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Eirynne Sieyes

Are we afraid to talk about who creates low lag mesh bodies?

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So, I start again, more cleanly this time: 

In line with the myriad of recent discussion on how bloated SL has become, I would like to identify which heads and which bodies are well-made.  

I know little about mesh and Bento, but I can tell that two bodies that that load quickly are SLINK and EBODY. 

I will go further. Maitreya and Belleza, the two most popular meshes, load very slowly. 

 

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As was stated in previous thread.... loading times is going to vary for everyone, because of a number of factors, such as their connection, set up..etc.   Personally, the mesh bodies all load pretty quickly for me, I have noticed no significant difference.

Something you can do on your own, is gather info.  Wear each body and note the complexity for each one, would be a start I suppose. 

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5 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

So you can see what meshes are visible in low, the ones who won't lag you. Then you can switch back. Try it. It's a very interesting experiment.

Are you saying that you see your FPS go down, or your ability to move hampered, only when these higher complexity mesh avatars are drawn? Spell it out for us.

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Again ...LAG has many contributing factors, that will give each person a different result.  Are some mesh bodies more complex than others, I am sure.  And I am sure, for some... depending on their computer set up and connection that will matter more.  Can more be done to optimize all  mesh creations, I am sure that is true too.   What more is there to say on this though, you've already decided the what, how and why of it.

Not sure why this needed 2 threads.

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9 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

So you can see what meshes are visible in low, the ones who won't lag you. Then you can switch back. Try it. It's a very interesting experiment.

I used to run around in low waiting on prim hair to rez.. There is no body,head,hair,combo today,that is going to lag me out like then..

It'd be hard to find a combination that would weigh as heavy as one hairdo then.. so it's not more bloated today..and those three will rez faster today..

So really I'm not getting more lagged out today in low med high or ultra than back then..

 

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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Love,

Not trolling. I've been here since 2005. Never trolled. But I am concerned about lag.  Look at some of the threads talking about exactly this.  Just one, as an eample:. Read the whole "This is why we can't have nice things" thread. 

 

We, as residents, need to be concerned. We need to become educated. Not everyone has high end computers or video cards. SL was always intended for everyone, even those with low end computers. They can barely come here anymore except in low. This contributes greatly to the declining user base.

If we care about this game, we need  to identify the bloat. If we care, the designers who bloat will begin to address the issue. It comes down to educating users so the designers can do a better job.

Lag  and mesh bloat are a huge problem in SL. 

Residents get crazy. They want SL to impose avatar limits; others say it is their right to be bloated, etc. I'm not advocating any of that. 

But there are standards that professional creators have to meet to keep content to minimum lag.We don't bother. And we keep buying the stuff that bloats us up. Maybe it is time we began to demand that the designers build better.  

We can deny, rationalize, all we want. But, if we, the residents, put the pressure on them, we can literally change the world.

Edited by Eirynne Sieyes
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3 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

Read the whole thread

No. I’ve already read a lot of it. I won’t be told what to do.

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TBH, "Creators" don't have to do anything.  They are residents too.  Consumers... also don't have to do anything either.  Talk with your wallet, buy what you want.  Become a creator, make and sell the things you think we all ought to be buying. Lead by example.

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SL has always had a system recommended requirements and a minimum requirements.. So SL was not always intended for everyone..just those that meet the requirements..

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4 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

We, as residents, need to be concerned. We need to become educated. Not everyone has high end computers or video cards. SL was always intended for everyone, even those with low end computers. They can barely come here anymore except in low. This contributes greatly to the declining user base.

If we care about this game, we need  to identify the bloat. If we care, the designers who bloat will begin to address the issue. It comes down to educating users so the designers can do a better job.

Lag  and mesh bloat are a huge problem in SL. 

Residents get crazy. They want SL to impose avatar limits; others say it is their right to be bloated, etc. I'm not advocating any of that. 

But there are standards that professional creators have to meet to keep content to minimum lag.We don't bother. And we keep buying the stuff that bloats us up. Maybe it is time we began to demand that the designers learn build better. 

If we, the residents, put the pressure on them, we can change the world.

How do you know that the user base is declining? Has Linden Lab made the numbers of user registrations and active users public? Can we see those analytics over time? If not, anything else is speculation.

How do you know that mesh bloat is a huge problem? There are many reasons for lag including, for instance, texture bloat, which I would argue is a much bigger culprit than mesh bodies.

Professional standards? What professional standards? The problem of avatars and mesh should never have been ours to solve. Linden Lab should have taken care of it years ago. The pressure should be on them, not the designers who took it upon themselves to create a hack to improve the appearance of avatars.

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Lots of denial, opposition, and rationalization going on!

Like I said earlier, log in on a low setting. You will find that SLINK and EBODY are visible; most others are not. Just goes to show that some designers know how to design. 

If we can get past ourselves, we may get the offenders to continue making beautiful things in a way that increases everybody's performance. 

And, for the record, SL has historically touted itself as playable by even low end users.

I will not be posting to this thread anymore. I don't want to fight or argue. I have pointed out my observations and and ask you to put aside your biases and consider what I've said. 

Have a great day!

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

Lots of denial, opposition, and rationalization going on!

Like I said earlier, log in on a low setting. You will find that SLINK and EBODY are visible; most others are not. Just goes to show that some designers know how to design. 

If we can get past ourselves, we may get the offenders to continue making beautiful things in a way that increases everybody's performance. 

And, for the record, SL has historically touted itself as playable by even low end users.

I will not be posting to this thread anymore. I don't want to fight or argue. I have pointed out my observations and and ask you to put aside your biases and consider what I've said. 

Have a great day!

 

 

Low setting does not give me the same results as you are getting.....Why? that has been explained several times.

 

I have no bias here. I don't oppose anyone or LL taking the time to optimize and make SL better.  

 

I have considered what you've said, obviously ..as I replied.  I didn't realize it was suppose to be a one sided conversation, where only you were allowed to have opinions.  My bad o.O

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What is this 'lag' people talk of?

Written on a relatively old PC with DDSPF*-connection via ADSL.

*Deep, Distant Swedish Pine Forest

I mean, sure, if I teleport to a full event and forgot my photography settings on, it'll take a moment or two. But to be fair, even the 'worse' mesh bodies are nothing against the 600k complexity system avatars with multi-prim accessories.

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6 minutes ago, Orwar said:

What is this 'lag' people talk of?

Written on a relatively old PC with DDSPF*-connection via ADSL.

*Deep, Distant Swedish Pine Forest

I mean, sure, if I teleport to a full event and forgot my photography settings on, it'll take a moment or two. But to be fair, even the 'worse' mesh bodies are nothing against the 600k complexity system avatars with multi-prim accessories.

The OP spoke of lag, but didn’t reply to my specific questions. It seems the focus is only on avatar complexity. Maybe this is a teachable moment.

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26 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

 log in on a low setting. You will find that SLINK and EBODY are visible; most others are not. 

As others have mentioned, we don't all get the same results on Low settings, because our computers and connections are different and that impacts things.  When you say that "others are not visible", do you mean they are jellydolls or just plain not there?  Jellydolls are specifically because of the complexity setting - and yes some of the mesh body have a higher complexity.  Some computers and connections can handle rendering higher complexity items super quickly - so again, it all comes down to many things that make up your rendering experience. 

 

28 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

 Lots of denial, opposition, and rationalization going on!

Why is it that if someone doesn't immediately agree with YOUR VIEW, then they much be in denial or rationalizing things?  

 

29 minutes ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

I have pointed out my observations and and ask you to put aside your biases and consider what I've said. 

Best I can tell, what you have said HAS been considered.  Disagreement with your viewpoint does not mean it has not been considered or that people are being any more biased than you are.

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1 hour ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

So you can see what meshes are visible in low, the ones who won't lag you. Then you can switch back. Try it. It's a very interesting experiment.

No you can't. The jellybean function is so broken for fitted mesh there is no real relation at all between which are jellybean'ed first and which are the laggiest.

That is one important reason why we don't compare fitted mesh for lag very much here. Yes, our criticism of poorly made content may be very harsh at times but we do actually try our best to stick to documented facts and ignore myths and bogus numbers like ARC.

There are two reasonably reliable ways to estimate the actual lag a peice of fitted mesh causes; you can count the triangles in the high LoD model or you can doa reality check and see how much it affects fps in-world. Even those methods only give rough indications though. They need to be subbstantiated by other test methods which sadly don't exist yet.

Edited by ChinRey
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1 hour ago, Eirynne Sieyes said:

So, I start again, more cleanly this time: 

In line with the myriad of recent discussion on how bloated SL has become, I would like to identify which heads and which bodies are well-made.  

I know little about mesh and Bento, but I can tell that two bodies that that load quickly are SLINK and EBODY. 

I will go further. Maitreya and Belleza, the two most popular meshes, load very slowly. 

 

Loading time doesn't necessarily correspond to viewer lag (i.e. framerate.) It's similar to how if your drain is clogged your neighbor can come over to help in two minutes but it will take them an hour to clear it, whereas it will take 20 minutes for a plumber to arrive but they can clear it in 15 minutes. There are a lot of variables in loading time, like what's in your cache and is on the content delivery server near you, and how much of the mesh geometry of the body is actually drawn at any given time. The old Belleza bodies had incredible numbers of polygons to download due to the multi-position hands/breasts but the viewer only rendered one of those options at a time.

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6 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Loading time doesn't necessarily correspond to viewer lag (i.e. framerate.)

That is another important factor to keep in mind.

We tend to talk about client side lag as one thing but it's really three: how long it takes to downlaod the asset, how much preprocessing the cpu has to do and how hard it is for the gpu to render.

Edited by ChinRey
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