My thoughts on mainland

[Solar Legion]

And just like clockwork... 

[Klytyna]

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Could you explain what you mean a bit more in detail?

I do not approve of the rather aggressive tone in animat's post but he what he actually says is: if you want to live in a neighborhood where you can socialize with people around you, you find yourself a home in a place where there's a chance you'll get some neighbors. If you don't want that, you find yourself a home in a place where there's no risk of being disturbed by other people.

I think it's safe to say that to the vast majority of people in the world, that makes perfect sense. It doesn't to a Second Life user, I know that. I've been here long enough to realize that fact and accept it. But I have to admit I never understood why.

Oh Chin... Really? You're smarter than this... Try hard...

Timezones...

You move into a house at number 5 Madlander St.,  and look forward to socialising with your neighbours, but...

The couple who live at number 3 are 12 hours ahead of your timezone, the guy at number 7 is 8 hours behind you and speaks a language you don't understand, the woman at number 2 IS in your timezone, but hates your guts because your politics are not the same as hers,  number 4 is currently empty, and number 6 is inhabited by the Neighbourhood Snitch Street Gestapo, who refuses to accept your "intrusion" int "Her community" because you are obviously not like her, and she disapproves of your lifestyle.

There's NO "community" for YOU on Madlander St., so you go to Club-People-Like-Chin, on some estate sim parcel half way across the grid, which is just a TP away, where, you find the people who are like you and online at the same time, and you socialise THERE.

That's why the SL-Messiah-Noob is WRONG.

It's this retarded concept that somehow you can "instantly and automatically build a community JUST by stuffing a load of people into the same accommodation zone"...

 

[Parhelion Palou]

9 hours ago, animats said:

That's what all those little square private islands are for - people who want their own private box. Mainland is for people who want to be connected to the big world.

Walled-off areas on mainland look ugly from the outside. If that's what you want, please move off mainland.

The days of communities passed years ago. Now most people want their own little place where they hang out with their own group. Anshe's properties have the ability to see avatars in a parcel turned off by default. That's the way the customers wanted it. I don't set my rental parcels that way and I suggest in the covenant that residents leave visibility on, but about half turn it off. I've flown around mainland and checked parcel settings. Well over half of the properties were set so people outside can't see people inside (and vice versa). If you want a community now, the best option is to find a roleplay community.

Whether you like it or not, mainland is for people to use as they wish (within the TOS). They can build ugly (and too many do). They can have walls as high as they wish. Ban lines, security orbs ... sure, why not? If you don't like it, perhaps a community with a covenant on an estate region would be better for you. Places like Caledon are pretty big and have lots of roads. ?

 

[ChinRey]

33 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Oh Chin... Really? You're smarter than this... Try hard...

Ummm... I suggest you re-read my post and see if you get the question on second try.

This is actually getting amusing. Maybe I should offer a prize to the first one who actually understands my question? It's actually a simple one and very clearly stated.

Edit: Oh well, let me try again:

You want a place where you won't be distrubed by other people and you get two options:

1. A place where there are bound to be lots of people passing by
2. A place where you can be sure you'll be left alone

Which of those places would you choose? I think most people would go for option 2 there. SL'ers won't.

That's part of the Second Life culture. There is no rational explanation for it, it's just one of those things you take for granted if you are an insider. And it's the reason why most Mainland has become Madland and will always remain Madland.

Edited September 1, 2018 by ChinRey

[Bree Giffen]

What the Mainland needs is a giant storm cloud where the center is the only place you can survive. This storm cloud shrinks every few days and forces people closer and closer together. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Bree Giffen

[Phil Deakins]

15 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Ah Phil and the art of being wrong.

You only need to look round to see the high street with the boarded up shops, full of nothing but bookies and charity shops and pawnbrokers. See the big  chain stores leaving the high st or going bust. Or maybe just read all the appeals in the paper from store owners to "Revive the high street" naturally at tax payers expense

Or even look at the research on footfall in the high street as this article does

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/14/shoppers-desert-uk-high-streets-to-put-more-jobs-at-risk

Simply put people really don't care a high street is nothing special or they care about is being able to buy what they want when they want. 

If they cared they would use high streets to ensure their survival. Simple fact is they dont. You can call the statement silly all you want that however does not make your assertion correct

You live in a different world to me. I told you that when I visit town, it's full of people shopping. Do you suggest that that isn't true? In fact, recently a new mall was built and opened in the centre, and it's always full.

Allow me to refresh your memory. You wrote that most people don't care whether or not there's a high street to shop in. That's what you got wrong. Of course, with online, and out of town, shopping, fewer people visit the 'high street' shops OR many people visit the high street shops less than they used to. That goes without saying. But you're mistaking that for most people not caring whether or not there's high street shopping. It's not an easy mistake to make. It takes real dedication to make a mistake as glaring as that.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Gabriele Graves]

I live on the mainland, and have always loved it.  Where others see problems, I see interesting areas to explore, many areas of beauty and a fantastic cornucopia of chaotic builds.  I love being able to drive, sail or fly vehicles over vast areas.  The contiguousness of it adds to its charm.
Is it perfect? no but then nothing ever is.  I do agree with the sentiments to perhaps change some of the ghastly rock textures on empty sims or turn them into openspace-style water sims for example.

I don't expect detractors to get this, nor do I care - let them look after their own needs.
It is enough that this is what I get out of mainland and that LL continue to offer this option.

My needs do not stretch as far as needing to sink ungodly amounts of money for a private island each month.
I just want a modest plot of land (or two) from LL with a reasonable allowance for rezzing my stuff and to do what I want with it (within the TOS) and I don't want a Linden home.

Fact is that without mainland, I would not have have any land in SL at all and probably not be as invested as I have been for so long.
For me, the middlemen that are SL land-barons don't add any value when I can go straight to LL for my land.
 

[Phorumities]

Speaking of free Linden homes, didn't LL totally distort the land market by giving 512's (with a crappy house on it) away free to any premium member that wanted one? How is that any different from selling $1 L parcels to anyone that wants one?

Sure flippers might get hurt, but its flippers that are throttling mainland sales with their crazy prices. Crazy prices you say? Yes if no one will pay the amount they ask, it's crazy.

Premium member sees land offered by flippers for $10 L per sq m...."I'm not paying that much, it's crazy, I'm gonna go buy a $1 L parcel on an estate, maybe one of those cool sailing estates I heard about".

See, even land on 50 sim sailing estates is given away free.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Phorumities
spelling

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

Premium member sees land offered by flippers for $10 L per sq m...."I'm not paying that much, it's crazy, I'm gonna go buy a $1 L parcel on an estate, maybe one of those cool sailing estates I heard about".

See, even land on 50 sim sailing estates is given away free.

Your up front cost to get one of those estate parcels is less, granted, but the monthly fees are WAY MORE than paying tier on mainland. So that's not a very good argument. Are you suggesting that LL set parcels to 1L and then raise the cost of tier? That's the only way you can compare the two situations.

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, Phorumities said:

Premium member sees land offered by flippers for $10 L per sq m...."I'm not paying that much, it's crazy, I'm gonna go buy a $1 L parcel on an estate, maybe one of those cool sailing estates I heard about".

See, even land on 50 sim sailing estates is given away free.

And the owner of the sailing sim will charge the first period of rent in advance, meaning that the renter won't get land for L$1.

I have a prepaid cell-phone - it's a crappy faux-Blackberry only because I couldn't find a new crappy flip-phone at the time. I had to pay for it up front; however, as I shun telephonic communication in the real world and pay only the minimum possible amount for connection it isn't a big deal. I could have paid more for a better phone but I decided not to.

People who use most other phone plans get "free" phones; however, that cost is baked into their monthly fees which are far higher than what I pay. Now I could say, "I dezerve a new iPhone for free because those people get one! Rowrbazzle!"

Buuuuhhhttttt.... that would make me an idiot.

[Phil Deakins]

sidetrack/

I'm not too dissimilar, Theresa. I shun making calls on my mobile (cell phone), which I only have for emergencies - in case my car breaks down when I'm out in it. So it's a very cheap phone with a pay-as-you-go account.

/sidetrack

[KanryDrago]

4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

You live in a different world to me. I told you that when I visit town, it's full of people shopping. Do you suggest that that isn't true? In fact, recently a new mall was built and opened in the centre, and it's always full.

Allow me to refresh your memory. You wrote that most people don't care whether or not there's a high street to shop in. That's what you got wrong. Of course, with online, and out of town, shopping, fewer people visit the 'high street' shops OR many people visit the high street shops less than they used to. That goes without saying. But you're mistaking that for most people not caring whether or not there's high street shopping. It's not an easy mistake to make. It takes real dedication to make a mistake as glaring as that.

No you are still wrong, if people cared they would use the high street to make sure it survives. I see people in my high street too, guess what its mostly people who work near it popping out at lunch time.

I have the evidence of the empty and boarded up shops, the demise of chain stores as they become unprofitable. The proliferation of pound shops, pawn shops, charity shops where there used to be butchers, bakers and candle stick makers. I have the evidence the only people calling on governments to do something about the decline are high street retailers not high street users. When people care they campaign to do something. The silence from people who might use the high street is deafening

You have....well nothing except for I am Phil Deakins and cannot be wrong.

Go away and find some evidence to back up your assertion and come back when you have an argument until then all you have is repeating a mantra in the hope its true

[Phil Deakins]

Oh well. You can have your opinion, but when you produce evidence that "most people couldn't give a damn" whether or not the High Street survives, you'll have some credibility but, until then, it's just your opinion, which I am absolutely certain is totally wrong. You have to show that most people don't give a damn, and you've shown nothing yet.

I'm not the one who needs to show evidence. You made the statement, so you're the one. Show it. Remember, it must apply to "most people".

[Blush Bravin]

18 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

No you are still wrong, if people cared they would use the high street to make sure it survives. I see people in my high street too, guess what its mostly people who work near it popping out at lunch time.

I have the evidence of the empty and boarded up shops, the demise of chain stores as they become unprofitable. The proliferation of pound shops, pawn shops, charity shops where there used to be butchers, bakers and candle stick makers. I have the evidence the only people calling on governments to do something about the decline are high street retailers not high street users. When people care they campaign to do something. The silence from people who might use the high street is deafening

You have....well nothing except for I am Phil Deakins and cannot be wrong.

Go away and find some evidence to back up your assertion and come back when you have an argument until then all you have is repeating a mantra in the hope its true

 

8 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Oh well. You can have your opinion, but when you produce evidence that "most people couldn't give a damn" whether or not the High Street survives, you'll have some credibility but, until then, it's just your opinion, which I am absolutely certain is totally wrong. You have to show that most people don't give a damn, and you've shown nothing yet.

I'm not the one who needs to show evidence. You made the statement, so you're the one. Show it. Remember, it must apply to "most people".

Guys, this isn't about high street. It's about SL mainland. Why on earth do you think what applies to RL applies here to SL mainland. Give it a rest please!

btw .. that was a rhetorical question that doesn't need a response. /me said in my nicest voice

[Phil Deakins]

Kanry brought it up

It still applies to mainland though. When you say "most people", you really should have evidence for it, or, right or wrong, it's just imagination.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Qie Niangao]

10 hours ago, Klytyna said:

It's this retarded concept that somehow you can "instantly and automatically build a community JUST by stuffing a load of people into the same accommodation zone"...

Reminds me of an analogy:

• Mainland : Estates :: Dorms : Greek System

51 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

People who use most other phone plans get "free" phones; however, that cost is baked into their monthly fees which are far higher than what I pay.

Another analogy:

• Mainland : Estates :: Prepaid : Postpaid Plan

Maybe this explains my Mainland preference. I lived in the dorms, and still use a cheap prepaid phone plan.

Speaking of phones, in a former life, I worked for The Phone Company and now go out of my way not to be the gullible customer who spends too much on telecom. The best deal available is Google Voice, free in US and Canada over any data connection, which is also free in populated wifi-saturated areas. You just need a US phone number -- available for a few dollars with a prepaid T-Mobile sim card.

[Penny Patton]

14 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Yes but that's not my question. If people want privacy so badly, why do they want to settle on mainland where they have to fight for it when SL is full of places where they can get all the privacy they want with no effort at all?

Only if you're willing to shell out for your own private region. Which is prohibitively expensive for most.

14 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Price matters to some of course but not to all. And mainland is only cheaper if you are a premium member and don't want more than the standard 1024 anyway.

You...need to have a Premium account to own mainland. And it's a cheaper alternative to a private estate regardless of how much land you want. In fact, because of the 10% bonus, the more land tier you want to pay for, the more tier you get for free on top of it. I think most people underestimate just how cheap mainland can be if you take advantage of all of the cost saving options.

 In addition, Linden Lab has simply not provided the alternative you're suggesting to those who want a private, isolated parcel with no neighbors. Such an option does not exist, at least not within the price range of most of LL's customers. Someone like me, who does not have the spare cash to toss at SL, is stuck between my mainland option, or no land at all whatsoever.

So, there are multiple explanations. Even more if we add in the additional explanations I gave in my last post that you seem to have glossed over.

14 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Why *should* we revive it, it's a FAILED experiment, and one that failed more than 10 years ago.

That's a good question that I don't think people are giving due consideration.

I think there are people in SL who do love the mainland, in concept if not in execution. As I pointed out above, the options and tools for landowners are severely underdeveloped and I think mainland could be thriving if not for that. But by that same token, I would say there are people who don't really care for mainland and if there was an alternative within the same price range I think a lot of people would jump to that.

If LL provided both the much needed development of landowner options and tools and a price equivalent alternative to mainland for those who want more privacy, then I think there would be a lot more people owning land in general in SL.

[KanryDrago]

38 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Only if you're willing to shell out for your own private region. Which is prohibitively expensive for most.

You...need to have a Premium account to own mainland. And it's a cheaper alternative to a private estate regardless of how much land you want. In fact, because of the 10% bonus, the more land tier you want to pay for, the more tier you get for free on top of it. I think most people underestimate just how cheap mainland can be if you take advantage of all of the cost saving options.

 

Not sure how you work out land is cheaper on mainland just doing the sums here for my 4096 plot

cost in lindens 4000 cost in us$ 15.94

for mainland I would need for the same size plot

7$ for premium + 22$ for the tier fee ( as even with the free 1024 and 10% extra I would still be above the 2048 lower tier)  which if I can add up makes 29$

Also the upfront cost of buying the mainland in the first place.

I am curious how you manage therefore to make the statement "And it's a cheaper alternative to a private estate regardless of how much land you want"

[PhantomPixel]

15 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Why *should* we revive it, it's a FAILED experiment, and one that failed more than 10 years ago.

Well, simply because the current incarnation of mainland is never going to go away. It will always be present and will always be as it is now. So why not at least try and improve upon it. Also, I wouldn't say it failed more than 10 years ago. When I first started SL in 2007 mainland was very popular and highly sort after. Entire role-plays, combat zones, clubs, homes etc etc were all located on mainland. Most of the places I first hung out at in SL were located on mainland. There were land agents and companies dedicated to selling and renting out parcels on mainland who made a significant amount of money from doing this. I used to work for one of them, owned by an avatar called ReverandMathias Merit (I think) and there were always new people daily looking to rent or purchase mainland property. It was only later as the flippers took over and prices started to hike and the population of SL started to drop, after the bubble burst, that mainland shifted more towards what we know now.

15 hours ago, Klytyna said:

There is already more Madlands than people want, that's why so much of it is empty.

Hence....comments above.....original comments.....comments on other posts....

15 hours ago, Klytyna said:

You cannot *create* "close knit communities", only an idiot would even try. All you can do is jam a bunch of strangers together and hope they don't murder each other over disputes about whose fence is blocking daylight from whose fruit tree...

And yet we have Linden Homes....and people use them.... What I was suggesting is basically an enhanced version of Linden Homes. So instead of just housing, having commercial areas, larger land allowances etc etc etc. I mean, how do you want SL to be improved exactly? I don't ever really see you suggesting any real improvements in these forums, more just whining and bitching about how everyone else is wrong, putting people down and using cringey phrases like "madlands" and "entitlement club".

15 hours ago, Klytyna said:

"The Madlands... We must save it! It failed 10 years ago, but if we slavishly repeat ALL the same mistakes in our thinking about our ability to manufacture communities tro order, the mistakes that causzed the Madlands to fail, WE CAN STILL SAVE IT!"

I dont think it was trying to force communities or manufacture them to order that made mainland fail. It was a variety of different things from but not limited to premium costs, flippers and their high resell prices, limitation of 40 avatars at a time, lack of customisation when compared to a private regions such as ground textures, terraforming, region controls, having your view obscured by gigantic prim walls etc etc. I don't think the introduction of homesteads exactly helped mainland either.

[Solar Legion]

Linden Homes were an added option for how to allocate the free 512 that came with premium. Nothing more.

[PhantomPixel]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

Linden Homes were an added option for how to allocate the free 512 that came with premium. Nothing more.

Therefor.....we could try improving upon the idea. It makes no difference how they came about to be honest.

Edited September 1, 2018 by PhantomPixel

[Solar Legion]

Just now, PhantomPixel said:

Therefor.....we could try improve on the idea. It makes no difference how they came about to be honest.

"We" - who is this "we" you speak of?

Want a community? Make one yourself. Linden Lab already made the attempt several times over and not just with Bay City or Nautilus - there are a few of the truly old sims in Second Life that actually were meant to be themed or community centered areas.

Frankly I had to try not to laugh too hard at something another user tried to use as part of their argument - that picture taken with an absolutely insane Draw Distance that no one in their right mind uses when wandering around Second Life.

[PhantomPixel]

11 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

"We" - who is this "we" you speak of?

Want a community? Make one yourself. Linden Lab already made the attempt several times over and not just with Bay City or Nautilus - there are a few of the truly old sims in Second Life that actually were meant to be themed or community centered areas.

Frankly I had to try not to laugh too hard at something another user tried to use as part of their argument - that picture taken with an absolutely insane Draw Distance that no one in their right mind uses when wandering around Second Life.

See, you take things too literally. "We" can mean a multitude of things, not specifically YOU. It can refer to anyone who is interested in the idea of improving upon something. It doesn't always mean EVERY single person in existence. I don't believe I said that I myself wanted a community, I was merely suggesting ideas on how the failings of mainland could be improved and re worked thus bringing back more community aspects to SL for those that enjoy them AND combatting the flipper issue. Bay City and Nautilus are slightly different to what I was suggesting. My suggestion was basically mixing linden homes with commercial and other ideas to create new premium given community areas, in place of mainland and in place of linden homes. There is a difference between that and building an area and leaving it to the residents to purchase and move into said zone. The fact that the idea I suggested would be given free with each premium subscription, I feel, would mean there being a higher chance of it being populated than places like Bay City and Nautilus that are not really used all that much. Coupled with the addition of commercial zones could encourage developers old and new to take up one of of those premium included commercial parcels, if not for any other reason that it came WITH their premium subscription.  At the end of the day....it was just a suggestion and a better one than you have made so far :).

I am curious what you mean by the second part of your message though. I don't believe I ever made out any kind of argument relating to that. I only mentioned something about views being obscured by gigantic prim walls. This can happen on small parcels, large parcels, sim borders....you don't need a "absolutely insane draw distance" to see them. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by PhantomPixel

[Phorumities]

6 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And the owner of the sailing sim will charge the first period of rent in advance, meaning that the renter won't get land for L$1.

I have a prepaid cell-phone - it's a crappy faux-Blackberry only because I couldn't find a new crappy flip-phone at the time. I had to pay for it up front; however, as I shun telephonic communication in the real world and pay only the minimum possible amount for connection it isn't a big deal. I could have paid more for a better phone but I decided not to.

People who use most other phone plans get "free" phones; however, that cost is baked into their monthly fees which are far higher than what I pay. Now I could say, "I dezerve a new iPhone for free because those people get one! Rowrbazzle!"

Buuuuhhhttttt.... that would make me an idiot.

They charge the first months RENT in advance, they aren't charging thousands of Lindens to be the owner of the parcel, and then charging first months rent.

You are confusing the purchase price with rent. You own the parcel for free or one L, as opposed to paying thousands of L's to buy the parcel.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Phorumities
added words

[PhantomPixel]

3 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

They charge the first months RENT in advance, they aren't charging thousands of Lindens to be the owner of the parcel, and then charging first months rent.

You are confusing the purchase price with rent. You own the parcel for free or one L, as opposed to paying thousands of L's to buy the parcel.

I actually quite like your idea. I mean my idea was only a suggestion and one that I highly doubt LL would ever do. Your idea is more viable and likely but do you think they would ever actually do it?. They make a fair bit from the auctions. Bring on the $5 fee for purchasing lindens xDD