Jump to content
Cheza Tearfall

Secondlife declining player base

Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, Phorumities said:

I guess this is a noob question but what exactly is the default system avatar "made of" if its not a mesh . I'm pretty sure its not made of prims.

The default system avatar's whole body is mesh. Unfortunately very poorly designed one. As it is an integral part of the avatar it cannot ever be detached, we are always wearing it. When we wear imported mesh bodies and mesh heads then we just hide the system avatar's mesh with alpha texture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Coby Foden said:

The default system avatar's whole body is mesh. Unfortunately very poorly designed one. As it is an integral part of the avatar it cannot ever be detached, we are always wearing it. When we wear imported mesh bodies and mesh heads then we just hide the system avatar's mesh with alpha texture.

Yes i know that, but why is a system mesh avi "good" and a wearable mesh avi "bad". Is it just a fact of life that a better, more detailed mesh avi causes more lag?

My avatar on this account has a render weight of 450. Just imagine how much better sl would run if everyone was a semitransparent rotating sphere.

Everything is a tradeoff, and I'd personally trade lower frame rates and longer load times to look good.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Phorumities said:

Yes i know that, but why is a system mesh avi "good" and a wearable mesh avi "bad". Is it just a fact of life that a better, more detailed mesh avi causes more lag? My avatar on this account has a render weight of 450. Just imagine how much better sl would run if everyone was a semitransparent rotating sphere.
Everything is a tradeoff, and I'd personally trade lower frame rates and longer load times to look good.

System avatar's mesh is only one mesh layer so it's light to render. Imported mesh bodies have many mesh layers on top of each other (3 layers and even 4 layers). So that fact alone makes them heavier to render than the system avatar's mesh. And naturally the imported mesh bodies are more detailed than system avatar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The increase was from three years ago to this summer. "This summer" isn't even "3 years ago" on Mercury.

Apologies I misunderstood your post but unless I once again am misunderstanding, if they earned $60mil 3 years ago (that's awesome good for them) but, if they earned an extra $8mil from then till last summer then you have proved my point then that in over 3 years they have only seen an increase of $8mil total. In terms of that size business and by historical data of what they used to see in profit increases then it is still a tiny increase. Add to that the fact of dropping land sales and user retention I cant see that figure pushing up more any time soon. Hence why they are looking at other ways to make money.

That said, all that proves is labs is making money. I don't deny that, I want them to but, it still doesn't change the fact that they need to fix these mesh body issues with regards to market domination, clothing and system avatars as well as reintroduce in world building so user numbers can grow and not decline so that the economy can increase.

Not in relation to your post Theresa, but (don't want to flog a dead horse) it is in labs best interest to reintroduce viable inworld mesh creation. At the moment the market constitutes a person makes a mesh item out of sl, uploads onto the beta grid fixing all issues and then uploads once to sl and then to the marketplace. In some instances other than uploading the product they don't even step in or stay in sl and have a website for support instead or other support people inworld. As far as profit goes other than marketplace sales all labs gets is 1 mesh upload fee and 1 uv maped texture fee. All other profit goes to the creator at more than 95%.

Conversely, before they made the inworld creation tools obsolete the process was - buy a parcel of land or support your favourite sandbox, build on that parcel and stay inworld for hours building and chatting with other users helping new users build, upload multiple textures or buy multiple textures and other full perm items from another creator and then upload to the marketplace and many more people had an inworld store. This saw sl always looking full and active meaning new users saw activity instead of playing spot the dots on the map, helped new users who wanted to build, supported other sim owners, supported other creators buy buying their produces and driving them to make more and then also increased labs profits far more as far as upload fees etc goes. It also drove up user numbers and gave people a selling point for sl instead of a glorified chat program with pretty graphics and dress-up.

All labs needed to do to make sl more viable is introduce in world texture creation and animation creation. Instead they removed (made obsolete) in world creation, removed inworld new user support, removed tertiary discounts, made obsolete system avatars etc. Sure they have added things over the years like bento, fitted mesh etc. but all this does not make non builders stay in sl and support it.

2 hours ago, Phorumities said:

Yes i know that, but why is a system mesh avi "good" and a wearable mesh avi "bad". Is it just a fact of life that a better, more detailed mesh avi causes more lag?

My avatar on this account has a render weight of 450. Just imagine how much better sl would run if everyone was a semitransparent rotating sphere.

Everything is a tradeoff, and I'd personally trade lower frame rates and longer load times to look good.

Other than what Coby said it also meant a new user didn't have to spend a lot of money off the bat to have a decent avatar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Phorumities said:

Yes i know that, but why is a system mesh avi "good" and a wearable mesh avi "bad". Is it just a fact of life that a better, more detailed mesh avi causes more lag?

The system avatar mesh isn't actually that terrible and good texture artists can get it pretty close to the results you see on 3rd party heads.

If LL updated the poly count and weighting to fix creases, fingers, feet and distortions that happen in certain poses (such as squatting) and added materials support then there would be little use for after market mesh bodies and heads. Sadly they didn't do this and we then we crazy over mesh bodies & heads with insane texture and poly counts.

5 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

System avatar's mesh is only one mesh layer so it's light to render. Imported mesh bodies have many mesh layers on top of each other (3 layers and even 4 layers). So that fact alone makes them heavier to render than the system avatar's mesh. And naturally the imported mesh bodies are more detailed than system avatar.

It is also significantly lower poly than current mesh based avatars.

If we were all using that, we wouldn't be complaining about performance nearly as much.

 

If LL really want to address performance then a system avatar 2 is imperative. They have seen our best and sadly we're insane and don't care about performance at all. With Bom and a little magic there is no reason why we can't have a system avatar for general use and a high poly one for whatever we do that needs insane amounts of closeup detail.

As of right now there is literally nothing stopping BRAND_X mesh head/body maker creating there own 2.0 BRAND_X head/body upgrade with double the polys and double the layers, and sit back safe in the knowledge that us idiots we will gleefully buy. They are immune to performance complaints as obviously the real problem is the age of SL and LL being teh suck.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Klytyna will hate my answer, but that is part of the fun, right? There is a thing called Project Ruth 2.0. It is a low poly full bento avatar and open source, I guess it should not be too hard to script a BOM applier for it...

But of course folks won't wear such a simple design and stay with their high resolution mesh bodies if for the sole reason their swimwear and kinky BDSM outfits won't fit any other but "The One" mainstream body.

Edited by Fionalein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no reason why it can't be designed by a resident, but It needs to become a open and well documented LL standard with all the files needed to make and weight clothing,  and it needs to be forced.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

... and it needs to be forced.

IMHO You cannot force it ... how would you force it? That is what will make BOM DOA already, folks will just continue wearing their applier tattoos, you cannot force them to stop - Now if you penalize it by making avatar complexity orbs more common (and redo the function to grab that info) - that might work (or not as the few complexity orbs so far show)

Edited by Fionalein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fionalein said:

IMHO You cannot force it ... how would you force it? That is what will make BOM DOA already, folks will just continue wearing their applier tattoos, you cannot force them to stop - Now if you penalize it by making avatar complexity orbs more common (and redo the function to grab that info) - that might work (or not as the few complexity orbs so far show)

I think "forced" was the wrong word to use. I'm assuming what Coffee means is that when a new user comes to SL they should get this updated, well documented standard mesh body as a default, and all existing users need to have access to it right away, too. This way there will be an instant, and growing install base for the body, making it an obvious choice for clothing makers to support it.

However, I would add that there should be a resource cap on avatars, much like Land Impact. This would make a good looking, but relatively optimized alternative to the current high-poly, lagtastic mesh body/head selections an absolute must for most people.

 On the other hand I would say that a new system avatar would be a much, much better solution than simply giving people a free wearable mesh body replacer. With a new system body you not only get texture baking, but you get all the other features that people tend to forget the system body has. Applier based clothing always looks flat, but the system body allowed you adjust the fit of system clothing. Improving on that and combined with materials, this could end up making system clothing that was comparable to mesh clothing. (Not all mesh clothing, obviously, but things like pants and basic shirts for sure.)

We also have a system skin system that everyone hates because it was made using programmer art that was never replaced, but if LL got a real artist in there to create the assets, system skins could be made a viable alternative to buying a skin texture. You can argue this would be competing with content creators, but there needs to be a balance with usability or you run into the problem I explained before, where you end up pushing so many people away from SL that the loss of income outweighs the sales potentially lost by the introduction of such a feature. And there would still be a large market for skins as there is only so much a built in slider system can accomplish, but it would be there, and it would be an acceptable option for anyone just starting out in SL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

System avatar's mesh is only one mesh layer so it's light to render. Imported mesh bodies have many mesh layers on top of each other (3 layers and even 4 layers). So that fact alone makes them heavier to render than the system avatar's mesh. And naturally the imported mesh bodies are more detailed than system avatar.

People have in the past, exported the system avatar from SL, and reimported it as rigged and even fitted mesh, with the only noticable change to the mesh being the removal of the "really crap onion layer skirt clothing".

I suspect that if you wore a whole body alpha, and a reimported system avi mesh (sans skirt), the RCI would be more than the 1000 for a system avi.

A system Avi's 1000 RCI cost is an arbitary token amount, not an accurate rating compared to ANYTHING else.

12 hours ago, Phorumities said:

why is a system mesh avi "good" and a wearable mesh avi "bad". Is it just a fact of life that a better, more detailed mesh avi causes more lag?

Basically, yes... SL-Fossil syndrome "It's old and its low quality and looks a bit crap, it's a CLASSIC! SAVE IT!"

4 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Klytyna will hate my answer, but that is part of the fun, right? There is a thing called Project Ruth 2.0

Hahaha... I've seen one, and it's not that low poly, certainly higher than a "system avi", a single layer mesh with multiple alpha cuts, it was designed as a "poor man's maitreya" because the designer likes the maitreya butt, Ruth-2's is slightly larger.

Think of it as an Otaku Maitreya-Tribute Body...

4 hours ago, Fionalein said:

I guess it should not be too hard to script a BOM applier for it...

A friend of mine apparently wrote her own materials based applier script for it's 28 or 29 multi-faced "prims"...

Writing a Bake-Fail-on-Mesh applier for it would be child's play, once you've gone through it sorting out which of its "prims" are upper body, lower body, and head textured.

If you really wanted a mesh avi that looked like a system avi wearing a maitreya body shape that is...

4 hours ago, Fionalein said:

if for the sole reason their swimwear and kinky BDSM outfits won't fit

Nothing actually fits a Ruth-2, some maitreya fit items will be close enough to get away with, ditto some non fitted "standard sizes" if you edit the shape under it down enough.

Switching us all to a BFoM Ruth-2, will mean everyone wearing ill fitting shoes and 5-10 year old system rags for a couple or three years while the market catches up

The effects of that on resident moral, and the SL economy are... Potentially FATAL.

3 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

and it needs to be forced.

Maybe you could reward people with "Worthless Activity Tokens" for being good serfs and wearing the Official Party Commisar Approved Body (tm)...

3 hours ago, Fionalein said:

IMHO You cannot force it ... how would you force it? That is what will make BOM DOA already, folks will just continue wearing their applier tattoos, you cannot force them to stop

Quite, BFoM is already a "giant leap backwards in avi rendering" disaster, forcing people to use that crap won't help SL at all, say hello to Accelerated Retention Failure!...

I can hear the complaints from the fashion shoppers already

"I paid *cough* L$ for my head and body and clothes and hair over the last 4 years and now some jumped up petty fascist Faux-Dev wants to send me to the Fugly Gulag and sequestrate my Worthless-Activity-Tokens because I like Materials based textures on my stuff and a Commisar has reported me for having an RCI over 10000!"



 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

You can argue this would be competing with content creators

I don't see that as being a bad thing in this case. From what I've read, some mesh body and body parts creators don't give a hoot about how much lag their products cause, so it seems to me that making them compete with well-made bodies can only be a good thing. And there's no doubt at all that SL would be far better with a massive range of clothing that suits the body that people use - like it use to be.

That thinking is based solely on what I've read and not on my experience, of which I have none.

Edited by Phil Deakins
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

a Commisar has reported me for having an RCI over 10000!"



 

so what would a reasonable max avatar complexity be if they were gonna cap it?

I'm usually around 100k but everyone would scream.... its your horrible flexi prim hair thats lagging the sim and destroying our second life.

not to mention 150 scripts 

*rolls eyes*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, Fionalein said:

IMHO You cannot force it ... how would you force it? 

 

2 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

I think "forced" was the wrong word to use. I'm assuming what Coffee means is that when a new user comes to SL they should get this updated, well documented standard mesh body as a default, and all existing users need to have access to it right away, too. This way there will be an instant, and growing install base for the body, making it an obvious choice for clothing makers to support it.

Oh no. Forced was the exact word I ment. New system body, back to sliders for everything with a toggle switch in the shape to flip between old, new and none.

ARC changes that make onion skinned bodies prohibitively expensive to wear out the house. Forced. As in "We saw what you did, we hoped sanity would prevail but that turned out to be wildly optimistic .. and it was terrible. Stoppit".

Existing mesh clothing could be catered to by providing facility for an avatar to have 2 shapes. One for the new default avatar body and one that would present a subset of the sliders and only affect all other rigged mesh attachments .. call it a "clothing fit shape".

2 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

However, I would add that there should be a resource cap on avatars, much like Land Impact. This would make a good looking, but relatively optimized alternative to the current high-poly, lagtastic mesh body/head selections an absolute must for most people.

An avatar cap would make the situation forced. If they added a sane cap, it would be entirely expended the moment you wore an after market onion skinned body, head, hands and feet ... or a pair of shoes.

2 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

You can argue this would be competing with content creators, but there needs to be a balance with usability or you run into the problem I explained before, where you end up pushing so many people away from SL that the loss of income outweighs the sales potentially lost by the introduction of such a feature.

Content creators have shown that given no limits, they create items of limitless complexity.

They have also shown an astounding lack of creativity by wholesale importing work from other platforms.

There was never any doubt that the artistry involved in painting skins for the old system avatar wasn't just yanked off the shelf, where as now, every single mesh item sold in SL is basically suspect. I can count the number of content creators I know for a fact make their own mesh from scratch on my fingers.

 

  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

I don't see that as being a bad thing in this case. From what I've read, some mesh body and body parts creators don't give a hoot about how much lag their products cause

No. They don't. They aren't giving a second thought to rendering impact.

The bulk of stuff is just bought from other online sources / application specific libraries, exported, weighted and dumped into SL. "I made this" really means "I bought this, painted it blue and uploaded it".

Do they even have licencing rights to claim ownership and resell .. who knows. Who cares.

Is this content made for rendering on a real time platform.. who knows. Who cares.

Will this cause or contribute to performance issues ... does this have any LOD models at all ... is this created with any thought given to it's final ARC weighting .. does anyone even know who this model was actually created by in the first place ...

It's not just fashion. It's almost everything mesh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Forced. As in "We saw what you did, we hoped sanity would prevail but that turned out to be wildly optimistic .. and it was terrible. Stoppit".

Now if only we could apply that logic at everyone we think of must have completely lost their mind, ... Sorry Coffee, yelling at the majority of SL's moneymaking machine will not get you where you want...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Oh no. Forced was the exact word I ment. New system body, back to sliders for everything with a toggle switch in the shape to flip between old, new and none.

ARC changes that make onion skinned bodies prohibitively expensive to wear out the house. Forced. As in "We saw what you did, we hoped sanity would prevail but that turned out to be wildly optimistic .. and it was terrible. Stoppit". 

Existing mesh clothing could be catered to by providing facility for an avatar to have 2 shapes. One for the new default avatar body and one that would present a subset of the sliders and only affect all other rigged mesh attachments .. call it a "clothing fit shape".

I don't see this 'forcing' as anything that would go over well.   I also don't think that 1 mesh body model would satisfy all users - if that was the case there would not be so many different mesh bodies on the market now, with so many variations of shapes.

A "clothing fit shape" would need to be very flexible if it was going to work for all existing mesh clothing.   I have trouble seeing how one generic body could be made to work for existing clothes made for current specific bodies.  I also don't think you could 'force' creators to make clothes for a new body - even if it was the starter body.  There was a period when the starter avatars were mesh body style (not compatible with system clothing, if I recall correctly) and I do not remember seeing third party clothing being made for them.

What about non-human forms?  I've seen some mesh dragon avatars that have come in with a complexity number over 400K.  

I've  used the Ruth 2 in Open Sim - while it is an improvement in how the body looks over the system avatar, there is something strange about the clothes for it. I'm not sure how they're made - they don't go on like appliers do, but they look closer to applier or system clothing than regular mesh clothing, so kind of a step backwards in the clothing appearance (in my mind, anyway).

1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Content creators have shown that given no limits, they create items of limitless complexity.

They have also shown an astounding lack of creativity by wholesale importing work from other platforms.

There was never any doubt that the artistry involved in painting skins for the old system avatar wasn't just yanked off the shelf, where as now, every single mesh item sold in SL is basically suspect. I can count the number of content creators I know for a fact make their own mesh from scratch on my fingers.

I don't know that it's a fair statement to say that all content creators, given no limits, will create items of limitless complexity. I also don't know if anything that's been suggested would stop the importing of mesh content from other sources.  

It seems like what is being suggested, in my opinion, would drive off many people - both users and creators.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Oh no. Forced was the exact word I ment. New system body, back to sliders for everything with a toggle switch in the shape to flip between old, new and none.

Ok, so you're talking about a new system body, not giving people a mesh attachment to wear. And in addition, an ARC limit that makes the onion skin mesh bodies undesirable (as they currently exist). I understand now, and yeah, I agree completely. I would stress, however, that it would need to be done in a way that doesn't force people to stop using their old content overnight. You can't just rip the band-aid off here, you need to ease the userbase into it. Give both content creators and their customers time and incentive to adapt.

I also love the idea of the "clothing fit shape", I'm not certain how feasible it is (adjusting a mesh dress made for a Maitreya body to fit this proposed new system avatar might look good in t-pose, but once you start moving, but I wonder if the rig weighting might pose a problem), but if it could work that would be pretty great.

1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

so what would a reasonable max avatar complexity be if they were gonna cap it?

I wonder if Avatar Complexity is the best way to go about it. It might be better to just say "Ok, you have a cap of X triangles and XMB of VRAM." As I keep saying, however, such limits cannot be imposed overnight. LL has to do it in a way that isn't wholly disruptive. Announcing the limits, showing the new limits alongside the current limits in the viewer, giving people the tools to help manage their resource use and make more educated purchasing decisions, and a grace period to allow people time to adapt, seems to me like the best way to approach it.

 It's not like SL is going away in the next year or two.

3 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

What about non-human forms?  I've seen some mesh dragon avatars that have come in with a complexity number over 400K.  

Then it was a badly made dragon avatar, or they were wearing other attachments, possibly hidden but still using rendering resources, to push their complexity that high. I've seen anime, furry, animal and mythical creature avatars all with very reasonable complexity. I'm talking around 60k or less.

5 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

It seems like what is being suggested, in my opinion, would drive off many people - both users and creators.

Like I've said above and in many previous posts, how LL goes about implementing any new restrictions is extremely important. Limiting rendering resources on avatars is a good idea, but it can't just be dumped haphazardly on the userbase or yes, it would drive people away. Linden Lab needs to be both deliberate and patient in how they approach it.

  • Give people better options. ie: A new system body that looks as good as an expensive, onion skin mesh body+head but uses a fraction of the resources.
  • Give people better tools. Let them see the triangles and texture memory avatars and individual attachments use. Incentive sellers to display this info in marketplace listings. Come down hard on those who misuse this to give incorrect information.
  • Work with content creators, provide them with the proper documentation and honest to god tips for effectively working within the new limits. Don't make them try and figure it out on their own.
  • Give everyone a grace period during which they can adapt. I'm talking a year or two AFTER the new tools are all in place. "Here's the new limits that are coming so you can see how you'll be affected. Don't worry about it yet. Content creators know these changes are coming, too, and they know they'll need to change how they make content in order to remain competitive."

 Making optimized content isn't difficult. If you know how to make the content in the first place you have all the skills you need to make optimized content. Much of the existing content out there can even be updated fairly easily by its creators. If LL can be sensible about it, I'm positive they can make the necessary changes without driving users away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An alternative to a grace period, or in addition to one, for any sort of new avatar complexity restriction would be tying those restrictions to new must-have features. I suggested this to LL when Bento was in the works. There was no doubt everyone would want to hop on the Bento train, so tying new restrictions to avatars utilizing the new feature would have been a great way to get creators working towards better optimization.

I also suggested this when Fitmesh was in the works, because it was obvious that everyone would want to get in on using Fitmesh.

I also suggested this to the Lindens when materials were on the way. There was no doubt that everyone would want to make use of materials, so it was a perfect opportunity there, too.

Before even that, I kept trying to tell the Lindens that such a complexity cap really should be a part of mesh before that was released. Because it was pretty painfully obvious that everyone would want to use mesh.

I'm not certain if there will be many more  "must-have" features along these lines introduced to SL. The kind of new feature where it is obvious from the beginning that EVERYONE will want to use that feature the moment it's released. They may well have wasted all of their best opportunities. But, if there is such a new feature coming, they should consider it. Or just attach to all future features so as time goes on people have increasing incentives to jump on the optimization train. Animesh attachments, Baked on mesh, and whatever else is coming in the future.

Edited by Penny Patton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Like I've said above and in many previous posts, how LL goes about implementing any new restrictions is extremely important. Limiting rendering resources on avatars is a good idea, but it can't just be dumped haphazardly on the userbase or yes, it would drive people away. Linden Lab needs to be both deliberate and patient in how they approach it.

  • Give people better options. ie: A new system body that looks as good as an expensive, onion skin mesh body+head but uses a fraction of the resources.
  • Give people better tools. Let them see the triangles and texture memory avatars and individual attachments use. Incentive sellers to display this info in marketplace listings. Come down hard on those who misuse this to give incorrect information.
  • Work with content creators, provide them with the proper documentation and honest to god tips for effectively working within the new limits. Don't make them try and figure it out on their own.
  • Give everyone a grace period during which they can adapt. I'm talking a year or two AFTER the new tools are all in place. "Here's the new limits that are coming so you can see how you'll be affected. Don't worry about it yet. Content creators know these changes are coming, too, and they know they'll need to change how they make content in order to remain competitive." 

With a plan like this outline, it might make changes more feasible and palatable to the existing user base. 

I am not a creator or a designer, so the first two points are ones that would be important to me.  Right now, I do not really understand why my onion skin mesh body is not OK (or why something else would be better, or in what way it would be better, explained in a way that I can understand).  The only number that I know I can easily see and understand what is a good range or what is a bad range, is the ARC reading, and I think I generally stay in acceptable ranges - at least the best I can understand as acceptable.  

If tools were introduced to who triangles and texture memory, there should also be easy guidelines for people like me to be able to know if a reading is acceptable or not.  (For example, I see the new section in the FS build menu regarding mesh and LOD's, but I really can't tell just by looking at those numbers if they are good or bad for a particular item - I still rely on seeing the item rezzed out and looking at it from various distances to see if it's acceptable for me or not).  

If I have to be an expert in understanding how mesh is created, or triangle counts in mesh, or VRAM usage, just in order to choose furnishings and clothes for my avatar to go out exploring, etc., inworld, than that would make being inworld a chore for me, rather than being a relaxing enjoyment. 

Edited by moirakathleen
added an additional thought

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Before even that, I kept trying to tell the Lindens that such a complexity cap really should be a part of mesh before that was released. Because it was pretty painfully obvious that everyone would want to use mesh.

Do you even realize most "complexity offenders" don't even wear mesh?

I'm outa here, this thread is getting ridiculous - if you all know better, please team up and build your own BETTER GRID™and leave us in peace...

Edited by Fionalein
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i am pretty sure LL are never going to put caps on avatars

they made jelly dolls, and block, and reworked the viewer code so that blocked avatar wearables can no longer exhaust memory and crash us

ps

i am a bling bunny. I have never seen a attachment point I never liked, and I already ran out of layers just on applying my makeup. Annnnd if I aren't wearing 9 point lights, 1 soft light and  and 2 particle streamers then I feel pretty much under-dressed :D  I have only a GTX660. ALM on. It goes good enough. In really busy places goes about 15-25 FPS which is ok for me . At home by myself with shadows on and a zillion alpha trees then 25-45. Up in the sky then maxxes out at 60FPS because I have synced my screen to that 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Now if only we could apply that logic at everyone we think of must have completely lost their mind, ... Sorry Coffee, yelling at the majority of SL's moneymaking machine will not get you where you want...

They are responsible for the mess we have today. There is no technical solution for overly detailed mesh assets that doesn't involve not using those assets. I own shoes that contain more geometry than an entire scene in a triple A game title. This is simply unacceptable.

24 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

I don't see this 'forcing' as anything that would go over well.   I also don't think that 1 mesh body model would satisfy all users - if that was the case there would not be so many different mesh bodies on the market now, with so many variations of shapes.

The variety exists in part because of the limitations of aftermarket bodies.

Variety might not as important as you think, we're all walking around with the exact same catwa face. No really .. 

24 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

A "clothing fit shape" would need to be very flexible if it was going to work for all existing mesh clothing.   I have trouble seeing how one generic body could be made to work for existing clothes made for current specific bodies.  I also don't think you could 'force' creators to make clothes for a new body - even if it was the starter body.  There was a period when the starter avatars were mesh body style (not compatible with system clothing, if I recall correctly) and I do not remember seeing third party clothing being made for them.

The replacement starter avatars was the Labs way of attempting to show us how they envisioned mesh bodies to be done. Much the same ways as done in commercial game titles, your body and clothing are one single asset. They really didn't plan on us making a million individually rigged clothing attachments. I'd really just write those off as a failed experiment.

I'm talking about forcing a full replacement for the system avatar, something competitive with current mesh bodies in terms of poly count without onion skins and with materials.

24 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

What about non-human forms?  I've seen some mesh dragon avatars that have come in with a complexity number over 400K.

Because they were not made with SL in mind. Any content that is not fit for the purpose or the medium is junk, simple as that. There is no reason why a well optimized dragon avatar is impossible.

24 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

I don't know that it's a fair statement to say that all content creators, given no limits, will create items of limitless complexity. I also don't know if anything that's been suggested would stop the importing of mesh content from other sources.  

It seems like what is being suggested, in my opinion, would drive off many people - both users and creators.

Right now were in a performance black hole. It's not going to get better. There is no magic that can make the viewer run twice the speed.

The VAST MAJORITY of SL users are using intel or mobile GPU's. We're hemorrhaging users because they simply can't do anything meaningful in SL due to the insane complexity of the content being uploaded. This is not going to change and object complexity is increasing constantly.

There is no answer that isn't going to hurt.

Just wait till we all have animesh pets ... it's going to be brutal.

12 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

An alternative to a grace period, or in addition to one, for any sort of new avatar complexity restriction would be tying those restrictions to new must-have features

Realistically, if LL were to announce "System avatar 2.0" today, it would be 8+ months away from deployment on the live grid with a significant amount of time dedicated to tuning the system hand in hand with content creators. That's your grace period.

Must have doesn't have to be some extra shiny, it really can be .. you must have this because in 8 months, it's going to be impractical.

2 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

Right now, I do not really understand why my onion skin mesh body is not OK (or why something else would be better, or in what way it would be better, explained in a way that I can understand).  The only number that I know I can easily see and understand what is a good range or what is a bad range, is the ARC reading, and I think I generally stay in acceptable ranges - at least the best I can understand as acceptable.  

Your onion skin body is bad in several ways. First, it's a little over detailed and the weighting is incorrect, the differences in bodies tends to be more about variation in weighting than anything else. The real kicker is that you aren't just wearing one over detailed mesh, you are wearing several of them stacked together like Russian nesting dolls. .. So take a "litte bad" and multiply it by the number of layers.

 

2 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

If tools were introduced to who triangles and texture memory, there should also be easy guidelines for people like me to be able to know if a reading is acceptable or not. 

That would only be visible to you after the fact. Would you buy a house in SL without knowing it's Li till you got it home and tried to rez it ?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not like all this talk of a forced ARC limit. For one, WHOSE limits? You know damn well there's folk with a grudge against non-human avatars or a particular mesh body and will gladly try to shoehorn everybody else into a specific aesthetic if they can get away with it. Or there are people who will happily force people to dump items older than a certain arbitrarily set date because they think it's 'ugly', 'inefficient', or 'holding SL back'.

You can do better with actual education than forcing it. Myself, I've deleted several old avatars for high complexity, and I am slowly getting new hairs to replace some sculpt complexity bombs. I think I've been doing pretty well so far.

Thing is, there is no one magic solution to this. There's a lot of factors here, and to focus on just one thing ain't gonna cut it. Even so, I still think reminding people SL is still here should be enough.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Phorumities said:

so what would a reasonable max avatar complexity be if they were gonna cap it?

I'm usually around 100k but everyone would scream.... its your horrible flexi prim hair thats lagging the sim and destroying our second life.

not to mention 150 scripts 

*rolls eyes*

100k Complexity is fine. Firestorm is set to something like 350k viewable by default. You’re walking around at a third of that. I usually drop mine down to 200k, just because it runs a little faster.

I wouldn’t worry about being at 100k at all. If somebody can’t see you at 100k they aren’t seeing too many Avis anyway.

Setting the cap to some arbitrary number probably would cause them to lose users. They let that genie out of the bottle a looong time ago and it’s going to be hard to put back. They did the right thing by making complexity an optional thing. That’s about as good as it’s going to get.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Magnek Fang said:

I do not like all this talk of a forced ARC limit.

Pick one.

  • SL is a social platform where avatars amass together in groups and do whatever they do.
  • SL is an avatar dress up platform for taking still pictures.
5 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

100k Complexity is fine.

No it's not. It's just a nice round number on a scale that goes up to an arbitrary value.

A good complexity would be more like 30K (and that's still overly generous).

Edited by CoffeeDujour
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...