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What the fitmesh LoD bug actually means

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Point proven.

What worries me is that, if no one at the Lab completely understands this topic, then it's entirely possible that they read this forum and see

  • well reasoned thoughts from seasoned professionals and others with at least some grasp on realtime 3D rendering and content creation, people who understand how badly made content affects the entire SL experience for everyone and yet also understand that you can't simply remove years and years of content or start dropping in restrictive caps willy-nilly or it will blow up in your face, offering alternatives and suggestions meant to bring the best result with the least disruption with a long term view in mind
  • nonsensical rants like the example Fionalein helpfully provides, people who either can't or won't understand the issues or the statements other people are making and just immediately assume the worst

 and can't distinguish between the two.

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9 hours ago, Fionalein said:

And that is your problem, Penny. No they don't. If you do movies FPS don't count, If you do 3D printing FPSs do not count in fact in all freakin 3D design applications outside gaming... FPSs do not count - resolution however does. Do not assume you know everything, because as you just showed you have no idea for what 3D design can be and is used for...

And your problem is your lack of contextual perspective view. The context is SL being a game environment, realtime 3D content is what is needed, a modeler coming from ANY type of production must be aware of this, instead of finding all possible ways to hack in their 3D printable/movie models.

If you make movies, FPS doesn't count (not true, otherwise there wouldn't be proxies and instances to improve performance during animation work, but anyway...) but render time does. If a scene is clunked with too many polygons it will take longer to render, and any production will have a scene reworked if frame render time exceeds an X amount of minutes because the delivery of a shot would take too long, even with their expensive (paid) render farms... costs just go up, as current trend in renderfarms is to pay by GHz/hour, meaning their net profit is being reduced as much as the render times go up.

Yeah 3D printing is the only department where FPS doesn't count, the higher resolution the better. It's all a matter of context.

It's easier that a modeler with game grade assets experience is taken to work in a movie production than the other way around, as it takes a lot of expertise to optimize a model for game standards... in a feature film such an artist will deliver better content and more quickly without those many game platforms restrictions, whereas a modeler from feature films will find a lot of difficulties to comply and therefore a lower chance to be hired in a game production.

Your point is totally out of place and context blind. If you advocate for that degree of freedom, you should take a look at movie skeletons, puke when looking back at the SL avatar's skeleton and start claiming twist joints on the forearms, shins and neck at the very least, then.

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On 9/6/2018 at 1:36 AM, Penny Patton said:

 LL needs an Art Director. Someone who can tell the software engineers how to deal with these problems, and when they say something needs to be done it is taken as gospel.

Not an attack, just a specification... the professional needed for this is a Technical Director. Art Directors are those that manage the visual feeling in a game and don't meddle in the technicalities involved. An Art Director makes sure that a game has a consistent look and art style, after their approval an asset goes towards the Tech Director for review in terms of usability within the engine. The tech Director is responsible for the polygon budget, how and when this polygon budget gets to be used, setting rules for the programmers to have a limit on resources during the game play (LoDs switching and accounting,ie: NPCs running off screen/into the culling area when polycount limit is triggered or forced LoD switching for distant objects, etc), how the animation engine/rigs have to work (state machines, deformability etc) and all related things. An asset can easily pass the Art Director inspection, but the Tech Director's word is gospel and a beautiful asset might undergo rework, if the TD says so. This is what LL needs, someone that establishes rules and limits for a smooth gameplay at runtime.

Edited by OptimoMaximo
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5 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Not an attack, just a specification...

No, you're absolutely right.

I was just thinking that LL needed an Art Director for other reasons (SL's presentation is atrocious) and that someone with that experience could also help give them perspective on the tools and other SL issues. But LL falls so far short of what they should be doing, in terms of hiring as well as development. I suppose what they really need is a someone who realizes they're game studio and starts asking "Hey, why are we lacking all these typical game studio positions?" and who knows enough about SL's shortcomings to fire the first person to say "SL is not a game!" or "We make the tools, not the content!" Because they also seriously need the people to develop proper new user sims and experiences, and develop tutorials for various aspects of SL.

 At the same time I realize, in LL's mind at least, SL is on its way out, but they also need to fill these positions for any future products similar to SL, including Sansar or they're going to run into many of the same exact problems.

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15 hours ago, Penny Patton said:
  • nonsensical rants like the example Fionalein helpfully provides, people who either can't or won't understand the issues or the statements other people are making and just immediately assume the worst

Seems to me she just misunderstood you a little bit, Penny.

At least, that's how I read her posts. If I understood her right (she may correct me there of course) what she really tried to say was something like:

18 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

What strikes me is that all of this is obvious to anyone with any 3D design experience outside of SL. Whether you're a student, professional, or a hobbyist that has been involved in game modding.

3D design experience outside of SL is not enough, it'll have to be experience with 3D design for dynamic environments.

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22 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Yes, SL would be better off with content optimized for gaming but not everyone in SL has a gaming background. At least accept the little fact that not every freakin 3D designer has to come from gaming... a lot don't, duh... a penny for your thoughts though (pun intended) as that might help me in understanding your little Jihad...

Then what the hell are they doing here instead of making MOVIES or 3D prints!

I'm not claiming that I'd do any good at either of those domains, why are they claiming they are in mine :P

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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12 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

"Hey, why are we lacking all these typical game studio positions?"

Try looking at the average salary for such a position, and you'll get an idea as per why they're not implementing it. Here in Europe, in a not triple A game studio, the monthly NET wage spans between 4-5K. These game studios sport yearly revenues far lower than LL's, and they work on projects that are not as massive, so figure what a TD or an AD demands would be, also compared to the amount of work they'd be called upon.

7 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

1) Then what the hell are they doing here instead of making MOVIES or 3D prints!

2) I'm not claiming that I'd do any good at either of those domains, 3) why are they claiming they are in mine

1) those aren't their own works, it's downloaded material in 99% of the cases, that is not even suitable for movies btw... they're cashing out off someone else's work

2) put a subsurf modifier at very high level on your stuff, generate a height map from your textures, put them into a displacement modifier and apply them all. Your stuff is going to be better than theirs.

3) because in their mind "it's all the same s**t" and there's no difference in production methods. Ignorance on both their side and customer's side, these latter rewarding the first part with sales, therefore it's a success (=being a pro)

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2 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Ignorance on both their side and customer's side, these latter rewarding the first part with sales, therefore it's a success (=being a pro)

All three sides, Mr. "me first and the gimme gimmes" ;) 

You must mave by now realized that your own crazy demand to run SL on Ultra in every place you visit at every time is nothing more than another egoistical entitlement problem. I wonder how It came to be that I'm here to indirectly defend bad designers now by trying to defend their customers. But making previously aquired content useless would be desastrous. Don't tell me you are not egoistical. You would rather risk a mass exodus and the final ruin of LL's cash cow than moving your own damn sliders... now tell me again who is the ignorant one.

So your and your little "Triumphirate of LOD doom" wants to remove/limit "poorly designed mesh" for the sake of a faster SL... You can already have this Optimo: buy your own region and write an orb to limit your visitors... or do your freakin own grid and leave us in peace. Lead by example. But you don't, instead you ramble on the forums we need some kind of mesh police to limit creators who do not do as you want...

I experience pretty much the same as you do, a lot of my friends like to collect SL cars and keep telling me this or that designer are great, I usually tell them "No they are not, because..."  and do you want to know what? They don't give a **** ... The difference between you and me is: you do not want them to be even able to do bad choices. You have a vision of how SL should be and completely seem to have forgotten who has the ultimate say in this place. SL is not your plattform, it belongs to LL. They decide what is allowed and what is not and if you are not happy with their decisions... feel free to leave!

PS: You three might have realized by now folks have stopped trying to argue with you because it's futile? If you want to know why I didn't quit arguing myself it is because even if you are lost causes someone might stumble on this thread and deserves to read both sides, ...

Edited by Fionalein
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40 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

PS: You three might have realized by now folks have stopped trying to argue with you because it's futile? If you want to know why I didn't quit arguing myself it is because even if you are lost causes someone might stumble on this thread and deserves to read both sides, ...

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't argue with them because either I largely agree with them or they've gotten into technical aspects I don't understand well enough. I do read their posts carefully and think about how I can use the information to improve my mesh work.

To be frank, the emotional attacks you're launching aren't making the case for your position. It does seem that your emotions are clouding your reading and it really comes down to a disagreement over an issue LL is unlikely to implement in a radical fashion.

Have a go at me too if it makes you feel better, but maybe then take some time away from this?

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28 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

You must mave by now realized that your own crazy demand to run SL on Ultra in every place you visit at every time is nothing more than another egoistical entitlement problem

I never said such a thing, this is your assumption. I never mentioned what graphics level i use, and my example about GPU overheat was only that, an example. Because i myself experience some heat up on GPU, like others do although at the level i described for no apparent reason, to discover the sad truth: moronic resource usage.

31 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

I experience pretty much the same as you do, a lot of my friends like to collect SL cars and keep telling me this or that designer are great, I usually tell them "No they are not, because..."  and do you want to know what? They don't give a **** ... The difference between you and me is: you do not want them to be even able to do bad choices.

The difference between you and me is another: leave people to do their choices, among a standardized and controlled environment that respects basic guidelines (the standard) in order to keep the platform healthy and in good working order, not to mention avoiding the upload and distribution of downloaded, inappropriate for the target platform content, which is fraudulent rip off of others' work and IP infringement for a quick buck, that you and your friends are supporting arms open. The bad choices of someone shouldn't affect others and that's what we all are advocating here.

 

42 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

You have a vision of how SL should be and completely seem to have forgotten who has the ultimate say in this place. SL is not your plattform, it belongs to LL. They decide what is allowed and what is not and if you are not happy with their decisions... feel free to leave!

As anyone else in this place, i have the right to voice my opinion, so you are the one that should feel free to leave and stop your nonsensical ranting against my/our points. If we don't out our voices, LL would never know, and as you say, it's up to them to decide, not up to you to try and silence us, just in case someone at LL finds these considerations and takes on what is described here as necessary: who's the one that tries to enforce their vision of SL, now? You. Here we all are giving out well reasoned thoughts and suggestions to keep SL running for other 15 years, instead of letting it go down the sink within a shorter time because of its ever growing performance issues. Which, in LL's ears, should sound like more revenue for a more extended period of time. Your argumentation leads to a SL shorter life span, ours to a longer one.

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2 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

leave people to do their choices, among a standardized and controlled environment that respects basic guidelines (the standard) in order to keep the platform healthy and in good working order

Yeah, the  "SL North Korea edition" basically. With guidelines and standards being set way so only the "chosen few" would be able to make something actually usable. SL was and is the platform with user created content and most of those users just doing it for fun in their free time, even if they sell it within SL. You can't and shouldn't expect high levels of skills and lots of free time from such people. Although perhaps you see it as a good thing, "only good creators will stay", but from a consumer point of view, the less choice there is (in scenario where only super quality and well made content will be usable due to high standards), the more boring it'll get, less things to buy, less money to spend on SL, less money for LL.

 

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but it's true for the other people, too. And for me, SL is quite healthy as it is. Now there are some extremes here and there (looking at you, fancy ~900k triangles shelf that I wanted to get before seeing that number), but overall it's good enough for me and people I hang out with.

Also no clue which GPU you're using, but mine stays in passive cooling mode with 20 to 40% usage most of the time on mix of high and ultra settings (not a big fan of shadows in SL, so they are off for the most scenes). If anything the CPU usage is the issue, due to it being mostly single threaded. No idea if this can be solved by writing a completely new viewer from sratch or not, though.

 

And yep, we'll voice our opinions as well. SL is fine and in way better state performance wise than it was when I joined in 2012. Will it lasts for another 15 years? Hard to tell, but I'm quite sure that forcing hard limits on what people can wear/use is not going to help it at all.

Oh and for possible reply with "But hard limits already exist.", like was one from before about animesh. Yep, they do. But I think it was 2016 when LL made it possible to upgrade private regions to 30k LI from the usual 20k? Was it much of a shock for some people? "How horrible, now people can have 50% more of terrible unoptimized content." And I believe the LI calculation formula change LL are working on also had some lindens (Oz Linden I believe) saying about a possible LI increase, because they want us to have more stuff, not less.

And the last, but not least. While I love SL and spend great deal of time and money on it, I also don't agree that business should be only about short lifespan vs longer one. There are some mmorpgs that were around for nearly 2 decades, some of them only have 1-2 servers left and average just a couple thousands of people online during prime hours. Obviously they are profitable, otherwise they'd be closed already, but with such numbers it would take them many years to make even fraction of profit that big games make monthly. So benefits of longer lifespan are often questionable.

Edited by steeljane42
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9 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Yeah, the  "SL North Korea edition" basically. With guidelines and standards being set way so only the "chosen few" would be able to make something actually usable.

It's been explained multiple times how this couldn't be further from the truth. Any suggestion of resource caps has been paired with an understanding that such caps cannot be implemented in such a way that they disrupt the userbase in the ways you describe. It has been demonstrated time and again that requiring optimization would not prevent any current content creators from continuing to create content. If you know how to make content, then you have all the skills you need to optimize that content.

11 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but it's true for the other people, too.

But you're not entitled to make up your own fiction and present it as fact.

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14 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

If you know how to make content, then you have all the skills you need to optimize that content.

Absolutely.

39 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

You can't and shouldn't expect high levels of skills and lots of free time from such people.

 

I think you ought to give creators a bit more credit than that. Sure, there's a learning curve to optimising content, but it's not *that* steep. Besides, it's not like anyone is expecting perfection.

Unfortunately, we don't have clear guidelines on what's acceptable in terms of number of triangles, texture size etc, or what percentage of LOD degradation to aim for, so the main measure of quality is "does it look good?". And by and large, it does! We've got some seriously skilled content creators in SL, and I'm including hobbyists in that. I trust that they'll be able to optimise content if we ever get better guidelines than just land impact (which is so easy to game it's not even funny).

 

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35 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

It's been explained multiple times how this couldn't be further from the truth. Any suggestion of resource caps has been paired with an understanding that such caps cannot be implemented in such a way that they disrupt the userbase in the ways you describe. It has been demonstrated time and again that requiring optimization would not prevent any current content creators from continuing to create content. If you know how to make content, then you have all the skills you need to optimize that content

If you'll read some suggestions here and in similar threads you'll see that some of those people suggest a hardcap for complexity and what not. If that won't disrupt the userbase, then I don't know what will. And having skills is not even relevant, how much more time will it take is. Same deal as with fitmesh clothes and why some very skilled designers just choose to ignore all, but 1-3 big brands. It's fun hobby to create something for SL in free time for a lot of people, sitting and trying to optimize it (or rig to 20 bodies in example from before) is not fun and not profitable, in case if it's a medium-big brand and actually makes money.

I've seen lots of people already complained how "that awful mesh" stole the magic from SL and how it was fun to make things withing SL. Which I don't really agree with, since I much prefer mesh *everything* to non mesh, but it has a point. Pushing people to learn how to optimize everything for SL via hardcaps will make it so some people just won't bother. I'm all for good content, too, and ever since FS got tools to check triangles, vram etc, I do so before shopping and I didn't bought quite a few of actually terrible optimized things, like that 900k triangles shelf I mentioned earlier, but if something is really heavy and yet I feel like I want it anyway, I'll get it. That's the difference between encouraging good/quality/optimized content and just banning it, like some people suggest with limits for max complexity.

 

45 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

But you're not entitled to make up your own fiction and present it as fact.

Just like people who say "SL is dying because of an optimized content" and "SL melts my GPU", yeah? There's a lot of that in this thread, all fiction pretty much.

23 minutes ago, Raindrop Drinkwater said:

I think you ought to give creators a bit more credit than that. Sure, there's a learning curve to optimising content, but it's not *that* steep.

Perhaps. But when SL is just a fun way to pass time for someone. then "not that" steep learning curve might be just enough to push them away from creating anything for SL at all. Will there be tons of new (and maybe more skilled/determinated) creators to take their place considering the SL's age? I'd say probably not, SL has a fair share of problems and enough of other reasons to discourage content makers from even trying to start doing something here.

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2 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Also no clue which GPU you're using, but mine stays in passive cooling mode with 20 to 40% usage most of the time on mix of high and ultra settings

Are you even able to read? I didn't say it happens, it was a case scenario, an EXAMPLE

On 8/23/2018 at 9:55 AM, OptimoMaximo said:

if you stand in a region while you're within my view range when i sit in MY region, and YOU bring up my GPU temperature over 80 Celsius (and it's not a low end one), YOU are the problem, not my GPU

Can you read? It begins with an IF: It's a user case in which, oh apologies for that, i used the first person because it was all about "first lady" talk. "you don't get to tell ME what to wear in MY region" and i went on about YOU being the problem for ME (general user) because a not low end GPU can't suddenly go to 80 celsius whenever YOU get within view. Do you grasp the concept of an EXAMPLE? Or do I have to take a screenshot of me logged in, graphics settings being shown along with GPU meter visible to show you that my GPU stays at 65 celsius and heats up a little in presence of the crap content you so much defend?? If it doesn't happen to you or me it doesn't mean it's not happening to others though, and i'm referring to issues i was asked about, involving not bad GPUs that go to 80 celsius when some content, whether attached to avatars or not, pops in their view. 

You lack so much understanding in the topic at hand that you read what you want to read totally out of context, and not being able to understand, makes you panic and start disconnecting from facts or warping meanings to your nonsensical point's advantage. So i'm done with you, keep babbling your nonsense and let us be. Hopefully LL reads some of this and considers taking some action.

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6 hours ago, Fionalein said:

You must mave by now realized that your own crazy demand to run SL on Ultra in every place you visit at every time is nothing more than another egoistical entitlement problem

Same goes for you, both your own sentence and what i posted just above

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2 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

If you'll read some suggestions here and in similar threads you'll see that some of those people suggest a hardcap for complexity and what not. If that won't disrupt the userbase, then I don't know what will.

You're absolutely right. You don't know. If you read a little more carefully, the suggestions of a hard cap on complexity are paired with suggestions on how to do this without the disruption you're worried about. I'm not going to repeat it yet again, it's all right here in the thread.

2 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Pushing people to learn how to optimize everything for SL via hardcaps will make it so some people just won't bother.

Once again, for those who have trouble keeping up:

IF YOU KNOW HOW TO CREATE CONTENT, YOU HAVE ALL THE SKILLS YOU NEED TO OPTIMIZE THAT CONTENT.

 The only "content creators" who would be negatively affected by the types of limits being suggested are those who don't actually create the content they sell. The ones who rip, steal or purchase ready made 3D assets and then pawn them off in SL as their own work. THAT is who you're going to bat for here. Those who actually make content, whether if it's a business to them or just for fun, will be fine.

2 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Just like people who say "SL is dying because of an optimized content" and "SL melts my GPU", yeah? There's a lot of that in this thread, all fiction pretty much.

Have you never looked outside the tiny bubble that is the SL userbase and seen what everyone else says about SL? Have you never talked to anyone who wouldn't give SL a chance? Or anyone who did try SL but wound up leaving it behind? If you truly believe that SL's poor performance and excessive hardware requirements to run at higher graphics settings have had no impact on it's ability to draw in and retain new users, you're beyond hopeless. 

And let's be absolutely clear, take a look at all of the arguments made against optimization. How many of them include statements like "I think SL is just fine" or "If you want higher framerates then you're acting entitled". These arguments can be boiled down to them saying "Your experience doesn't matter, I should be able to do whatever I want regardless of how it affects everyone else."

 

 

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1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

Once again, for those who have trouble keeping up:

IF YOU KNOW HOW TO CREATE CONTENT, YOU HAVE ALL THE SKILLS YOU NEED TO OPTIMIZE THAT CONTENT.

... they say that when yelling becomes a major part of your argumentation, you already know deep inside that you are actualy wrong yourself :P

1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

These arguments can be boiled down to them saying "Your experience doesn't matter, I should be able to do whatever I want regardless of how it affects everyone else."

... which is can be said of your and optimo's arguments as well, ... welcome to the world of grown ups (you brought that up, remember?), where your arguments can be used against you if they contradict your own ideas...

Btw., how many threads have you already poisoned with those ideas? Please stick to one instead of abducting every thread you seem fitting for your agenda...

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28 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

... they say that when yelling becomes a major part of your argumentation, you already know deep inside that you are actualy wrong yourself

You are now claiming that content creators who already create mesh content don't know how to create mesh content and so will be pushed out of SL. You are arguing that they don't know how to use the tools that they know how to use. That is what you are saying. This is what you have been reduced to. 

Fine. Here is a mockup of an unoptimized use of textures in SL:

bad+texture+wrapping.jpg

All of that black space is unused on the mesh object.

Now, in Blender when you UV unwrap a mesh, you can grab the visible area and resize it, so it would take up the entire texture, then make the texture itself smaller so that the visible area is the same exact size, but the file is much, much smaller.

To texture the model in the first place one needs to know how to create that UV map. So they already know everything they need to know to get rid of the unused space. They just don't because they don't know why it's important to do that.

Alternately, to give an object multiple faces (ie: using different textures) actually requires more work than simply using a single face with one texture wrapped around the entire object as you have to create the additional faces and texture them separately. So, using the exact same skills described above one could simply place all of the details of the object into a single texture, like so:

good+texture+wrapping.jpg

The only additional skills one might possibly need to learn is that they can select those texture faces and move them around the map. That's not hard to learn. If you already know how to select and move around pieces of a mesh model in Blender, then you know how to do the same in the UV window. That's only if they simply let the software do the unwrapping automatically. Beyond that, all one needs to know is that they should be conserving memory by using fewer/smaller textures. How to do that without losing detail becomes obvious. There's all that empty space in the texture, use it by combining them! No detail lost, much more efficient model. One texture instead of a dozen. Higher framerates for everyone and it loads much faster to boot! In other cases, one will need to know where they can sacrifice detail in ways that no one will notice, because the detail is hidden or too small to see anyway. All one needs to learn is a bit of judgement. There is some skill involved, but nothing really beyond what the creator already knows.

You, without any explanation, are claiming all of the above is incorrect. I'm not certain if you are claiming that a need for optimization would suddenly cause content creators to spontaneously experience amnesia, or if you're implying there are secret steps, that only those chosen few in the cabal of optimization conspiracists you imagine us to be, hold the secret knowledge to unlocking.

So, enlighten us. I've given you an example to work with. Explain where the additional excess of difficulty that will cause the doom of SL comes from. This is your chance to show that you are not completely making things up as you go along!

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I've literally seen content in SL where the creator used a bunch of identical but separate textures across a model. Where you could take just one of those textures, use it in place of all the others, and cut like 100MB from the item's memory use.

Fionapplebum: Are you saying that the people who made those mesh models are unable to look at those textures and see that they're identical? Or are you saying that they know how to apply all of those textures to all of the difference faces, but would be paralyzed with confusion if challenged to apply just one texture to all of those faces?

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1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

 Fionapplebum: Are you saying that the people who made those mesh models are unable to look at those textures and see that they're identical? Or are you saying that they know how to apply all of those textures to all of the difference faces, but would be paralyzed with confusion if challenged to apply just one texture to all of those faces?

Behind what stone have you been hiding the last years? You apparently have missed out a big part of how SL mesh fasion works... yes the faces might all have the same texture in the single colour item. But the single colour items are just a byproduct of the fatpack where you can flip happily around  the texture on each face... "I want the seam of the pink one and the laces of teh white one and the main fabrik of the blue one..."

Using one texture for all faces is actually a step forward, they could have used 1024^2 for each face... (and no just because 4 faces have one and the same texture does not mean it's 4 times in your memory, if you really fear that)

PS: and now stop calling me names...

Edited by Fionalein

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8 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Yeah, the  "SL North Korea edition" basically. With guidelines and standards being set way so only the "chosen few" would be able to make something actually usable. SL was and is the platform with user created content and most of those users just doing it for fun in their free time, even if they sell it within SL. You can't and shouldn't expect high levels of skills and lots of free time from such people. Although perhaps you see it as a good thing, "only good creators will stay", but from a consumer point of view, the less choice there is (in scenario where only super quality and well made content will be usable due to high standards), the more boring it'll get, less things to buy, less money to spend on SL, less money for LL.

Do you believe that in the real world, emission requirements are killing the automotive business and that we would be much better off with less of those pesky rules and regulations that ensure that we don't turn the environment we live in into a radiated wasteland?

"What do you mean the smog is killing you? Don't breathe, it's that simple!"

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9 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

PS: and now stop calling me names...

Dunno about “Fiona Apple”, but if you’ve got an “apple bum”, that’s hot.

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1 minute ago, Fionalein said:

Behind what stone have you been hiding the last years? You apparently have missed out a big part of how SL mesh fasion works... yes the faces might all have the same texture in the single colour item. But the single colour items are just a byproduct of the fatpack where you can flip happily around  the texture on each face... "I want the seam of the pink one and the laces of teh white one and the main fabrik of the blue one..."

In this example you give, yes, using multiple faces to display different colour variants of the same texture is an issue, but not a terribly bad one as long as you don't get too excessive with it and the textures themselves are well optimized. As I've repeatedly said, I'm not expecting SL content to be up to professional game artist standards. I just think LL should do what they can to curb the worst habits.

But you haven't answered any of my questions, or addressed the example I gave. You claimed that content creators who know how to work with mesh creation tools will not know how to work with mesh creation tools if any restrictions, whatsoever, are placed on content resource use. You've yet to explain any reasoning behind this. We're waiting.

6 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

(and no just because 4 faces have one and the same texture does not mean it's 4 times in your memory, if you really fear that)

No one claimed any such thing. You're creating yet another straw man. I gave you an example you could use to explain your argument about how any sort of optimization is too much for mesh content creators. You have yet to offer any reasoning. Where is your argument? You keep telling all of us that know what we're talking about that we're "wrong" but have yet to offer a single explanation as to why that wasn't a straw man like this.

We've explained our points in detail. All you've done in return is offer baseless accusations, straw men, and nonsensical rants, laced with petty insults and hyperbole, and repeating the same, tired old lines that have been debunked every single time. Even when given a specific example directly to the point of your argument you could not respond with a rational point to explain yourself, instead trying to change the subject. We are still waiting for you to give us anything resembling a coherent argument to back up your claims.

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