fixed another 5 rear their ugly heads.
Rider is awesome - the shader stuff isn't his doing.

I don't know how viable this is but if it was up to me I'd strip out all the shader changes that come with EEP & plan to release EEP with just the basic EEP functionality. Then have a follow on EEP 2 project adding back all the shader stuff.
Or honestly just scrap the shader stuff all together. The rainbows & halos are nice but the rest of the shader changes don't improve the look of a scene imo.
 

[Linnrenate Crosby]

15 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Yes this is a bug that started after the grid was rolled back to the previous OS version yesterday.

Here is the bug report: BUG-226815 - [EEP] Since the grid was rolled to 19.04.15.526263 yesterday, region windlight is broken for all legacy viewers - settings reset on Apply.

What OS rollback ??? Are you saying they actually rolled back to pre-EEP (crosses fingers)?

[Whirly Fizzle]

2 hours ago, Linnrenate Crosby said:

What OS rollback ??? Are you saying they actually rolled back to pre-EEP (crosses fingers)?

No, the OS update was rolled back from the servers in an attempt to fix the TP disconnects.
https://modemworld.me/2019/04/19/linux-jessie-update-a-cause-of-sl-tp-issues/

[Linnrenate Crosby]

Damn... i was hoping for the return of the non-EEP

[Linnrenate Crosby]

4 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

No, the OS update was rolled back from the servers in an attempt to fix the TP disconnects.
https://modemworld.me/2019/04/19/linux-jessie-update-a-cause-of-sl-tp-issues/

Well that hasn't helped for me one bit.... still suffer for damn long TP that in the end fail and disconnect me

 

[dstauffsl2]

9 hours ago, Linnrenate Crosby said:

Damn... i was hoping for the return of the non-EEP

I'm playing FFXIV now. Can't tolerate the amateur graphics since the EEP improvement. They ruined SL for me.

[NiranV Dean]

17 hours ago, dstauffsl2 said:

I'm playing FFXIV now. Can't tolerate the amateur graphics since the EEP improvement. They ruined SL for me.

"Amateur graphics"

lol. You're trolling right? EEP is a miniscule improvement without proper atmospheric scattering. You really haven't seen what SL is capable of if you think pre-EEP are "amateur graphics" in comparison to EEP. Current EEP implementation is more like a framework to build upon (and not a good one at that)

Edited April 21, 2019 by NiranV Dean

[dstauffsl2]

1 hour ago, NiranV Dean said:

"Amateur graphics"

lol. You're trolling right? EEP is a miniscule improvement without proper atmospheric scattering. You really haven't seen what SL is capable of if you think pre-EEP are "amateur graphics" in comparison to EEP. Current EEP implementation is more like a framework to build upon (and not a good one at that)

The graphics were fine before EEP.

[Coffee Pancake]

Complaining about SL's amateur graphics is kinda missing the point .. by a country mile.

[Marianne McCann]

On 4/20/2019 at 5:29 AM, Whirly Fizzle said:

EEP is great.  The actual EEPing functionality is solid.
The problem is all those new shaders & shader changes that have caused so many rendering bugs & as soon as one is fixed another 5 rear their ugly heads.
Rider is awesome - the shader stuff isn't his doing.

I don't know how viable this is but if it was up to me I'd strip out all the shader changes that come with EEP & plan to release EEP with just the basic EEP functionality. Then have a follow on EEP 2 project adding back all the shader stuff.
Or honestly just scrap the shader stuff all together. The rainbows & halos are nice but the rest of the shader changes don't improve the look of a scene imo.
 

That's one of the frustrations for me as well. I want a sky that looks like the sky looks pre-EEP, but with the features EEP promises, plus, if possible, a few new extra. Kinda in that order. Oh, and yes, I would love better windows for 'em, too, but that's after the first bits.

[NiranV Dean]

3 hours ago, dstauffsl2 said:

The graphics were fine before EEP.

I see. You meant they are now broken rather than "you can't stand pre-EEP anymore since you've seen EEP".

[dstauffsl2]

1 hour ago, NiranV Dean said:

I see. You meant they are now broken rather than "you can't stand pre-EEP anymore since you've seen EEP".

Yes I loved pre-EEP SL. I photographed skies. https://www.flickr.com/photos/99805182@N05/   My ability to photograph has been effectively ruined. No real will to log in now.

[Linnrenate Crosby]

beautiful pictures dstauffsl2 I sort of switching between SL and GTA5 that also have great sky and graphics.... and something SL are missing... rain particles that don't pass into buildings

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Linnrenate Crosby

[NiranV Dean]

8 hours ago, dstauffsl2 said:

Yes I loved pre-EEP SL. I photographed skies. https://www.flickr.com/photos/99805182@N05/   My ability to photograph has been effectively ruined. No real will to log in now.

Whaa... why am i the only one who haven't seen these "issues" in pre-EEP yet. I still see all my normal windlights, no black stars, no randomly changing presets, presets all look fine and work fine... haven't had any of my users complain that presets are broken either...

[Whirly Fizzle]

13 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

Whaa... why am i the only one who haven't seen these "issues" in pre-EEP yet. I still see all my normal windlights, no black stars, no randomly changing presets, presets all look fine and work fine... haven't had any of my users complain that presets are broken either...

You'll only see the problems if you render the region windlight/estate time.
Using a local windlight override or the "legacy" Firestorm parcel windlight still works just fine.

[Whirly Fizzle]

Be aware that since the grid rolled last week in an attempt to fix the TP disconnects (which doesn't seem to have worked), region windlight is even more broken now.
Bug report: BUG-226815 - [EEP] Since the grid was rolled to 19.04.15.526263 yesterday, region windlight is broken for all legacy viewers - settings reset on Apply.

[NiranV Dean]

2 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

You'll only see the problems if you render the region windlight/estate time.
Using a local windlight override or the "legacy" Firestorm parcel windlight still works just fine.

Doesn't surprise me my users don't have these issues, no one uses regio-light, everyone just makes their own stuff or uses their presets and edits them.

[Penny Patton]

4 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

You'll only see the problems if you render the region windlight/estate time.
Using a local windlight override or the "legacy" Firestorm parcel windlight still works just fine.

I was wondering about that.

 I always use my own sky settings and haven't noticed any issues. A lot of the user frustration seems to stem from the less than great communication. LL effectively broke region windlight before EEP was ready to roll out to the userbase. There might be a practical or technical reason why they had to do this, but how they handled it could have maybe been done in a better way, from a user satisfaction standpoint. Maybe had a mandatory viewer update, for people using LL's viewer, with the only real change being having everyone quietly switched to override settings rather than region settings in preferences, with an explanation for this on the login screen, and communicating this to TPV devs ahead of time.

 Of course, without knowing the full picture of what's going on inside LL, all we can do is speculate. This might have been their least worst option as far as things go.

[Linnrenate Crosby]

Maybe this is a bit harsh, but i wonder when Linden Lab will realize that EEP are as big fluke as Sansar has tuned out to be. I mean what was wrong with wind-light being viewer-side effect except for the files not being centralized?

@Whirly Fizzle i might start charging rent from you when you land on my land so often :p

Edited April 23, 2019 by Linnrenate Crosby

[NiranV Dean]

24 minutes ago, Linnrenate Crosby said:

Maybe this is a bit harsh, but i wonder when Linden Lab will realize that EEP are as big fluke as Sansar has tuned out to be. I mean what was wrong with wind-light being viewer-side effect except for the files not being centralized?

@Whirly Fizzle i might start charging rent from you when you land on my land so often :p

The basic idea of EEP was good. More features and new graphical stuff. Their implementation and how they handled the inventory part however is way over the top. You can ruin an entire good project with a simple bad decision. In this case it was making the presets a full fledged marketable item and handling it as such (seeing copying local graphical presets as violation of the permission system)