Do you care if content is ripped?

[Blush Bravin]

I know one of the most popular clothing brands in SL hires out all her rigging. I know another team where one does the mesh and the other does the textures. I know of two popular designers who teamed up to create a third brand where again, one did the mesh and the other the textures. All of this is original work in my opinion. I see these as partnerships. 

But in all of these cases none of the brands are trying to hide the fact that there is a team behind the brand. I think that's the point. Credit is given to the people involved. It's not someone buying a model from a website that is clearly not to be resold and then selling it in SL as their own work. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[LittleMe Jewell]

When I see "Original Mesh" then I expect to not see that same item in other stores. To me it does not necessarily mean that the store owner created it - they may have hired out the work - but I do expect that they are the only store with said item.

If I find out otherwise, then the store goes on my 'never buy from again' list.  Ditto if I find out that any store illegally uploaded the content.

[DeeFlowerMe]

8 hours ago, Fionalein said:

a) furniture "just" needs designing, scripting, animating, meshing and texturing

 b) the romatisized ideal  - no one would expect RL fashion designers to sew all their stuff either

c) (which IMHO it already stops being if you use the famous AV-Sitter scripts)

a) "Just" - well, glad you put that in quotes. I'll "just" give up then

b) well yes the special things I buy are just that.

c) good for you. I will remember to add 'uses own sit built with my blood sweat and swaering'. "Just"

And to quote Chic Aeon This really is disturbing to the many of the folks that do the work ALL by themselves. 

Not a 'folks' but the rest stands.

(also proactive is not a word but think lost that one <8! )

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, DeeFlowerMe said:

(which IMHO it already stops being if you use the famous AV-Sitter scripts)

I actually DID think about that. I do everything else including animations and scripting (not fancy - things I learned in classes) but I do use AV-Sitter and of course I did NOT do that LOL.

 

So agree that if we are picky NOONE has completely content creator mesh IF there are sit scripts in there :D.  Of course it took me over eight years to buy AV-Sitter LOL. So for THOSE years I was completely the creator. And I use a free door script too :D. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by Chic Aeon

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

I don't think the demand for "original mesh" equates to "unique content" since it's most likely that having unique scripts is of far less importance to consumers than unique mesh or (in the case of furniture, etc) unique animations.  For the most part the average consumer is probably more concerned with whether the script actually functions properly than if its unique and created solely for use in the creators own products.

I think the saddest part of creators misusing content from illegitimate sources in order to keep up with a busy workload is that, in most cases, if a creator is successful enough to be so in demand that they automatically receive invites to all the large events and have such a heavy workload then chances are they're in a position to hire other aspiring creators to help out, but choose not to for whatever reason.

Personally I've never used AV-Sitter or other similar scripted systems but then I create more for my own amusement and because I enjoy a challenge, so will create the mesh, write all the accompanying scripts, and on the occasions (which are rare since I don't often make furniture) that the item in question requires them I'll also try my hand at creating the animations as well.  That being said any creator that's running a popular store on their own and providing 100% unique content must, in my opinion, be some kind of SL savant since the workload involved in just creating the content alone is heavy enough, when you then consider the marketing, social media, customer support, etc that's also necessary to make a business successful in SL these days I just don't see how any one person could find the time to do all those things and still be able to release multiple quality products per month.

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

 

I think the saddest part of creators misusing content from illegitimate sources in order to keep up with a busy workload is that, in most cases, if a creator is successful enough to be so in demand that they automatically receive invites to all the large events and have such a heavy workload then chances are they're in a position to hire other aspiring creators to help out, but choose not to for whatever reason.

Long ago before teenagers were "expected" to have sex, there was a big campaign called "Just Say No" and that applies in this case too. Just because you get invites, you don't need to join. I turn down lots of invitations and I have plenty of time. Some events work well for some brands, not for others. Picking the ones that are a good fit is part of being a store owner.  And honestly that argument is a bit lame as some of the creators spouting it have been dropped from those top events by the owner. So the "getting invites to all the top events" party line is a bit dubious as a reasoning point. 

That was a good point you made though and I agree that it would certainly be better to hire someone to make the mesh (or partner which works very well for some folks) than to break agreements. 

 

1 hour ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

That being said any creator that's running a popular store on their own and providing 100% unique content must, in my opinion, be some kind of SL savant since the workload involved in just creating the content alone is heavy enough, when you then consider the marketing, social media, customer support, etc that's also necessary to make a business successful in SL these days I just don't see how any one person could find the time to do all those things and still be able to release multiple quality products per month.

There are lots of brands that hire folks for the marketing end of the business which is certainly a viable plan. I don't know that my store is in the "popular" category but I am selling well and making a living.  Aside from putting up vendor photos on Flickr (often required by events) and my store blog,  I don't market.  

No group. No bloggers or blogger manager, no social media. Customer support is minimal since I check all my products MANY times before they are put out for sale. And still I have managed to be in several events most months including gachas which take a ton of time if you are making individual items. I am so caught up I am spending August in Sansar building there now that the creator agreement is no longer in effect. We all make choices as to how we spend our time. Budgeting that time is an important part of doing business. 

Not disagreeing, just saying it is possible :D.

Some designers opt in to a lot of events and then end up putting out what I think of as "throw away" releases, those definitely made in a rush, simple and usually not all that exciting. While this is sad, it is certainly a better solution I think than going over to the dark side of illegality.

 

The BETTER plan is those two little letters, "N" and "O". 

 

 

[Luna Bliss]

It's interesting to see the varied ways merchants manage their businesses.

Personally, I hate the marketing aspects, as it can well take up half the time I have allotted for SL. And so, I don't do as well as I should there...or could.

When I don't have the time/inclination/talent to create a mesh item for a project I will purchase it...and seek out legitimate full-perm creators. Or sometimes I buy a mod/copy item using my customer's avatar for their custom job. Once I hired someone to create a mesh and discovered they grabbled it off a 3D model site without permission! So now I have to peruse 3D model sites to keep up on what's out there.

Lately I've been seeking out creators who sell their content but don't have a MP presence at all...they can be difficult to find.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Luna Bliss
clarity

[ChinRey]

20 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Its a public secret most don't - they just hire contracters to do the "original" work - so much for respecting the customer desire 

I don't see that as a problem to be honest. It's original content made by a company - by a group of people.

I mean, a Stradivarius violin is a genuine Stradivarius if it was made at Antonio Stradivarius' workshop and under his supervision. The fact that all the actual work was almost certainly done by his empolyees, doesn't matter.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, ChinRey said:

I don't see that as a problem to be honest. It's original content made by a company - by a group of people.

I mean, a Stradivarius violin is a genuine Stradivarius if it was made at Antonio Stradivarius' workshop and under his supervision. The fact that all the actual work was almost certainly done by his empolyees, doesn't matter.

While I agree with you 100% I do have to wonder what the reaction would be if someone who bought a Stradivarius were able to examine it (i.e. the RL equivalent of right-clicking and checking the General Tab in the build window) and see "Creator: Johann Russo" or some other common name they didn't recognize!

[ChinRey]

11 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

While I agree with you 100% I do have to wonder what the reaction would be if someone who bought a Stradivarius were able to examine it (i.e. the RL equivalent of right-clicking and checking the General Tab in the build window) and see "Creator: Johann Russo" or some other common name they didn't recognize!

Today people would have been shocked. And prehaps they would have been more shocked if they right-clicked on an Amati and saw: "Creator: Antonio Stradivarius".

Back in earlier days, people probably wouldn't have noticed at all. Nobody expected the Master to do the dirty work himself. I think the closest modern equivalent to the pre industrial revolution workshops is the restaurant kitchen. If you go to a Jamie Oliver restaurant, you don't expect to get a meal cooked by Oliver himself, do you? That was how everything was done. Even art.

Edited August 4, 2018 by ChinRey

[OptimoMaximo]

29 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Once I hired someone to create a mesh and discovered they grabbled it off a 3D model site without permission!

My 2 cents on this: when I am hired to do some work, in order to build trust over the source material i'm providing, i include WIP pictures along the time needed to complete the task, from the original primitive(s) used to start the project up to the finished model. Most of the times i find myself proposing and doing it with no prompt about it, but i think it's a good idea to request such a thing when you outsource a mesh creation.

10 hours ago, DeeFlowerMe said:

c) (which IMHO it already stops being if you use the famous AV-Sitter scripts)

In my own stuff i try to use my own scripts as much as i can, but when it comes to purchase  a scriptset that's intended to provide features that would take me too long to complete, i purchase that no problem, like any developer would use a pre-made library whenever it is possible. It avoids debugging time losses, product instability etc. It comes with a license and as such it is legal, as most of the software houses do, including LL (remember that much of the viewer code is contributed by third parties). This argumentation doesn't belong to the item creation as it doesn't pertain to the mesh model creation itself.

3 hours ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I think the saddest part of creators misusing content from illegitimate sources in order to keep up with a busy workload is that, in most cases, if a creator is successful enough to be so in demand that they automatically receive invites to all the large events and have such a heavy workload then chances are they're in a position to hire other aspiring creators to help out, but choose not to for whatever reason.

Laziness and Greed. Not necessarily in this exact order. Oh and also the FirstLady syndrome (the "i'm better than anyone etc etc my public image etc etc" type of mindset)

16 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

But in all of these cases none of the brands are trying to hide the fact that there is a team behind the brand.

And i agree with you that it is not a problem, it's a well thought strategy because it's how studios manage their work and it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's a company. Bethesda, Pixar and all the likes PRIDE about their crew of specialists to deliver what they market.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, ChinRey said:

Today people would have been shocked. And prehaps they would ahve been more shocked if they right-clicked on an Amati and saw: "Creator: Antonio Stradivarius".

Back in earlier days, people probably wouldn't have noticed at all. Nobody expected the Master to do the dirty work himself. I think the closest modern equivalent to the pre industrial revolution workshops is the restaurant kitchen. If you go to a Jamie Oliver restaurant, you don't expect to get a meal cooked by Oliver himself, do you? That was how everything was done. Even art.

Again, I completely agree, my comment was more just an attempt to illustrate how the problem with the demand for "original mesh" has come about, i.e. the unreasonable expectations and misunderstandings SL consumers have when it comes to the creation of content in SL.

[Pamela Galli]

To be clear, people are not outraged that someone sold something that was not 100% made from scratch with their own hands, or made by a team. The outrage was that someone stole someone else’s work, did not compensate them for it in any way, and claimed authorship of it. Which is not just bad form or against TOS, not just cheating other creators in the free market, but ILLEGAL . 

[ChinRey]

19 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Again, I completely agree, my comment was more just an attempt to illustrate how the problem with the demand for "original mesh" has come about, i.e. the unreasonable expectations and misunderstandings SL consumers have when it comes to the creation of content in SL.

Yes.

But I have to point out that the case Pamela started the thread with (and many others I know of but won't mention) is different because:

1. The merchant lied. She claimed she had made the item herself when in fact all the work she had done was upload it to SL
2. The merchant was not involved in the production/creative process in any way. Stradivarius may not have done the work himself but he decided what work needed to be done and he made sure it was done to his specs. That's exactly what the big brands who use hired modellers and riggers do.
3. The merchant broke the law. She violated the real creator's and the original seller's IP rights by uploading the item to SL and by reselling it.

Edited August 4, 2018 by ChinRey

[Chic Aeon]

37 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

While I agree with you 100% I do have to wonder what the reaction would be if someone who bought a Stradivarius were able to examine it (i.e. the RL equivalent of right-clicking and checking the General Tab in the build window) and see "Creator: Johann Russo" or some other common name they didn't recognize!

Just noting that "work for hire" would deliver the active files to the person hiring and they would upload (and do :D).  Don't want folks to think that just because a creator's name is on the product that they made it themselves. It is still legit. Personally, I don't mind that either. 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

9 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Yes.

But I have to point out that the case Pamela started the thread with (and many others I know of but won't mention) is different because:

1. The merchant lied. She claimed she had made the item herself when in fact all the work she had done was upload it to SL
2. The merchant was not involved in the production/creative process in any way. Stradivarius may not have done the work himself but he decided what work needed to be done and he made sure it was done to his specs. That's exactly what the big brands who use hired modellers and riggers do.
3. The merchant broke the law. She violated the real creator's and the original seller's IP rights by uploading the item to SL and by reselling it.

Absolutely!  The case mentioned in Pamelas original post is pretty clear cut, and there really is no viable excuse for what the creator in question has done.  Uploading and selling content that's covered by an existing TOS that disallows upload of said content to SL and then, even worse, claiming that it's your own original work is pretty much unforgivable in my opinion, regardless of the circumstances.

[Chic Aeon]

16 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

To be clear, people are not outraged that someone sold something that was not 100% made from scratch with their own hands, or made by a team. The outrage was that someone stole someone else’s work, did not compensate them for it in any way, and claimed authorship of it. Which is not just bad form or against TOS, not just cheating other creators in the free market, but ILLEGAL . 

OK. I don't Plurk or anything (hence crossing off social media for my brand :D) but at least one creator in the melee PURCHASED products from a 3D website.  I don't know about any other accusations. Yes, uploading to SL from many (and apparently the one used) was against the TOS of the site, but items were paid for.  A friend told me the other day that prices of the brand had gone up noticeably from one creator in our soap opera. It seems likely that was to cover paying for the mesh.  I haven't personally seen any "stolen content" allegations but again I am not paying much attention. 

I WILL say that scenes ripped from prominent games are showing up more often -- at least one at a prominent monthly event.  THAT would be like what you are talking about and yes, it does happen.  

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

5 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Just noting that "work for hire" would deliver the active files to the person hiring and they would upload (and do :D).  Don't want folks to think that just because a creator's name is on the product that they made it themselves. It is still legit. Personally, I don't mind that either. 

Yes, I see nothing wrong with hiring other SL creators to help with a heavy workload, or even contacting content developers not associated with SL and hiring them to create unique 3D models or negotiating a license to use the items they've created within SL is perfectly acceptable, and in fact makes very good business sense in my opinion.

[ChinRey]

I think I should tell about something that happened to me recently here.

A friend of mine who is a very good builder but don't sell much, got tired of seeing all the big brands in his field foisting off models they had bought from Turbosquid as their own works. He asked me what I thought and when I looked, the item he was thinking of turned out to be very similar to one of his own builds but not nearly as well made. So it was fairly easy for me to convince him it was a bad idea.

But I can't help wondering, how many other good and honest but struggling content creators think that way ... and how many eventually give in to the temptation?

[ChinRey]

4 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Yes, I see nothing wrong with hiring other SL creators to help with a heavy workload

I do that kind of work myself. If I have a commission job where the specs are so detailed there's hardly anything creative for me to add (usually that means something the client made from prims), I will actually insist that the client uploads it in their name. I get paid for the time I spend converting their build into SL friendly mesh and once that job is done, I'm done.

If the specs are more general and require some interpretation, it's a bit trickier. Technically those builds are collective works but an SL item can only have one creator listed. Usually I leave it to the client to decide and most of the time they don't care either way. Those items have always been one-off custom builds though, never intended for resale.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

4 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I do that kind of work myself. If I have a commission job where the specs are so detailed there's hardly anything creative for me to add (usually that means something the client made from prims), I will actually insist that the client uploads it in their name. I get paid for the time I spend converting their build into SL friendly mesh and once that job is done, I'm done.

If the specs are more general and require some interpretation, it's a bit trickier. Technically those builds are collective works but an SL item can only have one creator listed. Usually I leave it to the client to decide and most of the time they don't care either way. Those items have always been one-off custom builds though, never intended for resale.

On the odd occasions that I take commissions for custom work I usually prefer that the person I'm creating the item for upload it themselves if it's something that they intend to sell (and in the case of scripts will often encourage them to copy the contents of the script into a script of their own), since it can be confusing for the end user and I'd rather avoid getting customer support requests for items that are being sold by other people. 

Many years ago when I ran a store of my own selling vendors and other scripted gadgets I would get IMs from people asking questions about items that I didn't even sell because they'd checked the General Tab in the build window and confused the creator of the vendor with its owner.

[ChinRey]

8 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

On the odd occasions that I take commissions for custom work I usually prefer that the person I'm creating the item for upload it themselves if it's something that they intend to sell

Yes, I probably would do that too. I've never really thought about it because all the "commercial" commissions I've had so far have had such detailed specs I didn't want my name as creator anyway.

Edited August 4, 2018 by ChinRey

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, ChinRey said:

Yes, I probably would do that too. I've never really thought about it because all the "for resale" commissions I've had so far have had such detailed specs I didn't want my name as creator anyway.

Yeah, if the design is someone else's and all you're doing is recreating that design in mesh it feels almost dishonest in a way to have your name listed as the "creator" of the actual object.

[Paul Hexem]

Coming from someone that builds with a lot of full perm mesh, I tend to write my own scripts, make my own textures, make my own animations, and trust that the mesh I'm buying is legit.

I used to try very hard to avoid the stuff clearly stolen from games and other sites. Then I started seeing all this stolen stuff in the big popular stores, at the events, on the front page of the MP with glowing reviews, and even a Linden got caught once. Add that to the creators that are stealing stuff from less known sources like the art sites and schools, and it's just completely disheartening.

At this point I figure SL it's just an outlaw's den anyway, and I stopped caring.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Gadget Portal

[Coffee Pancake]

I got verbally harassed by a BRAND NAME maker of cyberpunk stuff after I left a SLM review complaining that a trivial update to some cybernetic arms didn't justify a full price repurchase, he went out of his way to message me in world ranting about how much work had been put in, threatened to ban me from his store and from updates (he was also exceptionally crude). The EXACT same arms are for sale from a different vendor, who also has other fully matching parts not sold by BRAND NAME  ... so I'm left wondering who got robbed, because sure as hell someone did, probably me.