Lag from neighbours

[Olivia Rizzo]

(Apologies if this has been asked a thousand times. I have tried to use the search but not found the answer)

Basically - I have a small parcel - just 20 x 40 metres with my little house in it. But when I walk around I sometimes can hardly move, or then I will sink into the floor then suddenly reset to floor level. I have turned on the lag meter and it says server lag is bad (it shows in red). It is on mainland in an adult area. I have a modest amount of furniture.

My understanding is that this type of lag is largely caused by too many scripts in the sim. I have had an explore and high above me just to one side is a huge deserted adult club in a castle in the air. I had a nosy around and it is full of *interesting* and complicated-looking equipment. It seems to be completely abandoned (I have never seen anyone there in 'radar'). I contacted the land owner some time ago (and sent a notecard) and have had no response. Maybe they no longer use Second Life.

So three questions:

1. Is there a range from my parcel within which other people's scripts can affect performance back in my parcel, or is it the whole sim?

2. If I am affected by the whole sim how big is a sim? I have looked on https://maps.secondlife.com but can't see sim borders.

3. Is there no policy of de-rezzing objects or at least disabling scripts in abandoned places? If not it seems to be this could be a good policy from LL. Though... I suppose the tenant must still be paying for the land on a monthly basis?

[Alyona Su]

There is something in the sim that's taking up its resources and it may not be scripts. It could be any number of things - highly-animated objects, and overload of temp-rezzers, bots (Are you the only person on the sim?)

My recommendation is to sell or abandon the place and look for a new one in another sim because there's no sense in spending money on a place if you cannot enjoy it.

[Qie Niangao]

6 hours ago, livb89 said:

1. Is there a range from my parcel within which other people's scripts can affect performance back in my parcel, or is it the whole sim?

2. If I am affected by the whole sim how big is a sim? I have looked on https://maps.secondlife.com but can't see sim borders.

3. Is there no policy of de-rezzing objects or at least disabling scripts in abandoned places? If not it seems to be this could be a good policy from LL. Though... I suppose the tenant must still be paying for the land on a monthly basis?

A sim is 256x256 meters -- which isn't terribly helpful unless you're already thinking about SL land in terms of "meters". The Map shown by a viewer gives a better sense of where the boundaries are, but to get an idea in the browser you can also look at https://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Bronlen/  in the Kama City section of Adult Mainland where each sim block spans from mid-street to mid-street.

There certainly can be lag from scripts, but scripts usually only lag other scripts rather than causing the kind of problems you describe ("can hardly move, or then I will sink into the floor then suddenly reset to floor level"). So there's some likelihood that something else besides scripts is causing this trouble. That may or may not matter, depending whether we can find a way to fix the problem at that location or if you'll need to move as Alyona suggests.

Most scripts in static objects don't much compete even with other scripts, so de-rezzing those shouldn't be necessary. There are certainly exceptions, though, and if the situation is bad enough the "Land" Lindens may respond to an Abuse Report by removing or disabling items that are using disproportionate resources (especially when they're placed by griefers not landowners).

Land that's owned by an individual on which tier goes unpaid will revert to "abandoned" fairly quickly (maybe within about a month of non-payment? not sure exactly) but group-deeded land often remains unreclaimed for months (at least) with little or no tier contributed. (There used to be a way for mere mortals to tell if a group has enough tier donated to cover its land holdings, but I think that's no longer possible.)

[Garnet Psaltery]

The land can be abandoned and still contain a lot of working items, as I know from when I lived briefly on the mainland this year where a parcel had been abandoned but a huge sky platform still existed with its luxury dwelling and adult toys.  Of course the members still went there - they couldn't rez but they could certainly use the items.

[Alyona Su]

59 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

The land can be abandoned and still contain a lot of working items, as I know from when I lived briefly on the mainland this year where a parcel had been abandoned but a huge sky platform still existed with its luxury dwelling and adult toys.  Of course the members still went there - they couldn't rez but they could certainly use the items.

Eventually, a Linden will come by and clean out the land. I did this once and it took about two weeks before all my stuff was returned by {Someone} Linden on parcel "Abandoned Land" - yadda, yadda. I figure anywhere between a week and month until someone cleans things up. BUT, that doesn't make you wrong at all. Because that could still be a long wait for the clean-up if that stuff *is* causing issues.

[Garnet Psaltery]

38 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Eventually, a Linden will come by and clean out the land. I did this once and it took about two weeks before all my stuff was returned by {Someone} Linden on parcel "Abandoned Land" - yadda, yadda. I figure anywhere between a week and month until someone cleans things up. BUT, that doesn't make you wrong at all. Because that could still be a long wait for the clean-up if that stuff *is* causing issues.

This was some 5-6 months ago.  The things are still there.

[Alyona Su]

10 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

This was some 5-6 months ago.  The things are still there.

I did say "eventually" LOL - Send a ticket.

[Garnet Psaltery]

3 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I did say "eventually" LOL - Send a ticket.

Yes, I hadn't been back there for a while, but will do that.

[Olivia Rizzo]

6 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Are you the only person on the sim?

No I believe the Sim is called Moorsby (unless I am confused about what a sim is)  and as far as I know it's a very area so must have lots of tenants.

I wasn't sure if things far away from me (but still in the SIM) could affect my lag.

[Olivia Rizzo]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

A sim is 256x256 meters -- which isn't terribly helpful unless you're already thinking about SL land in terms of "meters". The Map shown by a viewer gives a better sense of where the boundaries are, but to get an idea in the browser you can also look at https://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Bronlen/  in the Kama City section of Adult Mainland where each sim block spans from mid-street to mid-street.

Aha ok - so smaller than I thought – in terms of land area at least. Though having explored further *up* today I see the sky is quite busy all the way up to 4000 metres.

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

There certainly can be lag from scripts, but scripts usually only lag other scripts rather than causing the kind of problems you describe ("can hardly move, or then I will sink into the floor then suddenly reset to floor level"). So there's some likelihood that something else besides scripts is causing this trouble. 

Thank you - that is good to know.

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Land that's owned by an individual on which tier goes unpaid will revert to "abandoned" fairly quickly (maybe within about a month of non-payment? not sure exactly) but group-deeded land often remains unreclaimed for months (at least) with little or no tier contributed. 

Interesting... So it is possible for 'stale' parcels to linger then. Good to learn, thank you!

 

 

 

[Olivia Rizzo]

Thank you to everyone for the helpful (as ever) replies above - so lovely!

Also thanks to the person who contacted me by IM and gave me lots of really detailed advice about contacting support and so on.

It sounds like I can get to the bottom of this and - of course - always move if it comes to that. Perhaps I don't really need to be in an adult area at all - maybe moderate areas are less likely to be filled with objects that generally cause lag (just an educated guess). And my parcel is only for private use anyway.

I will read up more on this. It's my first land parcel which I basically took because a friend gave it me for free.

[Hintswen Guardian]

4 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Eventually, a Linden will come by and clean out the land. I did this once and it took about two weeks before all my stuff was returned by {Someone} Linden on parcel "Abandoned Land" - yadda, yadda. I figure anywhere between a week and month until someone cleans things up. BUT, that doesn't make you wrong at all. Because that could still be a long wait for the clean-up if that stuff *is* causing issues.

In my experience they won't do anything unless someone puts in a ticket.

 

[Claireschen Hesten]

If other land owners in the sim were there before you moved in and it wasn't laggy then it's not impossible something you've rezzed is the cause of the lag, i had something similar a while back bought a decor item that contained two versions one supposedly slightly better than the other, i tried the better version first and it turned my parcel in to trying to move in sludge. so i deleted it tried the other version which looks & works the same and it hasn't caused any lag issues. if your lag problems are recent try removing anything thing you rezzed when you started noticing the lag to see if that cures it

[Qie Niangao]

I took a field trip to Moorsby. A Linden who can see "top scripts" on Mainland regions might do much better, but I didn't find much looking around the sim other than to confirm that there is indeed a "scripts lagging scripts" problem here, with about 8000 active scripts in 1000 active objects, so about half the scripts have to wait to run each frame. Sometimes worse, and I visited during what may be a slow time. At that time, there was no time dilation at all, so what may feel like physics lag must be something else.

As far as I could tell, there's no temp-rezzing on any of the parcels on the region.

One thing that might slow down a viewer (interfering with smooth avatar movement) is a lot of object updates sent by animated objects. One object that's not helping anybody is a "[ContraptioN] Wainwright's Toys: Love Bug SPECIAL EDITION" that's kinda caught between two walls and flailing about, sending constant updates despite being hidden where nobody can see it. That funky vampire castle dungeon that floats low overhead has a couple update-noisy fires, "C4 upper fire" and "c4 fire Misc", but I doubt they're contributing much to the problem. Also inside that castle there's a dance floor with constantly moving blended alpha overhead lighting beams that would lag most any viewer looking at the scene -- but when not looking at the scene, it shouldn't matter much.

It's not a very satisfying survey. I didn't really have major lag effects on my avatar while visiting, so maybe the main cause wasn't even present while I was there. It is worrisome that a sim with some abandoned and for sale land nonetheless is already getting script-on-script lag -- if all that were ever bought and populated with normal script load, that lag would be even worse.

[Olivia Rizzo]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I took a field trip to Moorsby.

Oh wow - yes I did see you hovering not far from my parcel not so long ago.

Thanks so much for taking a look around. For me the 'walking through treacle' thing is intermittent. I have the problem on three different computers (one very new and fast) so I don't think it is client lag but always possible. I will avoid that 'Love Bug' toy. And also try removing some HUDs to see if it makes any difference.

And yes – lots of the land in Moorsby is empty so it is surprising that it's laggy. But... I rezzed a simple platform, sat on it, and took it gradually up to 4000 metres - to see if i could find some clear airspace for a skybox (hoping for less lag). And found it was quite busy with floating structures all the way up. Some very large. I suppose outside a certain range they should hopefully not affect me on the ground.

[ChinRey]

Net time peaks:

The highest I saw was over 41 ms but I didn't get to catch that one on a screenshot.

 

[Klytyna]

On 26 September 2018 at 9:48 AM, livb89 said:

But when I walk around I sometimes can hardly move, or then I will sink into the floor then suddenly reset to floor level. I have turned on the lag meter and it says server lag is bad (it shows in red).

That is usually either physics based lag or something exotic like net time...

On 26 September 2018 at 9:48 AM, livb89 said:

My understanding is that this type of lag is largely caused by too many scripts in the sim.

No... Script lag is different, it just means scripts are slow to respond or don't respond...

On 26 September 2018 at 9:48 AM, livb89 said:

So three questions:

1. Is there a range from my parcel within which other people's scripts can affect performance back in my parcel, or is it the whole sim?

2. If I am affected by the whole sim how big is a sim? I have looked on https://maps.secondlife.com but can't see sim borders.

3. Is there no policy of de-rezzing objects or at least disabling scripts in abandoned places? If not it seems to be this could be a good policy from LL. Though... I suppose the tenant must still be paying for the land on a monthly basis?

1. No... Script based lag affects a whole sim.

2. 256 x 256, look on the map inworld, and you'll see the name of each sim displayed in the bottom left corner, handy way to see roughly where sims start and end.

3. NO, and NO... Don't assume a parcel is "abandoned" just because YOU don't see people there when YOU are online... I'm a Brit (Timezone GMT), should I assume that "Club Aussie" (Timezone 11 hours ago tomorrow) is abandoned because I am not online when the aussies are?

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

Net time peaks:

The highest I saw was over 41 ms but I didn't get to catch that one on a screenshot.

 

Ahhh...

Main agents 3... Ok reasonably close to empty... Child agents 14 ? Hmmm

Objects, 10k ish, a half filled sim, since prim usage is tied to land area, that suggests that the sim isn't as "empty" as the OP said, oh there may be little at ground level, everyone's skyboxing to avoid lag...

Scripts 7k, 48% run, I've seen and lived in worse, script events isn't that bad compared to a lot of places, so it's mostly static items like furniture that don't do a lot when not in use.

Net Time... 14 ms with spikes upto 41 ms?

Dark Gods of the Grid...

Ok, two possibilities suggest themselves...

1. The Sim server it's self is borked, and LL need a ticket to tell them to come and fix it, or

2. Some of the scripted items are using way way too much http, contacting external databases, vendor systems maybe, or breedables constantly resending their life-status, media on a prim overload perhaps, hard to say.

Either way, this needs a Linden Clan member to come look at the scripts/http use/server so file a support ticket or contact LiveChat and ask.

Odds are though that this isn't "Club Empty" and its furniture, at fault.

 

[Olivia Rizzo]

2 hours ago, Klytyna said:

3. NO, and NO... Don't assume a parcel is "abandoned" just because YOU don't see people there when YOU are online... I'm a Brit (Timezone GMT), should I assume that "Club Aussie" (Timezone 11 hours ago tomorrow) is abandoned because I am not online when the aussies arise

I am not making any assumptions, I only said "maybe" it is abandoned

Naturally it is up to Linden Lab to determine that. From one of the answers above it sounds as though there is a loophole where "group-deeded land often remains unreclaimed for months".

2 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Objects, 10k ish, a half filled sim, since prim usage is tied to land area, that suggests that the sim isn't as "empty" as the OP said, oh there may be little at ground level, everyone's skyboxing to avoid lag...

Yes there are LOTS of skyboxes going up to 4000 metres. Some big public group use places it seems.

The stats screenshot goes a little over my head as totally new to this. But from the sounds of it something unusual is going on?

Thanks for your other suggestions - and yes a support ticket is being placed tonight - just been busy with RL stuff.

Thank you!

 

 

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Net Time... 14 ms with spikes upto 41 ms?

That 14 ms was a peak too. Most of the time net time was 1 ms-ish but I saw several peaks and I only stayed in the sim for a few minutes.

 

1 hour ago, livb89 said:

The stats screenshot goes a little over my head as totally new to this. But from the sounds of it something unusual is going on?

The list of times isn't that hard to udnerstand actually. The server has a list of tasks to do and it's supposed to be given a new list about 45 times a second, which means it has about 22 ms assigned before it starts anew on a new cycle (or "frame" as it is called). If it runs out of time, well, either it has to overtime and be late for the enxt frame or it has to skip some tasks. Usually it does both.

[Ivanova Shostakovich]

   I have a few parcels on a Zindra region. I share some of it with a friend. Very recently we had movement problems, rubber-banding,  and slow or dropped script event response times in things like huds, furniture, and rezzed shopping bags.

   A look at the lag meter revealed frequent low sim fps and high ping times. We submitted a support ticket describing the problems. A Linden made an investigation and noted where the problems were and reached out to our neighbors with requests to help alleviate them.

   It's all better now.

[Qie Niangao]

16 hours ago, livb89 said:

The stats screenshot goes a little over my head as totally new to this. But from the sounds of it something unusual is going on?

In case it's useful, there's viewer help available for that Statistics Bar. It may provide some hints even though it doesn't cover everything (and some things, like "Pump IO", are an enduring mystery).

Speaking of mysteries: I've come to expect the Time Detail "Sleep Time" to roughly correspond to the "Spare Time" category, but in the screenshot above there's negligible Spare Time but Sleep Time is slightly larger than the total frame time. I've seen some weird accounting during dilation, but I don't think I've ever seen this.

So I'll be very interested what the Lindens find when they handle that support ticket. They probably won't reveal much detail, but it does seem their intervention will be necessary.

[Olivia Rizzo]

8 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

In case it's useful, there's viewer help available for that Statistics Bar. It may provide some hints even though it doesn't cover everything (and some things, like "Pump IO", are an enduring mystery).

Speaking of mysteries: I've come to expect the Time Detail "Sleep Time" to roughly correspond to the "Spare Time" category, but in the screenshot above there's negligible Spare Time but Sleep Time is slightly larger than the total frame time. I've seen some weird accounting during dilation, but I don't think I've ever seen this.

So I'll be very interested what the Lindens find when they handle that support ticket. They probably won't reveal much detail, but it does seem their intervention will be necessary.

Thank you. I will look at that viewer statistics help page.

I filed a support ticket yesterday so hopefully I will hear back soon.

Edited September 28, 2018 by livb89

[Klytyna]

7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

there's viewer help available for that Statistics Bar.

Interesting to note that one of the "undocumented" sections is stated as "Coming soon" on a page that hasn't been updated since 10th January 2012...

Don't you just love the updated technical info LL provides!

 

[Olivia Rizzo]

Hi all

My support ticket got updated:

"The region was in great need of a restart. I have just done that and you should see overall improved performance. Please let me know if you continue to have issues."

Let's hope so. But in any event I have learned a lot here so thanks to everyone for being super nice and helpful.

X

[animats]

Estate managers have a tool that shows the top scripts on a sim.  That's not available on mainland except to Lindens. LL ought to let any landowner on a sim see the list of top scripts. It's not a privacy issue. You can read the names of all the scripts in the objects on a sim, and there are tools which do that.

The net time on that sim is huge. Something there is phoning home, probably unsuccessfully. Some brands of vendors do that. On the sim next to mine, there's some unused DJ equipment which is frantically transmitting object updates, trying to link up with gear it could work with if that gear was around.