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7 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

We miss you in Secondlife, Med. Hope you are happy. Hope you are well. :)

Aw.

It's useful that Sansar shows the number of draw calls per frame. And it's amazing how low it is. Only about 1000 for that million prim scene. The SL viewer's statistics bar doesn't show the count of draw calls, although it shows the number of triangles. SL has a low triangle/draw call ratio, according to the Culling note. About 70, compared to about 1000 or more for that Sansar scene. That's why he's getting 100FPS in Sansar. SL's statistics bar should show the number of draw calls, as a first step to trying to get it down.

Very roughly, draw calls eat up CPU time and triangles eat up GPU time. This is why SL often runs out of CPU time before GPU time.

(Tech note: SL was designed when GPUs were less powerful relative to CPUs, and getting the draw count down wasn't so critical. GPUS have gotten much more powerful in the last 10 years. Individual CPU cores, not so much. I wonder what it would do for SL performance if the viewer rendered small or distant stationary objects by copying their reduced texture into one mega texture, adjusting their UVs to match, doing all their vertex transformations once so they're in world coordinates, and then rendering all that as one draw call. That's a common game technique. Maybe do this per parcel, so a parcel summary gets created when one comes into view and is released when you leave the area. Each parcel's stationary objects could be drawn with one draw call.)

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Here is my toolbar of the first experience I finished.  I don't really understand the techie part of it all but Medhue's experience (shown) takes me a bit under two minutes to load (this is a good rate in Sansar).  

Ranch Life (built somewhat differently than the norm for Sansar) takes me 11 seconds with the average time of people reporting in at 15 seconds (different connections speeds of course - mine is 20mbps).

image.thumb.png.f6344b9ce233edb0483b22d150294404.png 

In general larger textures are used than in SL (for those of us paying attention to the textures of course) and normal  maps are a big thing (used in mine) as well as roughness and metalness (PRB).   I pretty much negated the roughness and metalness (think "specular" although it isn't that but more like a color ramp?) as   I wanted dreamy and nostalgic here. My next build is closer looking to the Sansar norm but still without  roughness and metalness except for some byte sized grayscales. 

 

2086298545_RanchLifeAtlaswithdarkborder.thumb.jpg.37468e33f85a78959e39471f827f8c53.jpg

923731276_clothesline.thumb.jpg.902755d3c73535c1ab7832dac9ba8126.jpg

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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Chic, I suggest trying to get Medhue to script a nice tumbleweed blowin' through there... ;0

 

tumbleweed.jpg

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48 minutes ago, animats said:

Can you go to those mountains, or is that a flat backdrop?

I believe that is a "skybox" (which has nothing to do with what we call a skybox in SL). It is a long graphics file that goes on a backdrop that encompasses your build (if you so choose so but that is the norm).

https://help.sansar.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000261067-Working-with-skyboxes

 

The items in the environment take on some of the characteristics of the backdrop (colors and such) if you "bake" them into the scene. Yes, many differences :D.   So for example, this is what I am working on now which is going to be a demo area (there are no inworld sales in Sansar).  This is in EDIT view, not "visitor" view (my term).

 

image.thumb.png.c5cd7ae511f09c107e025152f9454ead.png

 So here the platform has not been baked with Global Illumination.  But the center display areas have been. It takes a VERY LONG TIME to bake so it's a "gee I need to go make dinner and do the dishes" thing.  I baked those pieces before adding the platform. 

You can see the pink cast on the walls but not the platform.

image.thumb.png.daf48b0cb4d952963f3c751bf346c53c.png

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2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Chic, I suggest trying to get Medhue to script a nice tumbleweed blowin' through there

That's such a pretty picture. I do have some tumbleweeds somewhere but I finished that build at the end of August and I am leaving it in its "first build" status for posterity :D. Also EVERYTHING in the build is mine (and actually all the builds I am working on) and I plan to keep it that way LOL.    

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2 hours ago, animats said:

Can you go to those mountains, or is that a flat backdrop?

If you're asking about Scurry Waters .. yes, you can walk on those mountains. It does have a skybox, as all experiences in Sansar have one, but the mountains in the distance are mesh and not part of the skybox. It's a really fun experience. You should go visit!

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23 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

If you're asking about Scurry Waters .. yes, you can walk on those mountains. It does have a skybox, as all experiences in Sansar have one, but the mountains in the distance are mesh and not part of the skybox. It's a really fun experience. You should go visit!

Actually I was talking about Luna's mountains, not Medhue's :D.   And you CAN make an experience (scene) without a skybox. I have been to some. They can be completely "inside" but yes, MOST have the sky because they are SO COOL.  

 

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13 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Actually I was talking about Luna's mountains, not Medhue's :D.   And you CAN make an experience (scene) without a skybox. I have been to some. They can be completely "inside" but yes, MOST have the sky because they are SO COOL.  

 

What I meant is that every experience has a skybox. It's there whether it is visible or not. It's part of the scene elements. You don't have an option to not have one.

I wasn't sure if Animats was asking about Medhue's experience or Luna's, that's why I said if you're asking about Scurry Waters.

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5 hours ago, animats said:

Aw.

It's useful that Sansar shows the number of draw calls per frame. And it's amazing how low it is. Only about 1000 for that million prim scene. The SL viewer's statistics bar doesn't show the count of draw calls, although it shows the number of triangles. SL has a low triangle/draw call ratio, according to the Culling note. About 70, compared to about 1000 or more for that Sansar scene. That's why he's getting 100FPS in Sansar. SL's statistics bar should show the number of draw calls, as a first step to trying to get it down.

Very roughly, draw calls eat up CPU time and triangles eat up GPU time. This is why SL often runs out of CPU time before GPU time.

(Tech note: SL was designed when GPUs were less powerful relative to CPUs, and getting the draw count down wasn't so critical. GPUS have gotten much more powerful in the last 10 years. Individual CPU cores, not so much. I wonder what it would do for SL performance if the viewer rendered small or distant stationary objects by copying their reduced texture into one mega texture, adjusting their UVs to match, doing all their vertex transformations once so they're in world coordinates, and then rendering all that as one draw call. That's a common game technique. Maybe do this per parcel, so a parcel summary gets created when one comes into view and is released when you leave the area. Each parcel's stationary objects could be drawn with one draw call.)

SL stats are available to you in the viewer, in some ways there is more info available than Medhue showed in Sansar. The really nice thing in Sansar is the integration into the viewer, I'd love to be able to show the mesh offenders in a heat map in SL, I have talked about that in the past, but I hold back a little on that because mesh density is one part of a much large equation and showing people a heat map of dense triangles but failing to show the impact of the excessively hi-res textures may not be sending the right message.

We do have a lot of the same capabilities (wireframe for example) but there is no concept of the sensitivity control (a really nice addition) and the many overlays are hidden away in the render metadata controls. Render Metadata is a great source of information, but it is very much a debug tool and most of those views have a significant performance hit. The physics view that I added into the Firestorm edit tools is an example where I have brought the graphics overlay out of that menu and specialised it for builders. 

Here is an example of the onscreen stats (developer->Show Info->Render Info)

4f313bc891c8401fed04d94d4beec1c6.png

I should note that the culling note was written in 2008 when the pipeline was quite different;  it is sad to read though, when you see there, a decade ago, a recognition of the problem that we have in terms of content versus performance. While the limitations it refers to have shifted and changed the problem of performance and resource usage being a race to the bottom has not. Whether the limitations of that page are out of date or not it is fair to say that the pipeline is quite old, is essentially single threaded and has a lot of baggage it hauls around, not least of which is legacy hardware support with a low minimum bar for a user device, but also legacy content support and all kinds of cruftiness that has accreted over the years.

Sansar is of course written to run at 100FPS to allow the head bucket users to get a non-vomit inducing experience of 50fps per eye. The minimum bar for a viable Sansar machine is a lot higher than SL of course. What would be more interesting would be to see a scene as dynamic as SL with as many avatars as an SL scene. We'd hope it would still whip SL in terms of framerates but it would be a nice comparison to see versus a mostly static scene and one that was using well mostly well-made mesh that we saw in the video. 

Lovely to see how much the avatars in Sansar have improved. Thanks Medhue, for the informative video.

 

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Thanks for all the nice comments, especially about Scurry Waters. 

Please do not compare the numbers you see there to other Sansar builds, well except maybe Chic's lol, but her's is smaller, cause Bagnaria and I are seriously nutso about efficiency. We literally almost had to make EVERY single item in the experience, to keep numbers low enough. Today, we are putting in new water using a new waterlike shader. It should further cut about 1 millin triangles from Scurry Waters, as the water we were using was costly, but the best out there at the time. SW is around half a kilometer square. So, it is not small. At any given time tho, there could be as many as 500 animated things around you, or as few as 200. What is possible in Sansar is pretty impressive. 

2cc311520bf7454ec58aa72b92c61a26.gif

Edited by Medhue Simoni
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And yes, that water, on top of using the new water shader, is also bone animated to move up and down. This is only an early test version for us.

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15 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

We miss you in Secondlife, Med. Hope you are happy. Hope you are well. :)

Ah, how nice! Oh, I'm happy. Very exciting times! Bagnaria and I are a very good match. I'm still working for Zooby's. Animesh Cat coming. Zooby's Baby in the final stages, thank god! I'm not going anywhere soon.

Things in SL could not be better. I can't wait to see what everyone makes.

 

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3 hours ago, Medhue Simoni said:

Please do not compare the numbers you see there to other Sansar builds, well except maybe Chic's lol,

:D.  

I went over to your place tonight to show a RL friend here and AMAZINGLY the cache thing worked for me "finally" and I got in lickety split which was a joy. Not sure why my cache thing hadn't been working for over a month. Still Scurry Waters initial download time was very good for Sansar and definitely plenty going on there.  Water looks very good.  I haven't played with that new option yet. 

Realistically as you said in your video the diagnostics are only guides. They are nice to have but as always testing give us the real answers. Still, if we have an idea of what the numbers "should  be" for where we want our downloads and framerates to be, that is a big help. 

And for the record, absolutely EVERYTHING in Ranch Life was made by me (well not the wind sound -- but the voiceover was :D) So close to everything. I even only used a "simple script" for the sound that is in what we would equate as the Library in SL.  I left the doors off and being "repaired" or open as I don't like doors all that much anyway and in any world.  It was actually fun finding workarounds. 

 I went in with the idea that if I couldn't make it, it wouldn't be there and that is what I have been doing on the next builds also. It does lend some cohesiveness that you don't get when you are mixing and matching things from other creators. AND it is easy to see with older Sansar builds that there were greater limitations in the beginning. You have an organic world that changes and grows over time. Mine are mostly going to be capsules in time sort of things. I don't plan to fiddle once they are done. 

Updates are fun as we get new toys and bug fixes. Of course there are often new bugs to deal with but that is just part of the package. 

I especially love your little creatures but that is no surprise!   

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18 hours ago, animats said:

Can you go to those mountains, or is that a flat backdrop?

I'd love to walk up those mountains. This is a flat backdrop created by someone else @ Renderosity

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18 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

That's such a pretty picture.

I had tumbleweeds on the mind as I saw your new build, and so imagined them gently blowing through the scene. I've been reading a Rachel Carson book named Silent Spring, where she describes how the beautiful sagebrush of the Southwest was eradicated on a huge swath of land. In making way for grazing cows it was poisoned and many animals either died from the toxic effects or from the elimination of their food source, and then the animals that relied on the poisoned animals died, creating an entire ecosystem calamity. Yet another example of not paying attention to the whole, to the big picture, when taking action for profit.
Anyway, yes it's a lovely picture, created by someone at Renderosity in Bryce. Wouldn't it be wonderful to actually walk around in that scene, and even up on the mountains as Animats would like. If I had the time I'd attempt to create the Tumbleweed Bliss experience in Sansar.
I do love the Southwest with it's empty spaces mixed with towering rock formations...your new scene is lovely and the skyscrapers remind me of Southwestern rock monuments.

Edited by Luna Bliss
typo

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