My thoughts on mainland

[Phil Deakins]

LL could do that with some of the abandoned land, but there needs to be plenty (most, I think) available to request and buy. If they did it with some parts, then I'm sure that the land around those parts would be bought up. They could do a little experiment and just do 1 or 2 bits to see what happens.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Blush Bravin]

2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

LL could do that with some of the abandoned land, but there needs to be plenty (most, I think) available to request and buy. If they did it with some parts, then I'm sure that the land around those parts would be bought up. They could do a little experiment and just do 1 or 2 bits to see what happens.

If they did it with 50% of the region they could then turn the remaining land into double prim lands. No doubt those lands would become as sought after as any of the prime coastal sailing lands today.

[Phil Deakins]

Definitely.

[Claireschen Hesten]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

Take the abandoned land that's there now and turn it into water or green spaces that are permanently protected lands owned by the Governor

Do that and people bordering it will just use it as an opportunity to allow objects to spill out and use more land than they are paying for I have two neighbours doing that one in my home sim on to protected info hub and abandoned land and one bordering at 0,0,0 on to the protected hub land. Protected land is only protected in the sense it isn't a build enabled free for all unfortunately nothing stopping someone ruining your view over "protected" land by rezzing a vast expanse of prims linked to a root prim on their land

[Solar Legion]

Further - not everyone bloody wants road/waterway access.

The only reason my home (renting from a Private Island right now) has a "beach" or anything remotely similar right now is because of how the parcel is positioned relative to the rest of the sim.

Were it surrounded by land, the artificial trappings of a "beach" would be gone.

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

Do that and people bordering it will just use it as an opportunity to allow objects to spill out and use more land than they are paying for I have two neighbours doing that one in my home sim on to protected info hub and abandoned land and one bordering at 0,0,0 on to the protected hub land. Protected land is only protected in the sense it isn't a build enabled free for all unfortunately nothing stopping someone ruining your view over "protected" land by rezzing a vast expanse of prims linked to a root prim on their land

I know this occurs. To be honest, most of the time I see it done it doesn't detract from the surroundings. When I have had a problem with it blocking access or the view I have contacted the owner of the objects and asked nicely if they could move it. If that fails then I have AR'd the offense and a Linden has removed the objects. So I don't think that's much of an argument against having  protected land in a region.

49 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Further - not everyone bloody wants road/waterway access.

The only reason my home (renting from a Private Island right now) has a "beach" or anything remotely similar right now is because of how the parcel is positioned relative to the rest of the sim.

Were it surrounded by land, the artificial trappings of a "beach" would be gone.

Of course you wouldn't just plop water in the middle of an area without the proper terraform and amenities that go with it. I did say green spaces as well that wouldn't include water or roads. It's just a matter of being smart and not simple minded to get the job done. This would give people a choice of the type of area they'd like to purchase and also give you a buffer away from your neighbors.

But this is just my idea of one way to improve mainland. I've learned a long time ago that there's always more than one way to get a job done. In fact, variety makes things much more interesting. So I welcome your solutions as well.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[Blush Bravin]

35 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Were it surrounded by land, the artificial trappings of a "beach" would be gone.

Water can much more than a beach. Water in the form of lakes, rivers, streams all add interest to the landscape.

[animats]

3 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Further - not everyone bloody wants road/waterway access.

That's what all those little square private islands are for - people who want their own private box. Mainland is for people who want to be connected to the big world.

Walled-off areas on mainland look ugly from the outside. If that's what you want, please move off mainland.

Edited August 31, 2018 by animats

[KanryDrago]

10 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

I think that's the silliest thing I've seen written here for quite some time.

I don't often go into the centre of my city but, when I do, it's full of people shopping in the "high street". Some people (me included) prefer to not to use high streets, and shop either online or in out-of-town locations, but I doubt that even most of those "couldn't give a damn" whether or not the high street still exists.

 

Ah Phil and the art of being wrong.

You only need to look round to see the high street with the boarded up shops, full of nothing but bookies and charity shops and pawnbrokers. See the big  chain stores leaving the high st or going bust. Or maybe just read all the appeals in the paper from store owners to "Revive the high street" naturally at tax payers expense

Or even look at the research on footfall in the high street as this article does

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/14/shoppers-desert-uk-high-streets-to-put-more-jobs-at-risk

Simply put people really don't care a high street is nothing special or they care about is being able to buy what they want when they want. 

If they cared they would use high streets to ensure their survival. Simple fact is they dont. You can call the statement silly all you want that however does not make your assertion correct

[KanryDrago]

20 hours ago, PhantomPixel said:

I think if you read the premise properly you will get the impression that current mainland can go to hell and we should create something new that encourages people to move onto it and brings back a greater sense of community to Second Life. Proving mainland is worth saving is irrelevant when the current incarnation of mainland, if nothing changes, will remain to the end of SL time. So might as well improve upon the idea and create something thats more viable for the SL community

Why should we encourage people to move onto it old or new. Personally I find no lack of community in SL. You certainly won't build a community by coercing people into living next to you. Its merely a thinly disguised call for the labs to spend more time money and energy on the premium crowd rather than all sl residents. A plea for preferential treatment when you do nothing to deserve it

[Dillon Levenque]

I appear to be in a miniscule minority in this regard. I LIKE unoccupied mainland in SL. I live in a patch of it. I love empty places. Seriously. Here are some pictures of places less than an hour's drive from my RL home.

Two pictures from Monterey: Cannery Row and Fisherman's Wharf (which strikes me as something that might be a fun idea for SL). The third picture is on the opposite side of the Santa Lucia Mountains, not far west of Greenfield on the edge of the Salinas Valley. If you turn left after crossing that bridge you can drive through the mountains, along the Arroyo Seco River at first then over a divide and along the Carmel River, all the way to Carmel. Do it in the early Spring if we've had a little rain and you'll think you're in Ireland.

I like Monterey. I even like Fisherman's Wharf, tourists not-withstanding. But I spend FAR more time in places like the third picture. Am I a minority of One?

 

[Blush Bravin]

3 minutes ago, Dillon Levenque said:

I appear to be in a miniscule minority in this regard. I LIKE unoccupied mainland in SL. I live in a patch of it. I love empty places. Seriously. Here are some pictures of places less than an hour's drive from my RL home.

Two pictures from Monterey: Cannery Row and Fisherman's Wharf (which strikes me as something that might be a fun idea for SL). The third picture is on the opposite side of the Santa Lucia Mountains, not far west of Greenfield on the edge of the Salinas Valley. If you turn left after crossing that bridge you can drive through the mountains, along the Arroyo Seco River at first then over a divide and along the Carmel River, all the way to Carmel. Do it in the early Spring if we've had a little rain and you'll think you're in Ireland.

I like Monterey. I even like Fisherman's Wharf, tourists not-withstanding. But I spend FAR more time in places like the third picture. Am I a minority of One?

 

I enjoy spaces like this as well, unfortunately most of the abandoned mainland doesn't look like this. Also, there's nothing stopping someone from purchasing  part of that space and turning it into a garbage dump. That's why I am still hoping that a Linden or two with the ability to start a new project will take notice of this thread and take steps to insure that protected green spaces are created.

[Solar Legion]

42 minutes ago, animats said:

That's what all those little square private islands are for - people who want their own private box. Mainland is for people who want to be connected to the big world.

Walled-off areas on mainland look ugly from the outside. If that's what you want, please move off mainland.

You could not be more wrong if you tried. 

[Garnet Psaltery]

1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

Ah Phil and the art of being wrong.

You only need to look round to see the high street with the boarded up shops, full of nothing but bookies and charity shops and pawnbrokers. See the big  chain stores leaving the high st or going bust. Or maybe just read all the appeals in the paper from store owners to "Revive the high street" naturally at tax payers expense

Or even look at the research on footfall in the high street as this article does

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/14/shoppers-desert-uk-high-streets-to-put-more-jobs-at-risk

Simply put people really don't care a high street is nothing special or they care about is being able to buy what they want when they want. 

If they cared they would use high streets to ensure their survival. Simple fact is they dont. You can call the statement silly all you want that however does not make your assertion correct

My local high street is thriving, as it will anywhere people care about it.  Your high street is evidently different.  Why don't you move?  And s*d the Grauniad.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Garnet Psaltery

[animats]

13 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I enjoy spaces like this as well, unfortunately most of the abandoned mainland doesn't look like this. Also, there's nothing stopping someone from purchasing  part of that space and turning it into a garbage dump. That's why I am still hoping that a Linden or two with the ability to start a new project will take notice of this thread and take steps to insure that protected green spaces are created.

Yes. That picture shows roads, a bridge, and paths. There's some greenery.

Clearcutting today for a better tomorrow. About ten empty sims. Corsica. 1km draw distance. There I am at the bottom.

Areas too far from roads or water tend to be empty.  Not all are this ugly. Trees and paths would help a lot here.

 

[Ethan Paslong]

1 hour ago, animats said:

Mainland is for people who want to be connected to the big world.

Walled-off areas on mainland look ugly from the outside. If that's what you want, please move off mainland.

the first.... NO

the second... derender it if you don't want to see it. Mainland is free, no limits except TOS and maturity levels. What you want is a private sim with your rules, move out my precious mainland, and buy your own.... invite your friends, buy your community but leave the mainland what it is.

And no i'm not against a refurbishing and reorganisation, but when forcing to community life?... it will end more empty than it ever was before.

[Qie Niangao]

19 minutes ago, animats said:

Areas too far from roads or water tend to be empty.  Not all are this ugly. Trees and paths would help a lot here.

Yeah, Corsica in particular has some vast stretches of that hostile, desolate granite terrain. But in general, just a small amount of scattered vegetation could go a long way towards breaking up those texture repeats and making it look more like land.

And strewing some plants doesn't mean the land must be protected. On the contrary, that would make it more appealing to a buyer as well as for neighbors and explorers. The vegetation could all poof as soon as the parcel was bought -- that's fine, the new owner gets to decide what to replace it with -- but until there's a buyer, why must it be empty and ugly?

There could be a program that keeps a few Moles occupied just terraforming and planting abandoned parcels for eventual resale. Maybe give a trusted Mole a continent to play with as proof of concept. It wouldn't be about originality or cleverness or any of the things we usually expect of Moles, but rather an exercise in minimalist* / Olmsted / Zen landscaping.

__________________
*A "minimalist" landscaping style to fit with any assortment of diverse neighbors, as well as to keep a tight rein on rendering impact.

[Phorumities]

51 minutes ago, animats said:

Yes. That picture shows roads, a bridge, and paths. There's some greenery.

Clearcutting today for a better tomorrow. About ten empty sims. Corsica. 1km draw distance. There I am at the bottom.

Areas too far from roads or water tend to be empty.  Not all are this ugly. Trees and paths would help a lot here.

 

Why didn't you set the sun to mid day when you took the picture?

[Penny Patton]

My thoughts on mainland:

Mainland is cheaper than most people think:

Yes, even at L$1/sq.m (which you can get by requesting LL to sell you abandoned land) the initial purchase cost can be prohibitive and maybe LL should look into changing that.

HOWEVER, the actual tier is less than people think. First, you need to have a Premium account to own mainland in the first place (own, not rent). This means 1024sq.m. of your tier is already a part of your Premium account. 

You can cash out your Premium stipend to pay for your account, further reducing the cost. It covers most of it, leaving you paying something like $14 a year. That means owning 1024sq.m. costs you only a tiny more than $1 a month.

You get 10% more mainland tier for free. So that means the above line isn't entirely correct because if you're just using the initial 1024 that comes with your Premium account, you're actually getting 1126.4sq.m. of land for a little over $1 a month. And that scales. So if you decide to add another 1024.sq.m. on top of what you get with Premium you're getting 2252.8sq.m. This is because you can create a group and contribute the tier on your account to the group for that 10% bonus.

 A lot of SL users, even many who own mainland, don't seem to know these things. I think both Premium accounts and mainland would be more popular if LL did more to point out the value.

Presentation matters.

Qie is spot on, making mainland areas look good would make buying that land more appealing to potential landowners. LL has never seemed to understand that presentation matters and that lack of understanding costs them money every day. LL, hire an Art Director if you don't already have one. If you do have one, what's the problem? Are you not listening to them? Have you crippled the position by not including your art department in matters of development? What's the deal here?

On a related note:

Stop making it possible for one bad neighbor to ruin an entire sim for everyone else.

Seriously, LL. All it takes is one person to buy a tiny parcel of land in a sim and they can ruin the whole experience for everyone else. But it's never just one person, is it? Of course not. And it's not just one way in which people can ruin the experience for their neighbors, either.

Lag.

I've owned the same mainland spot for years, and it has always been a laggy sim. So laggy that when people come to visit me they often bring up the lag. I've filed trouble tickets with LL but I always get the same response: There's someone, or multiple people, in the sim using excessive resources. They say they'll bring it up to those responsible, but nothing ever changes.

Ugly or disruptive mainland builds.

You see it in this thread, people saying they want walls around their mainland parcels because of their neighbor's builds. And other people complaining that the walls themselves are a problem. Not only can a neighbor's build be unsightly, but it can easily be a source of performance loss, killing framerates just because of how unoptimized the content they choose to use is.

I've suggested in the past that LL could introduce a feature allowing people to only have content on their parcel be rezzed for anyone on that parcel. It could even work both ways, so you could build whatever you like on your parcel and it wouldn't be rendered to anyone outside the parcel. It would certainly give people more privacy, but it would also make it easier for people to actually render their own mainland builds, without their neighbor's content hurting their framerates. I've presented this idea on the Jira and at viewer development meetings, where I've gotten two different responses from Oz Linden.

•  At one time Oz said they felt this was a great idea and that they'd look into making something like that happen. Maybe not exactly like I described the feature, but with similar goals in mind.
•  At another time Oz told me there is no way they would ever implement a feature like that because they don't want the mainland to become disconnected islands where no one socializes with their neighbors.

(ETA: Not picking on Oz here, he's just usually presiding over the viewer dev meetings I've been to, and he's only saying what has always been LL's official policy on these matters.)

So who knows where LL stands on the issue right now. What I will say is that LL seems to believe they can force people to socialize. You see it in the second statement I received from Oz, you also see it in LL's refusal to give SL users a "silent log-on" mode so you can log in without anyone being notified.  You also see it in LL's negative reaction to any suggestion of offering smaller, individual user sized private land offerings, a suggestion to which they have at times given the same "we don't want the SL to become disconnected islands where no one socializes with their neighbors" response. To their awful "Recommendations" profile feature. Remember that? Where LL would take whatever interest tags you entered in your profile and use that to spam your email with a list of suggested random strangers they wanted you to send an unsolicited friend request to? And they'd throw your profile at other random strangers telling them to send you an unsolicited friend request?

 To this idea that you can force people to socialize, Linden Lab, I regretfully have to bring you a message from my people, the humans of Earth, whom I'm not sure you have any experience interacting with: You can't force people to socialize and expect it to turn out well. It does not work. It has never worked. It will never work. STOP TRYING TO FORCE PEOPLE TO SOCIALIZE. You're only making things worse.

However, you can make it easier for people to choose to socialize, which would actually be beneficial to both you and your customers. And that brings me to my next thought on mainland:

It should be a lot easier to relocate if you own mainland.

Right now, it is an expensive hassle if you decide you don't like where your land in SL is and you want to move. For any of the reasons given above, or any other reasons for that matter. If someone decides they want to move to another part of the mainland, it is going to be a painful, expensive process. And it's probably going to take a long time to make it happen, too, depending on how much money they're willing to lose in the deal.

In addition to mitigating some of the above problems with mainland, it would also encourage the development of communities. This is how you get people to socialize, Linden Lab, by making it easier for likeminded people to come together on mainland and create their own communities.

 There's literally thousands of people out there on the SL mainland who have no interest in interacting with the neighbors they're stuck with or, worse, actively hate some or all of their neighbors. There's thousands more who don't own mainland at all (either renting in private estates or just not giving LL any of their money at all) because of how easy it is to get stuck with bad neighbors. Not to mention all of the people who have at one time or another tried the mainland thing, had a bad experience because of bad neighbors, and just decided that as much as they liked the idea of having land in SL, the reality of it was just not worth the money.

  It's not that they're anti-social and hate people, it's just that due to the nature of mainland, they're stuck with the neighbors they have. So they build walls, or skyboxes, or sometimes erect deliberately awful builds to try and make neighbors they don't like leave. If Linden Lab made it easy for those people to relocate, many of those people will probably try to spread out to empty sims, and others would instead move to live closer to friends who also own mainland. And those friends will have friends of their own who will want to get in on that. Before you know it, you have a whole bunch of people with similar interests socializing together and working things out so they can integrate their builds in with one another into virtual towns and cities. If that had been possible since the beginning, the SL mainland would probably be a patchwork of thriving communities, similar to what you see in themed estates like Caledon and The Wastelands, rather than the walled off parcels of isolation like much of it is today.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Penny Patton

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

You could not be more wrong if you tried. 

Could you explain what you mean a bit more in detail?

I do not approve of the rather aggressive tone in animat's post but he what he actually says is: if you want to live in a neighborhood where you can socialize with people around you, you find yourself a home in a place where there's a chance you'll get some neighbors. If you don't want that, you find yourself a home in a place where there's no risk of being disturbed by other people.

I think it's safe to say that to the vast majority of people in the world, that makes perfect sense. It doesn't to a Second Life user, I know that. I've been here long enough to realize that fact and accept it. But I have to admit I never understood why.

[ellestones]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

... strewing some plants doesn't mean the land must be protected. On the contrary, that would make it more appealing to a buyer as well as for neighbors and explorers. The vegetation could all poof as soon as the parcel was bought -- that's fine, the new owner gets to decide what to replace it with -- but until there's a buyer, why must it be empty and ugly?

There could be a program that keeps a few Moles occupied just terraforming and planting abandoned parcels for eventual resale. Maybe give a trusted Mole a continent to play with as proof of concept.

__________________
*A "minimalist" landscaping style to fit with any assortment of diverse neighbors, as well as to keep a tight rein on rendering impact.

this ^^ is real estate properties sales 101

make it pretty for the intending buyer. This is what it can look like on this for sale property

also, the mole-made objects on the property could (should imo) be set to Sell Objects with Parcel. The parcel buyer gets them Mod/Copy/No Transfer with the purchase

 

[Solar Legion]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Could you explain what you mean a bit more in detail?

I do not approve of the rather aggressive tone in animat's post but he what he actually says is: if you want to live in a neighborhood where you can socialize with people around you, you find yourself a home in a place where there's a chance you'll get some neighbors. If you don't want that, you find yourself a home in a place where there's no risk of being disturbed by other people.

I think it's safe to say that to the vast majority of people in the world, that makes perfect sense. It doesn't to a Second Life user, I know that. I've been here long enough to realize that fact and accept it. But I have to admit I never understood why.

There is no need whatsoever to expound - "mainland" is whatever the user wishes it to be, within the confines of the Terms of Service. Always has been and always will be. 

That is the beginning and end of it. 

[Penny Patton]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Could you explain what you mean a bit more in detail?

I do not approve of the rather aggressive tone in animat's post but he what he actually says is: if you want to live in a neighborhood where you can socialize with people around you, you find yourself a home in a place where there's a chance you'll get some neighbors. If you don't want that, you find yourself a home in a place where there's no risk of being disturbed by other people.

I think it's safe to say that to the vast majority of people in the world, that makes perfect sense. It doesn't to a Second Life user, I know that. I've been here long enough to realize that fact and accept it. But I have to admit I never understood why.

I have to agree with SolarLegion on this. Look what you made me do! Are you happy?!

But seriously, if it were possible to get tiny private estates of any size, for the same price of an equivalent mainland parcel, directly from LL with absolutely no difference other than the lack of neighbors then sure, you and animats would have a point. But that's not the case. Mainland is far cheaper, there's no covenant of extra rules to follow, and I have to reiterate, the problem isn't even always that one has neighbors, it's the lack of control one has, due entirely to a combination of underdeveloped land tools and a lack of customer service from LL, over the effect one's neighbors have on their mainland experience.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

There is no need whatsoever to expound - "mainland" is whatever the user wishes it to be

Yes but that's not my question. If people want privacy so badly, why do they want to settle on mainland where they have to fight for it when SL is full of places where they can get all the privacy they want with no effort at all?

Price matters to some of course but not to all. And mainland is only cheaper if you are a premium member and don't want more than the standard 1024 anyway.

I know the standard answer, it's: "Because!".

But has anybody here ever thought about it beyond that?

 

47 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

I have to agree with SolarLegion on this. Look what you made me do! Are you happy?!

Always nice to get people to agree.

I don't really expect an explanation though, because I don't think there is any. It's just one of those weird SL things nobody else can possibly understand.

Edited September 1, 2018 by ChinRey

[Klytyna]

On 30 August 2018 at 9:24 PM, PhantomPixel said:

I have an idea on how to revive the idea of a mainland

Why *should* we revive it, it's a FAILED experiment, and one that failed more than 10 years ago.

On 30 August 2018 at 9:24 PM, PhantomPixel said:

We should remove linden homes and create a brand new mainland.

There is already more Madlands than people want, that's why so much of it is empty.

On 30 August 2018 at 9:24 PM, PhantomPixel said:

You can opt to choose to receive a parcel on either commercial or residential. Therefor creating close knit residential communities

You cannot *create* "close knit communities", only an idiot would even try. All you can do is jam a bunch of strangers together and hope they don't murder each other over disputes about whose fence is blocking daylight from whose fruit tree...

On 30 August 2018 at 9:24 PM, PhantomPixel said:

Thoughts?

"The Madlands... We must save it! It failed 10 years ago, but if we slavishly repeat ALL the same mistakes in our thinking about our ability to manufacture communities tro order, the mistakes that causzed the Madlands to fail, WE CAN STILL SAVE IT!"

Thoughts? Let's not and say we did, it will be cheaper, and have pretty much the same effect...

19 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

And, of course, it's self-evident to 'most people' that mainland is worth saving.

Ahhh, "self evident" as in you have NO actual evidence to show that Madlands is worth saving other then "The Madlands exists".

19 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Apart from that, mainland earns money for LL, some of which is passed on to us in the form of paying for improvements, and all sort of ways.

Dis somebody forget there are TWICE as many estate regions as Madlands regions, and that unlike the Madlands, ALL estate regions generate income for LL, and usually more income, because, estate regions cost 50% more money!