Mesh designers: Who will update to BoM for free?

[Blush Bravin]

2 hours ago, Conifer Dada said:

Bake on Mesh will probably be good for clothes that are meant to be skin-tight though, like leggings or swimsuits. 

I"d still prefer the clothing layer for any type of clothing since I don't like things that ride up into my butt crack or that completely forms to the skin between the breasts. So, having a clothing onion layer is a must. I hope the add an onion layer as an attachment that takes appliers idea is adopted.

[Marianne Little]

30 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I"d still prefer the clothing layer for any type of clothing since I don't like things that ride up into my butt crack or that completely forms to the skin between the breasts. So, having a clothing onion layer is a must. I hope the add an onion layer as an attachment that takes appliers idea is adopted.

I am "afraid" for the "abuse" from the ones who will point at "onion avatars" as the Source of all Evil in SL.

Not that I mean the abowe literally, but I am too old for this *****. I have been through

- Scripts are evil, delete all items you can't take scripts out of. Use script counters religiously.

- High ARC is evil. Check your outfits. Others take pictures of avatars with high ARC for shaming.

- Flexi is evil. Use mesh.

- Too big textures in your clothes makes SL die slowly. No one need so big textures in bootlaces.

- Jelly avatars. New version of ARC.

- You have your LOD factor set to 4? Shame on you. You allow lazy designers to upload bad mesh.

So the next target is Onion avatars: What, you still use an onion layer? Etc, etc. That's why I hope there will be BoM soon, I want to give an avatar a makeover, but will not buy an head that's maybe not updated.

 

[Magnek Fang]

I already have a body which has it's tattoo layer as a separate thing.

Also, while BoM will work for some clothes, I think that a lot of people will want materials, so the clothing layer will prolly stay.

[Blush Bravin]

2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I am "afraid" for the "abuse" from the ones who will point at "onion avatars" as the Source of all Evil in SL.

Not that I mean the abowe literally, but I am too old for this *****. I have been through

- Scripts are evil, delete all items you can't take scripts out of. Use script counters religiously.

- High ARC is evil. Check your outfits. Others take pictures of avatars with high ARC for shaming.

- Flexi is evil. Use mesh.

- Too big textures in your clothes makes SL die slowly. No one need so big textures in bootlaces.

- Jelly avatars. New version of ARC.

- You have your LOD factor set to 4? Shame on you. You allow lazy designers to upload bad mesh.

So the next target is Onion avatars: What, you still use an onion layer? Etc, etc. That's why I hope there will be BoM soon, I want to give an avatar a makeover, but will not buy an head that's maybe not updated.

 

There's truth in all those points. I don't agree with shaming people but I think everyone has a responsibility to not abuse the system just because they can. The way we use resources affects everyone not just ourselves.

And that said, that's why I'm really happy with the idea of BoM and not needing to use onion layer mesh bodies. But, and it's a huge BUT, that doesn't mean there won't be those who need those onion layers. It really depends if you like applier/system clothing or not. Personally, and I make appliers (and used to make system and will most likely go back to making system layers once BoM goes live) I don't see the need to be wearing 3 onion layers when I'm only using one. I also don't like to be wearing hair that uses a styling hud to hide lots of mesh just because it's novel to be able to switch hairstyles on the fly. I'd rather just take one style off and put another one on. I'm not a fan of jewelry that uses huds to hide the parts you don't want to be seen (though I caved to pressure and now include hiding huds with my rings  ). I'm just not a fan of any kind of invisible mesh being worn by avatars.

We talk about how we hate lag, but until we take responsibility for our part in creating that lag, I don't see much change happening.

[Alyona Su]

On 9/2/2018 at 4:56 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

If clothes go back to wrapping us skin tight like before,then that's going to suck..In my eyes that is a step backwards and just going to be some performance fix..

The best thing about mesh has been that it took away the skin tight clothes that went up the cracks of our butts and wrapped our breasts and instead gave things depth..Like jackets and jeans and t-shirts that fit like they should rather than looking all two dimensional..

I'm gonna have to see if there is any videos on it on you tube and also do what you suggested and check out the beta..

9

Caution: You are now experiencing a knee-jerk, unjustified reaction.

Some parts of an outfit are skin-tight and other parts are not. So the skin-tight parts are worn and presented through the BoM feature, while (get this: *at the same time*) mesh or prim attachments will fill-out the rest. Imagine: no more (or greatly reduced instances of) clipping, a.k.a. "skin peeking through clothing" and not having to rely on alpha layers so much.

5 hours ago, Conifer Dada said:

Bake on Mesh will probably be good for clothes that are meant to be skin-tight though, like leggings or swimsuits.

Ditto.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Alyona Su

[Fionalein]

5 hours ago, Conifer Dada said:

Bake on Mesh will probably be good for clothes that are meant to be skin-tight though, like leggings or swimsuits. 

... I begin to wonder how many BOM enthusiats are into that cameltoe fetish thingie...

[Marianne Little]

14 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

There's truth in all those points. I don't agree with shaming people but I think everyone has a responsibility to not abuse the system just because they can. The way we use resources affects everyone not just ourselves.

And that said, that's why I'm really happy with the idea of BoM and not needing to use onion layer mesh bodies. But, and it's a huge BUT, that doesn't mean there won't be those who need those onion layers. It really depends if you like applier/system clothing or not. Personally, and I make appliers (and used to make system and will most likely go back to making system layers once BoM goes live) I don't see the need to be wearing 3 onion layers when I'm only using one. I also don't like to be wearing hair that uses a styling hud to hide lots of mesh just because it's novel to be able to switch hairstyles on the fly. I'd rather just take one style off and put another one on. I'm not a fan of jewelry that uses huds to hide the parts you don't want to be seen (though I caved to pressure and now include hiding huds with my rings  ). I'm just not a fan of any kind of invisible mesh being worn by avatars.

We talk about how we hate lag, but until we take responsibility for our part in creating that lag, I don't see much change happening.

And if a designer told me that yes, buy my head and I will update it to BoM when it is rolled out - and you get the update free -

I would buy it. I would TOTALLY buy it is the designer said: I will also add a lighter version of the head with only one onion layer for your appliers.

What I am saying is that since no one announced it, I sit on my money and don't buy any new heads. In just a few months BoM can be here, and I wish designers was prepared for it.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Marianne Little

[Light Vortex]

On 9/2/2018 at 3:32 PM, Marianne Little said:

Who has said they will update previous releases to BoM when it's introduced?

I think we can use the Omega layer on all who's Omega compatible, but I would like to see the onion layers gone - or reduced.

I have only one alt with no-Bento head and I will buy her a Bento head. But I will not support a designer who refuse to update their products.

Hello, introducing myself, I've been creating mesh content for the grid ever since I joined SL. I recently started selling an all new complete Bento male avatar base (head and body, all in one) called " Neo Avatar " under my brand, META. The avatar uses standard SL UVs, crossing over to BoM compatibility is only natural. ARC of current build of the avatar is around mere 5K, 5362 to be precise,  but it can be much lower once I get rid of the onion layers and use BoM for texturing.  As mentioned in the MP description for my product, I intend to release BoM version of Neo as a separate product even if all existing customers of the current version will receive the update for free. The new version powered by BoM will be uni-layered, single mesh, seamless avatar that can take any standard system layer. I don't expect the market to instantly change it's course so both appliers compatible version and BoM version will be available as different products, at least until the market adapt to new standards.

[Fionalein]

2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

In just a few months BoM can be here, and I wish designers was prepared for it.

No need to prepare... It is easily done. All you need is a single button on the HUD: "apply BOM to body". If you do not want to go the omega route a 3rd party direct BOM to Maitreya HUD is even now already out and it is free...

I'm sure you will see BOM to WHATEVERBRANDYOUAREUSING HUDs will pop up like weed once it is officially released...

[Marianne Little]

13 hours ago, Fionalein said:

No need to prepare... It is easily done. All you need is a single button on the HUD: "apply BOM to body". If you do not want to go the omega route a 3rd party direct BOM to Maitreya HUD is even now already out and it is free...

I'm sure you will see BOM to WHATEVERBRANDYOUAREUSING HUDs will pop up like weed once it is officially released...

I feel that you purposefully read me like I am ignorant. Maybe it's my bad English, maybe not.

I will not pay 5k for a head, to read about how bad it is with all the onion layers, as soon as BoM is rolled out.

I can ignore the complaints and use my 5k heads, or give in and buy a head with one or no layers. The latter meaning I wasted 5k on two months of use of the head.

Keyword here is complaints from people using head without layers, against people who use heads with many layers.

For me BoM update also means a head with few or zero layers. Is that clear now?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited to add: I am sorry that I was overreacting. There was no need to snap at you.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Marianne Little

[Drake1 Nightfire]

19 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Caution: You are now experiencing a knee-jerk, unjustified reaction.

Some parts of an outfit are skin-tight and other parts are not. So the skin-tight parts are worn and presented through the BoM feature, while (get this: *at the same time*) mesh or prim attachments will fill-out the rest. Imagine: no more (or greatly reduced instances of) clipping, a.k.a. "skin peeking through clothing" and not having to rely on alpha layers so much.

Ditto.

So, back to flexi prim skirts and glitch pants, only in mesh now? This is a step forward?

19 hours ago, Fionalein said:

... I begin to wonder how many BOM enthusiats are into that cameltoe fetish thingie...

I was thinking the exact same thing. Seeing as some female bodies come... very sculpted down there.. This could be very interesting to watch roll out. More like actual painted clothing than skin tight. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

I did a few tests to see what my ARC was with various bodies i own.. 

Slink with a CAtwa Victor head came in at 22372

Niramyth with Catwa Victor head came in at 15476 (i dont care for the Enzo head..)

And Niramyth Body with Rainworkx add on came in at 49577.. 

Now, none of these have.. parts nor clothing, yet they are not outrageous ARCs, well under the 120K that LL sets as the start of Jelly dolls. Will they really be that much lower without the "onion" layers? Will it make THAT much of a difference? 

[Alyona Su]

4 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Will they really be that much lower without the "onion" layers? Will it make THAT much of a difference? 

I don't believe this is the primary reason for BoM idea, more of an 'icing on the cake'; it seems more about the ability to use pre-mesh outfits and faster texture rezzing.

[Blush Bravin]

6 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

And if a designer told me that yes, buy my head and I will update it to BoM when it is rolled out - and you get the update free -

I would buy it. I would TOTALLY buy it is the designer said: I will also add a lighter version of the head with only one onion layer for your appliers.

What I am saying is that since no one announced it, I sit on my money and don't buy any new heads. In just a few months BoM can be here, and I wish designers was prepared for it.

Oh yeah, I totally get what you are saying. I'm not buying new heads either (mostly because the last one I bought of many, is exactly what I wanted in a mesh head). I am hoping that the bento heads will get updates to BoM. It would be great if the updates were free, but I'm also willing to pay for the update because creators should be compensated for the time they spend updating IMO.

[Blush Bravin]

25 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I don't believe this is the primary reason for BoM idea, more of an 'icing on the cake'; it seems more about the ability to use pre-mesh outfits and faster texture rezzing.

I think reducing complexity of the mesh avatars is a HUGE part of why they are doing this. It may not be biggest reason but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not right up there at the top.

[Theresa Tennyson]

32 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I did a few tests to see what my ARC was with various bodies i own.. 

Slink with a CAtwa Victor head came in at 22372

Niramyth with Catwa Victor head came in at 15476 (i dont care for the Enzo head..)

And Niramyth Body with Rainworkx add on came in at 49577.. 

Now, none of these have.. parts nor clothing, yet they are not outrageous ARCs, well under the 120K that LL sets as the start of Jelly dolls. Will they really be that much lower without the "onion" layers? Will it make THAT much of a difference? 

 

I did tests and with a single avatar every onion layer turned on was about a 10% hit to framerate. ARC isn't designed to get that specific on performance.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Theresa Tennyson

[Tarani Tempest]

28 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I don't believe this is the primary reason for BoM idea, more of an 'icing on the cake'; it seems more about the ability to use pre-mesh outfits and faster texture rezzing.

As well as, being able to layer textures that use transparencies.  Currently, layering them using the 'onions' of a mesh body results in the dreaded alpha 'glitching' . 

 

34 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Now, none of these have.. parts nor clothing, yet they are not outrageous ARCs, well under the 120K that LL sets as the start of Jelly dolls. Will they really be that much lower without the "onion" layers? Will it make THAT much of a difference? 

 

 

The  onion layers can have applier textures added to them, that is where the real difference comes in. More textures (1 body, 3 onion layers) , larger textures...more to rez.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Tarani Tempest

[Fionalein]

10 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I did tests and with a single avatar every onion layer turned on was about a 10% hit to framerate. ARC isn't designed to get that specific on performance.

Silly question, you were nude, right? If yes try repeating it with mesh cloth that contain several more layers... (you know, the fancy ones that will allow you to pick different seams, laces etc by HUD, those the high fashionistas wear at those laggy events, with 4 textures per piece minimum)

I really doubt the performance boost will be as high as expected in places that are not nude beaches...

Edited September 7, 2018 by Fionalein

[Drake1 Nightfire]

20 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I did tests and with a single avatar every onion layer turned on was about a 10% hit to framerate. ARC isn't designed to get that specific on performance.

How did you turn off the layers? My mesh bodies arent mod. So how would you know what each layer counts?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

12 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Silly question, you were nude, right? If yes try repeating it with mesh cloth that contain several more layers... (you know, the fancy ones that will allow you to pick different seams, laces etc by HUD, those the high fashionistas wear at those laggy events, with 4 textures per piece minimum)

I really doubt the performance boost will be as high as expected in places that are not nude beaches...

Those are just faces, not layered mesh.. It all depends on how well they are made.. I have seen some that were 2 LI.. 

[Alyona Su]

25 minutes ago, Tarani Tempest said:

As well as, being able to layer textures that use transparencies.  Currently, layering them using the 'onions' of a mesh body results in the dreaded alpha 'glitching' . 

OMG This. I have a tattoo on layer 1, then a "wet skin" on layer 2, and a "Dirt" on layer 3. CANNOT use any two layers at the same time. ? This is one reason why I am so looking forward to this, even if only to use it for this reason.  As for reason priorities for the feature: I really don't care. I just know it's a win-win for everyone. For those who think it's a waste of time or a "step backward" then don't use it. That's what choice is all about, right? So ~choose~ not to use it. LOL

[Theresa Tennyson]

37 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

How did you turn off the layers? My mesh bodies arent mod. So how would you know what each layer counts?

I turned them on and off with the HUD and then watched the framerate in a controlled situation. It's all set down in the "Bakes on Mesh Feedback" thread.

[Theresa Tennyson]

50 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Silly question, you were nude, right? If yes try repeating it with mesh cloth that contain several more layers... (you know, the fancy ones that will allow you to pick different seams, laces etc by HUD, those the high fashionistas wear at those laggy events, with 4 textures per piece minimum)

I really doubt the performance boost will be as high as expected in places that are not nude beaches...

Theresa Tennyson sighs.

I did tests nude and with mesh clothing. Look in the Bakes on Mesh feedback thread. I know you've read that thread because you complain and snark there frequently. All spelled out there. Page 21.

 

[Nalates Urriah]

On 9/2/2018 at 4:24 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

Something has me curious with bakes on mesh..

Are clothes going to fit like mesh or are they going to go back to wrapping us skin tight like before?

There seems to be some confusion in the answers. I think it comes from Applier vs Mesh clothes.

As it is now Appliers place textures on layers of the onion skin bodies. The result is a 'clothes' layer makes stockings and t-shirts cover the body bridging toes and cleavage rather than filling in the gaps between toes and cleavage as if painted on. How this will be handled with BoM and no-onion skin layers is speculation. We don't know what designers will build. If the designer chooses to give up covering for paint... I probably won't buy that body. I suspect others feel the same. So, there is market pressure and that works in the free market as customers vote with their dollars.

However, Applier underwear layer stuff is pretty much painted on in all cases. So, that layer could go away and underwear and skin could be composited with BoM. The same with the tats layer.

The result is we may go from 4 or 5 layers of onion skin to just a couple and still have mesh bodies that look very much like we have now.

When we get to mesh clothes we are not dealing with onion skins. These are a layer over the body. BoM does not change that. So, there isn't much room for BoM to help. As I understand BoM, we could use it with attached clothes, but that would not change the shape of the clothes, just the texture. They would still bridge cleavage or be loose fitting.

BoM is an extension of a baking service we have now. The current and future service takes a number of textures targeted at various layers and bakes them into a single composite texture for use on a single mesh layer. So, skin, tats, underwear, and clothes layers all bake to a single image and layer. The current service can only apply the texture to the classic avatar. With BoM that changes. We can target mesh other than the classic body. So, bodies and clothes can still be whatever we want post-BoM. That also means we can still use our existing bodies and Appliers without change. BoM does not force you or the designer to use it. It just opens up possibilities.

There is discussion about BoM being extended to all mesh in SL. I doubt that will happen. So, the initial BoM will be limited to avatars and their attachments and no materials. However, Appliers could still provide materials, but that 'materials thing' is a bit of a confused mesh for now.

[Marianne Little]

11 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, back to flexi prim skirts and glitch pants, only in mesh now? This is a step forward?

I was thinking the exact same thing. Seeing as some female bodies come... very sculpted down there.. This could be very interesting to watch roll out. More like actual painted clothing than skin tight. 

I am going back to flexi with a mesh top and a flexi skirt with applier for "glitch pants" plus a mesh panel between the legs.

Wonderful to dance in. Just compare with the lady in a white dress behind there. Crosspost from another thread.

Good work is good work, no matter what materials used. I am higher in ARC yes. 122 000 (forgot the exact number). It is still not terribly high.

Will there be fleximesh?