Forum becoming more negative?

[Callum Meriman]

Just now, Rya Nitely said:

What are we talking about now?

I believe it's patriachy and toxic masculinity. You quoted...

3 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

There is no patriarchy here, no power struggle.

and replied...

13 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

But here you are talking from your own perspective. It's how you experience it.

and I was responding to that chain.

My appologies if I misunderstand your quote.

[Rya Nitely]

1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

With respect,......

 

?

1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

My appologies if I misunderstand your quote.

Wow thanks Callum ?

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

But here you are talking from your own perspective. It's how you experience it. Do you believe a newbie would also experience it that way? I witness newbies given a hard time much more often than a well known forum member.

Newbies the world over suffer at the hands of the in-crowd. I don't see this behavior as particular to this forum. I also don't see this behavior as right.

It's easy to forget what it was like to be new... or young.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

With respect, that's not patriachy Rya considering more often then the regular females are right there too.

Add in the ambiguity about who's really who and patriarchy is a hard argument to make. I think it's more like hierarchy or seniority... or inbreeding.

;-).

Edited September 28, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Callum Meriman]

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Add in the ambiguity about who's really who and patriarchy is a hard argument to make. I think it's more like hierarchy or seniority... or inbreeding.

;-).

All of those, and clique. And clique is quite common in all groupings of people, but on the forums I think it's a fairly soft clique, not to RP region levels.

I personally think it only takes a few ? votes to help someone feel accepted. I do believe it's very helpful to throw those hearts around freely so people do feel welcome and stick past the first nervous/indignant/happy/whatever posting.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

14 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

All of those, and clique. And clique is quite common in all groupings of people, but on the forums I think it's a fairly soft clique, not to RP region levels.

I personally think it only takes a few ? votes to help someone feel accepted. I do believe it's very helpful to throw those hearts around freely so people do feel welcome and stick past the first nervous/indignant/happy/whatever posting.

The inbreeding I mentioned produces the cliques you mentioned. Mutual admiration is okay if we're not admiring other's admiration of us. I like to meet new people, they haven't heard all my stories... yet. And I'd spread more love if there were a ? button.

ETA: Anyone who's ever taught knows the joy of re-experiencing "a-ha" moments. I truly feel joy when someone new starts to feel comfortable here, reminding me of feeling acceptance in new places myself.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Callum Meriman]

Dunbar's number is 150 and I think that's a pretty ok stab at quantifying the limits of social cohesion. 

We are still a long way from this number in the various forum cliques, so heaps of room left for people to join in.

8 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I'd spread more love if there were a ?  button.

Even if you can't ? a ?at least there is a ? emoji now!

 

I prefer this one           ?   ?  ??   

Edited September 29, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

I prefer this one           ?   ?  ??   

Cats will soon vote to the right, for cheese subsidies for mice? That makes no sense!

Edited September 29, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters

[Roxy Couturier]

52 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Cats will soon vote to the right, for cheese subsidies for mice? That makes no sense!

Stage whispers "The clever cat gets the mouse." or "While the cat's away, the mice will FEAST ON GLORIOUS CHEEEEEEEEEEESE!" it's ambiguous..

[Drake1 Nightfire]

4 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

But here you are talking from your own perspective. It's how you experience it. Do you believe a newbie would also experience it that way? I witness newbies given a hard time much more often than a well known forum member.

Patriarchy is the wrong word.. Gerontocracy would fit better but still not fully accurate. A patriarchy is ruled by men. Men don't hold any more power than women in the forums. We don't rule here.. LL employees do. 

[Pamela Galli]

3 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Newbies the world over suffer at the hands of the in-crowd. I don't see this behavior as particular to this forum. I also don't see this behavior as right.

It's easy to forget what it was like to be new... or young.

As I say in this forum often, much drama could be avoided if people read the forum guidelines  before posting. In the ancient times of the internet, people were often reminded to RTFM.I guess that standard has fallen. 

Other new posters — and they are legion — start a thread that includes insults to a good portion of the forum.

IOW, the problem really has zero to do with the fact the someone is newly posting in this forum.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Pamela Galli

[Madelaine McMasters]

2 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

3 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Newbies the world over suffer at the hands of the in-crowd. I don't see this behavior as particular to this forum. I also don't see this behavior as right.

It's easy to forget what it was like to be new... or young.

As I say in this forum often, much drama could be avoided if people read the forum guidelines  before posting. In the ancient times of the internet, people were often reminded to RTF. I guess that standard has fallen. 

Other new posters — and they are legion — start a thread that includes insults to a good portion of the forum.

IOW, the problem really has zero to do with the fact the someone is newly posting in this forum.

Zero? That's unwarranted certainty, Pam! ;-).

Sure we get spoiled brats, they're easy to ignore. But, I've also seen naive posters get beat on for minor infractions, like saying "Linden Labs". I've been online since before the internet. In virtually every venue where participants were anonymous, I've encountered asshats and clueless people. Though there are certainly a lot more of them now than in 1987, I think that's more a function of the growth of the online population. It really doesn't seem to me like there's a rising tide of self entitlement, just a rising tide of consternation over the perception of it by those a generation older.

Hasn't it always been that way?!

[Pamela Galli]

18 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

But, I've also seen naive posters get beat on for minor infractions, like saying "Linden Labs"

 I do not approve of that kind correction, but getting beat on for it is not for being new to the forum, but calling LL the wrong name. My guess is that most people overlook that mistake in a new poster, it’s those that have been here 10 years that They feel entitled to correct.

Zero may be a hyperbole, but not by much. What  I have observed is that regulars here are quite welcoming to well mannered new people. 

[Callum Meriman]

Just now, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Gerontocracy would fit better

We don't rule here.. LL employees do. 

sorry for the edits to shorten your post Drake , just wanted to say... Are you calling the lab "old"?

*ducks* (probably safer not to answer)

Just now, Madelaine McMasters said:

But, I've also seen naive posters get beat on for minor infractions, like saying "Linden Labs".

Not excusing the behaviour and it doesn't mean I don't roll my eyes, but I can see their point. If a last-namer does it then after 8 years they really should know better.

One that is akin to this for me are the semi-regulars who come in 'boots and all' to correct the Naïve newcomer who dares utter the words "I am having a little trouble getting the game running" as they shout in unison  "How dare you! SL is *not* a game!! There is no goal, no score, no end!!!"

But despite hating this line of attack on the poor new poster, I can also see their point just the same.

(btw: SL is a game, just like playing with Barbie is, Barbie also has no goal, no score, no end)

[Rya Nitely]

There are some people who will never change their views, will not bend an inch, and will find any excuse to justify their actions/views. Oh well, I like being me, and I guess different strokes for different folks.

I feel sorry for people, and I'm proud of that quality - and it's a quality I believe I was born with. I see newbies running from the forums and never daring to return, and that's a shame. So, we end up with just this small group of the same people posting over and over again.

I don't know how I survived being a newbie, because I was always very opinionated, and also sensitive. But I guess I never discuss anything I'm not passionate about, but I do think I can bend, as many others do. And that's healthy.

Admitting I may be a little bit wrong (and a little bit right), and also being able to apologise. That's something to be proud of.

Yeah, I'm humming The Monkeys song now

 

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

Admitting I may be a little bit wrong (and a little bit right), and also being able to apologise. That's something to be proud of.

It’s almost Adult Human behavior! Civilized!

[Madelaine McMasters]

7 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

 

10 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

But, I've also seen naive posters get beat on for minor infractions, like saying "Linden Labs".

Not excusing the behaviour and it doesn't mean I don't roll my eyes, but I can see their point. If a last-namer does it then after 8 years they really should know better.

 

9 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

10 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

But, I've also seen naive posters get beat on for minor infractions, like saying "Linden Labs"

 I do not approve of that kind correction, but getting beat on for it is not for being new to the forum, but calling LL the wrong name. My guess is that most people overlook that mistake in a new poster, it’s those that have been here 10 years that They feel entitled to correct.

Zero may be a hyperbole, but not by much. What  I have observed is that regulars here are quite welcoming to well mannered new people. 

I first learned it was "Linden Lab" upon coming to these forums and observing someone get beat up over it. I'd been in SL 2.5 years by then. I can imagine going eight years without ever knowing it's Linden Labs. Hell, it took me more than forty years to learn I was misspelling the name of a street less than half a mile from my RL house, because it's an unusual spelling of a common name. And I place the blame for this Lab/Labs fiasco squarely on the shoulders of LL. What were they thinking? I have offered the correction to new people, usually in the approximate form of "LL stands for Linden Lab, not Labs. For some reason we get our undies in a bundle over that common mistake."

I do agree that the regulars are generally quite welcoming. The current forum is the most pleasant I've seen in eight years here. We are pretty good at reading new posters and even pretty good at ignoring the asshats. We're not perfect, and I've shot my mouth off when it would have been best to keep it shut.

Yet, this is not the best behaved forum I visit. Those would be the highly technical ones where everyone is too busy geeking out to get personal. But, even when they do get personal, it's almost always with heartfelt words of support. For all the mutual respect we offer each other over our shared interest in SL, we still can't beat the people who get excited over Fast Fourier Transforms or MOSFET gate threshold voltage for being downright civil. And some of those forums are not moderated!

Any complaint about forum negativity is likely to drag on, as it tickles sensitivities on both sides of the argument. It's difficult to win an argument over who's nicer. ;-).

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Madelaine McMasters
Ha, I said Linden Labs where I mean't Linden Lab. See!!!

[Luna Bliss]

10 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

As I say in this forum often, much drama could be avoided if people read the forum guidelines  before posting.

lol I have yet to read them….I guess I should do that!

I was banned for a day from the forum because I called a forum member by the original name they posted with instead of their new name they decided to post as. It felt deceptive to me, like they were trying to trick us by using this new name.

[Luna Bliss]

15 hours ago, Roxy Couturier said:

21 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

Reading this definition, perhaps you need a better word to convey your message than macho.

Luna calls it that to cast a negative spin on what is simply aggressive behaviors. Which is hilarious, since one of her modus operandi is to hammer away in a fairly aggressive manner and never ever backing down. Even, and especially, if there is a preponderance of evidence and argument that her position is incorrect or hurtful.

All behaviors that one equates to a puffed up male ego or, dare I say, "macho".

Roxy, why would I back down and agree to something that doesn't feel true to me? While I learn in any forum I participate in, and am open to changing my opinion if I feel I'm wrong, the participants are but one group (usually no more than 30 or so regulars) that I receive input from in my life. I'm always open to learning from them, but I don't take their word as gospel. It's not 'macho' to continue to assert what I believe is true, even if I asserted an opinion that differed from the 30 or so regular forum members.

I've noticed that you are one of the people (from that other forum) who really gets into ganging up on others. I noticed at that time that whenever someone was being scapegoated, there you were! I would ask myself why this behavior brings such satisfaction if I found myself engaging in it frequently. Of course I would not engage in it, because I recognize what an abuse of power it is -- many people ganging up on one person to flame them is always unfair.

[Luna Bliss]

Since I'm the one who brought up the term 'patriachy', and some (Callum & Drake) are now interpreting it in a way I did not mean, I feel a need to clarify what I meant. To say our society is a patriarchal one, and that the patriarchy influences our behavior in this forum, does NOT mean that I think the forum members are organizing along patriarchal lines of power with males having more dominance. I am instead trying to convey that we have been socialized as children to fit into our overarching social structure (patriarchy), and this creates our psychological makeup, and hence can affect our behavior on the forum.

For example, males are typically socialized in our culture to be strong, independent, and not to need anything from others -- much moreso than women. Often males have trouble asking for help, and are less likely to go to the doctor when health problems arise (all verifiable through scientific research). More colloquially, it's a common joke about males being resistent to ask for directions (I can verify the last one personally, as I wandered around Canyon Lands in the US with my ex-husband far too long due to it). I'm not sure if the 'asking for directions' stereotype has been proven by scientific research, but it is a stereotype that persists about most males and could be true.

For women, they are raised to be nurturing and emotionally attentive and generally giving -- moreso than men are. There have been tests that verify a woman is seen more negatively if she goes against the expectation that she be nurturing. For example, if a woman demonstrates strengh of charactor or assertiveness, sometimes with anger displayed, she is labeled a "*****"  (starts with 'b'),or as "hysterical". In the same situation the man is just seen as assertive or justifiably angry.

So we are trained or socialized as children to fit into our overarching social structure (patriarchy), and this creates our psychological makeup, and hence can affect our behavior on the forum.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Luna Bliss

[Roxy Couturier]

9 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

 I do not approve of that kind correction, but getting beat on for it is not for being new to the forum, but calling LL the wrong name. My guess is that most people overlook that mistake in a new poster, it’s those that have been here 10 years that They feel entitled to correct.

Zero may be a hyperbole, but not by much. What  I have observed is that regulars here are quite welcoming to well mannered new people. 

Jumping off this post to add to it, Pamela. (And I'm using 'you' in a general sense.)

Correcting someone is not 'piling on'. Adding something like 'Hey it's Linden Lab, not Linden Labs." is informative, not an attack. Although, making that the only sentence in your post replying to their post is kinda trashy.

Disagreeing with someone is not an 'attack'. It's an open board with many opinions, not everyone is going to agree with you. If you only want replies that agree with your position, start a blog.

People post here from all over the world, but, except for the language specific forums, the default language is English. If English isn't a posters strong suite, patience is needed from both sides of the conversation.

If a post is disjointed, ask them to clarify their points. Keep in mind that there are those who have English as a second language (or third or fourth) get their hackles up when someone suggests they aren't super-awesome communicating in English.

Remember that it's a textual medium. Readers of your post aren't hearing the vocal inflection in your head unless you emphasize. Rya, I'm going to use your soup nazi reference as an example. No disparagement is implied.

On 9/28/2018 at 4:05 AM, Rya Nitely said:

No warm blanket for you, NEXT ?

I've seen that Seinfeld episode and know it well. Until you posted the follow up, I didn't realize that that was what you were referring to. Honestly, it sounded as if you were being dismissive. The angry/frowny face sort of supports that. Another way to type that out might be something like:

"No warm blanket for YOU!!" or "No soup warm blanket for YOU!" with a smiley to indicate you were joking. It's mostly the same words, but as you read it, can you hear the emphasis with your inner voice? It's a way to add depth and texture (see what I did there?) to your posts.

[Madelaine McMasters]

47 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

lol I have yet to read them….I guess I should do that!

Yes you should!!!

RTFM didn't enter the world's lexicon for no reason. I didn't read the ToS, Community Standards, and Community Participation Guidelines until looooooong after I joined the forums and saw others being pulled over for breaking the law. As it turns out, most of the laws are common sense and I was in little danger of breaking them. I think you're similarly safe.

I can't look down on someone for not doing what I'm not doing, unless they show no remorse when corrected. That's when they become tempting targets and I start biting my lip.

[Madelaine McMasters]

10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So we are trained or socialized as children to fit into our overarching social structure (patriarchy), and this creates our psychological makeup, and hence can affect our behavior on the forum.

Yep, though I was raised in a makeriarchy (you are what you make) and have little patience for other social structures.

[Roxy Couturier]

34 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Roxy, why would I back down and agree to something that doesn't feel true to me? While I learn in any forum I participate in, and am open to changing my opinion if I feel I'm wrong, the participants are but one group (usually no more than 30 or so regulars) that I receive input from in my life. I'm always open to learning from them, but I don't take their word as gospel. It's not 'macho' to continue to assert what I believe is true, even if I asserted an opinion that differed from the 30 or so regular forum members.

No one asked you to change your opinion. They were asking to just simply stop. When your assertions are actively hurting people it's time to stop. But you don't. Like all dudes, you keep hammering away until you have the last word, spam stupid pictures to disrupt or stalk members until they're driven off the board. But hey who cares about the wreckage you leave behind huh? As long as you're right.

oh, unless it all a 'social experiment' amirite?

52 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've noticed that you are one of the people (from that other forum) who really gets into ganging up on others. I noticed at that time that whenever someone was being scapegoated, there you were! I would ask myself why this behavior brings such satisfaction if I found myself engaging in it frequently. Of course I would not engage in it, because I recognize what an abuse of power it is -- many people ganging up on one person to flame them is always unfair.

Do you really want to delve into SLU histories? okay then..

So, why did you enjoy taunting a real life Native American with her self-revealed social status. Her History. Or. better yet, white-splainin her religion to her?

How about being asked, begged even, to stop equating someone getting their fee-fees hurt on a FORUM to actual real life rape? From actual RL survivors of rape.

Oh and hey, how about stalking someone for two years, showing up right after they did in thread, after thread, after thread, not to add to whatever was being discussed, but to specifically target them?

Congratulations you macho, macho man. You aren't a very good human being. Those are the best words I have for you. The rest are unprintable on this forum.

[Rya Nitely]

 

30 minutes ago, Roxy Couturier said:

No warm blanket for YOU!!" or "No soup warm blanket for YOU!" with a smiley to indicate you were joking. It's mostly the same words, but as you read it, can you hear the emphasis with your inner voice? It's a way to add depth and texture (see what I did there?) to your posts.

Yes, I have noticed that jokes are often taken seriously. But It sort of takes away the humour if you need to explain that it's a joke. Like the angry face, well it wouldn't be the soup nazi with a smiley face. And Ethan did keep insisting he didn't want a warm blanket, and he was being mean to me first with my other attempt at a joke about Dakota saying ' And we are done' like she did in the other forum where people started to argue, and that was my other failed attempt at joking, because he took it so seriously and you did too. But anyway I'll try not to joke anymore ?