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Elinah Iredell

Second Life should have a way to return unwanted items

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On 8/29/2018 at 4:27 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

It is becoming an American thing. The original impetus for this thinking is probably just human nature. We first saw it effectively mobilised and used in Italy and Germany pre-WWII in the form of the then newly idealised Nationalist Socialism, the then new way to sell socialism. In America less and less history is taught. The result is the new label for socialism is Democratic Socialism and young Americans are clueless as to where it is going. For it to appeal to people they have to be taught to expect others to take care of them and think they are entitled to whatever. That movement has been being built for decades. Now it is taking its next steps as more people think socialism is a good thing. We see the primitive or day-to-day results as people blaming others and wanting others to do for them...

Only that part of the world that has a significant level of affluence suffers this curse. So, most of the Western world.

As a retired art and history teacher, I couldn't agree with you more. History has been streamlined, or completely cut, as more and more content has been added to the curriculum. The argument was teach the students how to find the information rather than teach the information. Unfortunately, students rarely seek out history on their own. Teachers have to make it relevant to the student in order to cultivate the interest. This single thing alone I think is going to have the biggest impact on our futures. You can't know how to shape the future if you don't understand the past.

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I once bought something, and it ended up NOT being what I thought it was...totally my bad, I probably read it wrong, I dunno, but entirely possible. Anyway, it never occurred to me to even suggest that I should be able to return it, because, again "my bad" lol. It wasn't expensive, but even if it had been (and I have bought things that were which later turned out to not be what I had anticipated through no fault of my own), it wouldn't have occurred to me to even desire to return it, much less actually return it.  Anyway..fast forward about a year, I was helping a bunch of people with something on a random sim for a charity event, and I yanked that thing out again, while I was rezzing a bunch of "wth IS this anyway?" stuff. Yanked it out and went "oh, I forgot about that, that's not what I'm looking for, why did I even keep it?", popped it back into inventory. Turns out, its creator was right there, lmao. I mean I couldn't have returned it to her even if I wanted to, because..perms. But she paid me the money for it with an im of "I am so sorry you bought one of those, I have no damn idea what I was even doing with that thing, I never should've sold it to begin with", or something to that effect. It was a funny discussion, and we've been friends ever since.

But, that was my long winded way of saying, most of those "in rl we can return things" things don't apply to sl, for good reason...aside from perms functionality, and that is..buyer's remorse is a BIG thing(rl or sl), and shouldn't be placed on the shoulders of creators when we flub up as customers. 

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On 8/20/2018 at 1:30 PM, Elinah Iredell said:

 

A return policy from the seller would show they believe in the product being sold and stand behind it. I like that, if not maybe second life can get involved? I will ask about it . Now just have to figure out how to file a " jira" .

I as seller agree on that with the clausole that any unwanted item will be returned and removed from inventory and world and that LL % gets refunded to the seller as well.

This should last for 14 days or a week time so to give time also for contacts to happen.

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On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 9:06 AM, Naiman Broome said:

I as seller agree on that with the clausole that any unwanted item will be returned and removed from inventory and world and that LL % gets refunded to the seller as well.

This should last for 14 days or a week time so to give time also for contacts to happen.

Could be nice if the return period was lessened to a day or 2, although I doubt this will ever happen in SL due to difficulties and cost in implementation.

If it did however, and with an extended return period of a week or 2, I imagine more than a few shoppers would buy the item to use for the short period they actually only wanted it for,  and then return it get their money back.  I've known people who change their house in SL every 3 days! lol

Kind of reminds me of those RL shoppers who buy an expensive dress to wear to a party and then return it the next day...

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This shouldn't be hard to implement and would be really helpful. I have a full perm item store and sometimes people buy something by mistake, I can't really refund it, because there's no way for me to know it that customer have deleted the item.

But by assigning some sort of an unique ID to particular instance to specific item it would be possible to wipe it of the servers, even if that person transfered that item to someone esle. This could be abused by some people that would try to resell the item and then would try to get a refund for it, so there should be a warning stating that if an item is still returnable it might get deleted or something like that.

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I can see too many cases where this would go horribly wrong. A full perms item that's already been transferred to another person is one of these. Anything that stops copy items being immediately copied is another. This would basically make everyone wait to use their new items, just in case they might want a refund. It would be hard to implement without it impacting the people who didn't want refunds, which is the majority.

I'm not against refunds when an item has an issue or wasn't what the customer thought, but I'd rather the customer contacted me and I gave the refund. That way it doesn't cause any issues for anyone who didn't want a refund. The problem is more a social one, in that Second Life has developed an anti-refund culture, which means a lot of merchants refuse to give them in any circumstance. That's something I would like to see changed. A merchant can obviously use some discretion if it looks shady, but I've only had to refund because someone hated it a few times in some years. Most customers aren't looking to scam.

To see what I mean about the automatic system, don't think about that time you bought something and it was terrible. Think about all the things you bought that were great. Imagine not really being able to use them properly until the refund timeout. There would be more than a few complaints on the forum if that happened.

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@Elina Iredell

what you would like to have is technically doable. The question for LL is how much resources they would have to put toward it

technically: bake-on-mesh + experience temp attach/rez is the basis for a system-enabled pre-purchase approval system. With bake on mesh the creator seller doesn't even have to make a demo version. The system would bake a "DEMO" texture overlay

how to pay for pre-approval items: In inventory right-click on the item and Pay. The payment goes to the Last Owner - which in this case is the creator seller

having said this. What we have done is moved 1 component of your issue. The issue of how to get our money back when mistakenly buy something we never mean' too. There is no realistic way around this in any situation other than the refund policy of the shop keeper - same RL same SL

it does tho solve the issue of incomplete or not-as-advertised products

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Regarding the "I bought the item not knowing the hud or huds were only for the fatpack."

I've had that happen too.  I figured it was a learning experience.   What else could I do?  It was my mistake.  I was sleepy and should have waited until the morning.  I'm not saying it was your fault, but I'm sure it happens in more ways than just what I mentioned as far as being sleepy.

And, I think if you talk to the seller whom you were disappointed about an item and/or made a mistake WILL WORK WITH YOU.  All you have to do is drop a notecard to the merchant.  Most likely you will get an exchange offer though or store credit.

Would you go for an exchange offer or store credit?  

I had a couple of experiences where the clothing really did not fit Maitreya Lara at all, and I was given store credit after I contacted the seller about it and her best friend gave me the royal treatment around the store and I got really nice items in exchange.

I think something that would help is for every resident to have a feedback rating, like the eBay Community does.  This way even purchaser's have a rating as well.  With a good feedback rating on the purchaser, a seller will be able to tell at a glance that this person is not a player trying to get free copy stuff, AND the seller can see all transactions on the purchaser (just like Ebay).   

 

p.s. EDIT IN:  I was wearing a long wig that covered over the shoulders when I tried on the demo for the Maitreya Lara.  When I put my avatar in a hair up wig, the shoulders did not fit Maitreya Lara.  This is what I discussed with the merchant and she gave me store credit.  

 

If LL implements any kind of refund policy, it would have to be all no copy items only, as others have said so the item can be pulled upon the refund.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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On 9/2/2018 at 3:28 AM, Larisa String said:

Did you try the demo of what you bought before? If the answer is no, then you aren't entitled to a refund.

Did the item have a demo? If the answer is no, and you still went through with the transaction, you aren't entitled to a refund.

Did you buy something two times, by mistake? If the answer is yes, you should polity settle this with the seller as most stores offer a refund if the items come with copy permission.

The only reason I would see for a refund is being scammed, but since you're not buying from LL itself, it isn't their responsibility to give you a refund.

I admit, I was scammed, in the past, having bought something that perhaps was marketed to seem what it's not or just not having the right permissions. At first I was pissed off, but now I'm not because now I know what to look for when shopping on the market.

If in doubt, just don't buy it is the best policy for shoping in SL.

PS: this isn't RL and people should stop comparing the two.

 

Yes I have been scammed at times an item was not as described. I  also bought something by mistake when the demo was placed right next to the real item so close together it was hard to separate them , and other times due to lag and the place was slow to rez and while it was gray( this was before I got my new computer ), and I was turning my avatar around I clicked on it and accidentally bought something it was a gacha item. Other times the demo does not show all of the colors,  only one or two of them and I had to guess what it would look in the color I wanted only to be disappointed when the item was different. Also on the subject of skins if you buy the applier for the head you often need to match the body color with it but many creators do not offer the body applier demo so you buy it to match the head and if you do not like it you are stuck . 

Bottom line to be honest I do not appreciate the rudeness of some of the replies to me here . Not you above but some of the others are a little uncalled for.  If they are merchants resenting the idea of a customer returning things they are only hurting themselves because like you say when it doubt do not purchase.  I would purchase more if I knew I could return it not less. But the truth is SL does not care about this issue.  It was only a suggestion.   Moving on. 

Edited by Elinah Iredell
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None of this is an SL issue. This is entirely an arrangement between the buyer and seller, just as it is in RL. If you are in a physical shop in RL, there is no right to return goods, unless they are subsequently found to be faulty. You are deemed to have had the opportunity to inspect the goods before finalising the contact. I.e. payment.

Many shops however, will offer their own policy with regard to returns and this already exists in SL. The is absolutely no reason whatsoever why a merchant cannot choose to offer a return or refund on any transaction, copy/transfer/full perm or whatever and some do!

Now having said this, the UK does have the Distance Selling Act (although my memory fails me, I've a feeling it has been superceded in name) but this applies to products bought online or via phone, any method where the purchaser did not have the opportunity to inspect prior to purchase. This act grants legal right to the purchaser to return UNUSED products within 14 days but does not refund postage.

The key part is unused, you don't get to try it out and determine suitability, that's still at the discretion of the vendor.

This is as close as you'll get to a similar purchase within SL but the point remains, nothing needs to change, just contact the seller, all what they're able or willing to do.

Fundamentally, it's not an SL problem, it's a people solution.

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14 hours ago, Elinah Iredell said:

Yes I have been scammed at times an item was not as described. I  also bought something by mistake when the demo was placed right next to the real item so close together it was hard to separate them , and other times due to lag and the place was slow to rez and while it was gray( this was before I got my new computer ), and I was turning my avatar around I clicked on it and accidentally bought something it was a gacha item. Other times the demo does not show all of the colors,  only one or two of them and I had to guess what it would look in the color I wanted only to be disappointed when the item was different. Also on the subject of skins if you buy the applier for the head you often need to match the body color with it but many creators do not offer the body applier demo so you buy it to match the head and if you do not like it you are stuck . 

Bottom line to be honest I do not appreciate the rudeness of some of the replies to me here . Not you above but some of the others are a little uncalled for.  If they are merchants resenting the idea of a customer returning things they are only hurting themselves because like you say when it doubt do not purchase.  I would purchase more if I knew I could return it not less. But the truth is SL does not care about this issue.  It was only a suggestion.   Moving on. 

I'm sorry, I know how much of an inconvenience that is but all you described was more about your lack of attention. Also the way the sellers offer their demos is entirely up to them, usually the demo is so you see the fitting of the outfit on your body, NOT the colors. Some stores offer the option of checking the colors, but that's not what demos were made in the first place.

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Posted (edited)

Ability to return items would cause big problems. How would it work on items that were on the marketplace before the new returns policy? Creators might want to offer different permissions, to cut down on return abuse; some have thousands of items for sale already.

I don't have very many, but I do have a few full-perm items for sale. With automatic returns, someone could buy items, transfer copies to their alt or someone else, and then get their money back - anything full perm becomes a freebie with a couple of extra steps. Even nuking all the inventory copies of a copyable item won't fix that because it's already been copied to another avatar's inventory. Returns would quickly kill the full-perm market. It would kill the mod/copy item market too if not very carefully implemented to eliminate modified copies. Right now someone could pass full-perm items around to other people's avatars and often get away with it, but thieves do that kind of thing much less when they have to pay once than never.

You're better off using demos, reading descriptions carefully, and contacting the seller if there's a problem. If there's no demo, sample, or in-world display, be cautious. You can leave a bad review if the seller won't try to fix an item issue, and then avoid that seller. You could also try contacting them before the sale with questions. I would definitely want to help an honest customer who had a problem with something they bought or questions before purchase. Do not want to make it easier for dishonest people to steal.

Edited by callistanull
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