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4 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

On top of that, somebody on The Other Forum That Must Not Be Named thought he found some serious LoD issues for some details. It may  have been a render failure - I didn't see it myself and it's not a mistake the Moles usually make - but if it isn't, we're talking about an environment for LoD factor 4 here.

Agree that they are too heavy for my taste but I tested the houses down to LOD 0 and at long distances and they held up well in the visual department -- for me anyway. Other posts on this thread suggest that is the norm.    

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Agree that they are too heavy for my taste but I tested the houses down to LOD 0 and at long distances and they held up well in the visual department -- for me anyway. Other posts on this thread suggest that is the norm.    

Yes, I didn't see any LoD issues either and Lod factor 0 means that everything is rendered at lowest LoD. The post I referred to only showed one item with LoD issues (the balcony railing of one of the houses) and it may be an upload accident for just that single mesh. If so, it should be easy enough to fix.

Edit: turns out the guy who posted at the other forum had managed to wander off onto another sim without noticing. The dodgy LoD was on one of the houses in the regular exhibition and nothing to do with the SSP preview at all. ;)

The lag issue is trickier though. Each of these houses has about 60 1024x1024 textures and of course all the houses have different textures. That's crazy of course and it's only one of the many issues that cause render lag there.

Edited by ChinRey
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Posted (edited)

Hey!

On edit:  We were confused at first by the numbers that were showing in the FS tool, but we just figured it out!

Traditional Continental  : 30 Textures
Traditional Winchester  : 32 Textures
Traditional Alderley        : 29 Textures
Traditional Adams          : 29 Textures

Houseboat 1 : 19 Textures
Houseboat 2 : 27 Textures
Houseboat 3 : 22 Textures
Houseboat 4 : 14 Textures

The number does show higher because of the specular and normal maps.

All the Traditional Houses also share the same Door, Control Panel, Blinds, Floor, Ceiling and Window Textures.

Edited by Ancient Mole
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ancient Mole said:

The number does show higher because of the specular and normal maps.

They take up VRAM too, remember.

I really, really hope you're not going to force Linden Home owners to move to SSP and that you'll even allow them to move back if they find the lag too high for them. If you don't you risk loosing lots of premium members. As I said, the way it is now, SSP is only for people with top of the range graphics/game computer. Even a "normal" game computer with 4GB VRAM (which is what 65% of Steam users have according to the stats) will struggle. As for people with regular computers, just forget it.

One test you should do, is fill the houses of an SSP sim with the kind of furniture peopel are likely to add and the garden with the kind of plants and other garden items they are likely to use. The log on four or five mesh avatars on Powerbooks or similar and see what kidn of performance you get.

---

Ancient, I do not want to offend you or the rest of the LDPW people but you have to learn how to optimize mesh and textures! Not for the sake of me or the other power users, we know how to avoid the too laggy parts of SL. But for all the others? Imagine a regular guy or gal who wants to give SL a try and logs on with their regular computer using the default viewer settings. How likely is it that they ever come back when the frame rate they get is so low it might as well be still pictures? That demo sim could easily have been built at a quarter of the client side load with no noticeable changes to its appearance and that's what you have to aim for.

Over-strenghtened LoD models do not solve the LoD factor problem. What they effectively do, is hardwire a bloated LoD factor into the meshes themselves so that there is no way to avoid it. LoD problems are solved by removing every single triangle and vertice that isn't needed for each model and keeping every single triangle and vertice that is needed. Advanced LoD optimisation for SL takes a lot of experience and technical and artistic skills but the basics are quite simple, anybody who knows how to handle 3D modelling software at all can do that.

As for textures, I couldn't examine the SSP houses in detail of course, all I can say for sure is that 30 textures for a mid sized, moderately complex house is too much, especially when most of them seem to be 1024s. I did have a closer look at the cabin that was the latest premium gift and there's a tremendous waste of texture space there, lots of 1024s with vast areas of black unused pixels interspersed with a few small islands of actual texture. Most of the not-really-baked 1024s of that particualr house could easily have been done with lower resolution tiled textures too.

Here are some numbers worth taking into account: Until very recently 1 GB VRAM was fairly standard for computers and you can expect that's what lots of SL users still have. 2 GB seems to be the norm today. Game computers may well have 4 GB. Once the gpu runs out of VRAM, it has to start using slower regular RAM to store the textures instead and that causes a significant performance drop. 1 GB, that's 250 1024x1024 textures or 1000 512x512's. The texture count is for everything in the scene, every single texture, normal map and specular map used on every single item and avatar within the draw distance.

I don't expect to get any replies to this from anybody at LDPW, but I do hope you read it and learn from it. I also know you don't want any help from outsiders, I've been told that already. You want to figure it out yourself. That's fair enough but please do figure it out.

You can't do much about the vast amount of laggy meshes and textures from independent merchants of course. It would take good documentation and tutorials to start fixing that problem and that's hardly LDPW's responsibility (although it is LL's). But what you can do, is show a good example for others to follow. Are you willing to give it a try and are you up to the task?

Edited by ChinRey
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9 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Here are some numbers worth taking into account: Until very recently 1 GB VRAM was fairly standard for computers and you can expect that's what lots of SL users still have. 2 GB seems to be the norm today. Game computers may well have 4 GB. Once the gpu runs out of VRAM, it has to start using slower regular RAM to store the textures instead and that causes a significant performance drop. 1 GB, that's 250 1024x1024 textures or 1000 512x512's. The texture count is for everything in the scene, every single texture, normal map and specular map used on every single item and avatar within the draw distance

Also remember that the Linden Lab viewer has a 512MB maximum texture memory. Pretty much every 64bit TPV allows a higher texture memory.
Once that 512MB texture memory is filled, textures will start to thrash & constantly go blurry, sharp, blurry, sharp as the textures are swapped in & out of memory.

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22 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Also remember that the Linden Lab viewer has a 512MB maximum texture memory. Pretty much every 64bit TPV allows a higher texture memory.
Once that 512MB texture memory is filled, textures will start to thrash & constantly go blurry, sharp, blurry, sharp as the textures are swapped in & out of memory.

Solution is short draw distance?

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I have a pretty nice machine. It's old now .. coming up on five years, but I bought a good one so it's lasted. But it's certainly not a high powered machine by today's standards. I'm getting good results at the preview region. Textures load in quickly. I don't have lag issues except if someone lands in the region right next to me and I have to rez that person. But even with that it's quick and the hit is short lived. 

performance.thumb.jpg.984a0007b473d2cd8f60841fecab0452.jpg

You can check my fps in the upper right hand corner. You can also see that I have my graphics set pretty high. I get that those who try to run SL on a tablet or low powered laptop are going to have issues but should we throttle the appearance of SL for everyone based on those who use machines that are inadequate? I hope not.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Solution is short draw distance?

No. As far as I know, it's not possible to set the draw distance lower than 32 m and that would be way too much if the VRAM limit actually is 512 MB. 8 m draw distance should do.

 

30 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

You can check my fps in the upper right hand corner.

24.5 fps is low, most people will notice jaggedness at that frame rate. Of course, it depends a bit on your age - the older we get, the slower everything is. ;)

But this is right in front of an empty house: Turn arund and look at a wider scene and you're likely to get a much lower fps. Or try to add some furniture inside the hosue and some nice little garden fatures around it.

Also, half your screen are covered with stats window. I know you need those to show the figures, but what frame rate do you get with those closed?

 

30 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

but should we throttle the appearance of SL for everyone based on those who use machines that are inadequate?

https://secondlife.com/my/support/system-requirements/

Edited by ChinRey
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It's pretty impossible to measure performance on that test Linden homes parcel, with all the Resident made stuff for the expo in close proximity.
We'll need to wait for the SSP regions to open to do any meaningful tests.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

We'll need to wait for the SSP regions to open to do any meaningful tests.

I suppose LL has done reality check tests similar to the one I suggested. So maybe Patch or somebody else from LDPW could give us the result from those?

Edit (comment to CoffeDujour's reaction): I'm serious. I do take it for granted that LDPW has done realistic load tests - or at least that they are planning to do it before they launch SSP. Anything else would be gross incompetence. And it would actually be grat if they could tell us a bti about how those tests went.

Edited by ChinRey
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It's going to be fairly trivial for one person to totally consume all their neighbors vram just by rezzing regular furniture and decorative gacha tat.

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1 minute ago, CoffeeDujour said:

It's going to be fairly trivial for one person to totally consume all their neighbors vram just by rezzing regular furniture and decorative gacha tat.

Oh yes, that too. ;)

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13 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

It's going to be fairly trivial for one person to totally consume all their neighbors vram just by rezzing regular furniture and decorative gacha tat.

That problem happens all over the grid though.  It's not going to be specific to the new Linden homes  ;)
But I get your point, having been in Kitty's house  :D

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Posted (edited)

This is why we have derender and blacklist :D.   

 

EDIT: AND almost empty building pads 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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Just now, Chic Aeon said:

This is why we have derender and blacklist :D.   

Yes, but not every viewer has those features :(

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1 minute ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Yes, but not every viewer has those features :(

Which is way so MANY of us use the viewers that DO!

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This is not 100% on topic, but... The reason I wasn't premium before, was that the Houses was ugly and the free land too small. The doubling to 1024 suddenly made it worth it.

We are very diverse users. Some swear by Mainland. Some by estates. Some need access to water and a boat out permanently. Some never live on the ground, only in skyboxes. Some like small-town USA, some need to build a post-apocalyptic world.

With the new Houses being attractive, it is like I got a prim bonus to spend. Since the house and landscaping does not count.

And so many has asked for rules for skyboxes on Mainland. Maybe LL finally could make Mainland 2.0 with a 2000 m limit for skyboxes? And one of the unattractive things on Mainland is the vast, empty patches of abandoned land. Maybe Mainland 2.0 could have some more unpopulated ground around the parcels, with landscaping.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

24.5 fps is low, most people will notice jaggedness at that frame rate. Of course, it depends a bit on your age - the older we get, the slower everything is. ;)

But this is right in front of an empty house: Turn arund and look at a wider scene and you're likely to get a much lower fps. Or try to add some furniture inside the hosue and some nice little garden fatures around it.

Also, half your screen are covered with stats window. I know you need those to show the figures, but what frame rate do you get with those closed?

I throttle my fps at 30 anyway. 25 has never been an issue for me. 

fps didn't seem to change regardless probably because I keep my view distance at 80. I agree that having furniture in the houses will make a difference and if so I'll lower my view distance to 32 if it's an issue. To give a bit of a perspective, I flew over to the region with all the cars rezzed to the west of the homes and my fps dropped to 5 nearly immediately and did not come back up much even standing around waiting for things to rez and stabilize.

I was going to log in and show you my fps without screens open and facing down the street and not at the house, but there seems to be a logging in issue right now. I can't log Debi in at all. I managed to log on Blush but I kept getting error messages about not being able to rez an item so she's naked. So when things are back to normal I'll log in and show you.

Edited by Blush Bravin

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Posted (edited)

I did a slightly scientific test wondering if the SIMS themseleves might have something to do with the framerates. Apparently not.

Here's what I did. I went to the CENTER of the Linden Home display sim which set me on a walkway between the houses and the houseboats. I turned TOWARD the houses (well we already know the other direction gives better FPS).  I had 16 fps at my typical, high-ultra setting with 120 meters and LOD2 and shadows and ambient occlusion on.   I then flew up to 3000 meters which is where my building pad is on LEA6.  I had between 85-96 FPS there (bouncing a lot for whatever reason).

In comparison, my building pad FPS is around 77FPS now (it used to be much more everywhere but even though my texture issues are back to the recent norm, I am no longer seeing 200FPS up on my building pad like I use to). I see a long thread about others having issues but haven't read it. Whatever ---- 77FPS LEA6 (just now on the EEP server)    85-96 at 3000 meters above the demo houses.   

16fps looking at the back of the houses and flora at the preview sim.

And here is a screenshot on the ground at LEA6.  No settings were changed. Almost 42FPS

image.thumb.png.a716ee1e31d56e74c0db2e00506d3d93.png

Edited by Chic Aeon
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Posted (edited)

@ChinRey Okay back in and all is well. I think it was probably my connection pooping out on me. 

performance2.thumb.jpg.cd162b9ee7819b8cf3b4fbbd02fb07e0.jpg

Edited by Blush Bravin

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It's not an actual test, but anecdotally I can tell you that when working in the SSP regions I have my viewer set to maximum (shadows, detail, draw distance... everything) with my viewer window stretched across 3 monitors and I am able to fly around and work with decent framerates and no noticeable lag. If I try to do that anywhere else, my system practically freezes to a crawl. 

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3 minutes ago, Abnor Mole said:

It's not an actual test, but anecdotally I can tell you that when working in the SSP regions I have my viewer set to maximum (shadows, detail, draw distance... everything) with my viewer window stretched across 3 monitors and I am able to fly around and work with decent framerates and no noticeable lag. If I try to do that anywhere else, my system practically freezes to a crawl. 

Note that I wasn't saying anything about the SSP regions. We are talking about he preview regions at Home Expo.  I of course have no way of getting INTO the SSP regions.   I am not doubting that SSP  works well for you. I am also wondering (I am sure someone will ask if I don't) exactly what your system specs are. Likely higher than the average SL citizen? Maybe not. 

"Anecdotal" works for me. Others can do their own tests. I did TRY to keep everything as close to the same as possible. Didn't mean to offend. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Note that I wasn't saying anything about the SSP regions. We are talking about he preview regions at Home Expo.  I of course have no way of getting INTO the SSP regions.   I am not doubting that SSP  works well for you. I am also wondering (I am sure someone will ask if I don't) exactly what your system specs are. Likely higher than the average SL citizen? Maybe not. 

"Anecdotal" works for me. Others can do their own tests. I did TRY to keep everything as close to the same as possible. Didn't mean to offend. 

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700K CPU @ 4.00GHz (4008 MHz)
Memory: 32731 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit (Build 17134)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 1070/PCIe/SSE2

Window size: 5754x1048
Font Size Adjustment: 96pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 512m
Bandwidth: 2400kbit/s
LOD factor: 2
Render quality: 6 / 7
Advanced Lighting Model: Enabled
Texture memory: 512MB

Edited by Abnor Mole
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Ok, here is the demo region at the expo:

0bbb053514fd69aed621f64d59efcf2f.jpg

Here is the same region as best I could line up camera angle, etc.

ff3e69b285eccb0af2c68f9a9f7e1d86.jpg

As you can see from my everyday operating settings, there is quite a difference in performance I can measurably see.  

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