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Not for the folks that are there,  but possibly for the folks who are not and curious, I have started a journal of my adventures (somewhat on the techie side) for anyone interested.   In blog form so backwards by day :D.   This is today's adventures where I learned some can and can't dos. 

https://chicatebbesplace.blogspot.com/2018/07/physics-and-all-that-jazz-day-3.html

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Now that you've been doing some building over there, could you please comment on the level of detail system? How much of the work do you do, and how much is done for you? Could we see your building at low-LOD? Thanks.

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On 7/31/2018 at 12:57 AM, Chic Aeon said:

Not for the folks that are there,  but possibly for the folks who are not and curious, I have started a journal of my adventures (somewhat on the techie side) for anyone interested.   In blog form so backwards by day :D.   This is today's adventures where I learned some can and can't dos. 

https://chicatebbesplace.blogspot.com/2018/07/physics-and-all-that-jazz-day-3.html

Don’t leave us!

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Don’t leave us!

LOL. Not leaving. Just taking August off and vacationing with "new tech". I am SO seducable. :D

Still here for IMs and such.  But thanks. 

1 hour ago, animats said:

Now that you've been doing some building over there, could you please comment on the level of detail system? How much of the work do you do, and how much is done for you? Could we see your building at low-LOD? Thanks.

Wow I got double quotes by accident (so not good at that).

I can comment although my opinion may change as I get smarter. I have made and uploaded about a dozen things. Some jewelry (that vanity thing) and a home and decor set (new out today at a gacha :D) that will be my first "experience". 

image.thumb.png.a33fd09e5886b246e95ca139229ed959.png

This is what I am working on now. I am as far out in the default template as I can get. You can see everything that I have placed clearly including a small path light with lantern (you obviously can't see the lantern clearly as it is too far away).

Someone else (SL- Sansar - Cloud Party) mentioned LOD issues but I don't have any. I am guessing (mind you day 5 here) that the issue arises when someone uploads some heavy mesh (unfortunately that seems to plague Sansar too -- even at this early date). The uploader will try and optimize the mesh -- presumably so that a 4000 triangle stool doesn't upload at that obscene number B|.

 

THAT could certainly cause issues. 

I spotted that feature the first time I uploaded so I turned it off and it stays off unless you turn it on again. MIND YOU (that Universal you) I am FOR that feature. I make pretty low poly mesh, certainly lower than much of that produced in SL or likely Sansar from the screenshots I am seeing) -- not as low a ChinRey's of course, but still very low. 

So, if youf topology is good and your mesh low density it doesn't seem like there is an issue. It uploads well. 

On thing The Lab did in Sansar was to limit the texture loads. The largest png you can upload is 4096 which sounds huge and it is. But you can only upload ONE texture per mesh object (linksets can have more but they have their own issue of no physics (collision there) mesh.  

That's a GOOD thing I think but I am having to remap and sometimes rebake my mesh to get it there. If it is a simple object there would be no issues, but I didn't start out simply, I went for the challenging stuff first LOL.

I am not sure what happens to things on lower graphics settings (just of late (like the last update) you can lower you graphics settings to medium or low) but this seems to be a long time issue from comments that I hear so I am thinking that wouldn't change. 

So YES, you do not declare your LODs on upload or make custom LOD models (I am well-known for avoid that anyway). Again, it all comes down to how well your topology was made for the object you are uploading.  

You still need to upload physics models (optional but I do it on everything as I LIKE furniture you bump into and with no physics model - no bumping AND harder on the system).   I am not sure if you need to align your physics model exactly to your mesh and apply location, rotation and scale but I have been doing it that way and successfully. You can SEE your physics easily in the editing choices by simply turning that on. Very handy.

So I really don't think it is any EASIER to make mesh in Sansar than SL. The rules are slightly different, but the basic rules of game asset mesh still apply --- as they would in any platform.

Hope that was useful info! 

 

PS. That house and shed (one build) weighs in at 15 in SL so you know it is low poly. The landform which COULD be up to 5000 tris (I think it was tris) is 326 ^^. It uploaded super easily with no changes. I just attached a tiling texture (no tiling though) to it on upload. I may play around with that a bit later as there isn't a normal map (those work MUCH BETTER in SANSAR) and I could try a larger texture for finer detail. But still I was happy with it.  Perfect physics and your feet turn at an angle to the slope (oh my). 

PS2 (so much to say): According to the knowledge base LOD (I don't think it actually mentions LODs in the article) are made automatically dependent on SIZE AND COMPLEXITY (if I am remembering that correctly).  Not exactly sure how that works at this point. My earrings in the photo are very very low poly mesh -- especially for earrings -- from Cloud Party (new textures) and I haven't noted them disappearing at any distance. 

Edited by Chic Aeon
spelling and adding info
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Don't worry about VR goggles, we'll all eventually be wired directly into the matrix... hey, what is this red pill?

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By the way. PC desktop only here :D.  Presumably (this from a two year old veteran) you can do "almost" everything now with a PC. 

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7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

By the way. PC desktop only here :D.  Presumably (this from a two year old veteran) you can do "almost" everything now with a PC. 

You can do everything but the most important thing :)

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I think they need to fix their declining player base before starting new projects. Second life fails to recognize poor marketing tactics and the game despite the technological advances, the marketing makes this game appear out dated. When people think of second life in real life they cringe. 

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

You can do everything but the most important thing :)

Well our ideas might be different about the important parts. This is a G rated platform though so I going to go with control the atmosphere in a god-like manner for taking extraordinary photos :D. 

Actually I spied some tiny arrows in the sky the other day (can't find them again now but assume I will bump into them again eventually) and I am GUESSING that will let you change the "sun" around in EDIT mode. Still not that Windlight magic. BUT that does give creators control over what folks see and I am very much for that part of the deal.   

 

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14 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:
15 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

You can do everything but the most important thing :)

Well our ideas might be different about the important parts. This is a G rated platform though so I going to go with control the atmosphere in a god-like manner for taking extraordinary photos :D. 

Actually I spied some tiny arrows in the sky the other day (can't find them again now but assume I will bump into them again eventually) and I am GUESSING that will let you change the "sun" around in EDIT mode. Still not that Windlight magic. BUT that does give creators control over what folks see and I am very much for that part of the deal.   

lol well I was referring to VR and not 'that'......although I have to say I find Sansar much more erotic than SL with it's enhanced attention to sensory detail. VR focuses on how we we experience our self & surroundings as real.

Yes...that backdrop we can choose in Sansar...I love it. It's the reason I fell in love with skyboxes and is mostly what I create in SL. It has been so frustrating to always have that big bright ocean in the background of every painting, ruining the effect of a dark,mysterious forest or fantasy environment not suited for the tropics. In Sansar, we can achieve the themed atmosphere we want!

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Posted (edited)

I have been working in Sansar every day all day for two weeks now. My experience (mostly items I had made for SL or other platforms and updated) is almost complete. I have had a great time building and I love the look. 

To answer @animats question more fully now that I know more -- I do not believe Sansar is any easier for uploading mesh than Second Life. Indeed the uploader is picker in that any unused materials OR UV maps (just discovered that today) left in your file when you make your model to export will cause grave issues. 

That's not a bad thing. It is easy to fix those issues in a few clicks once you know they are required. And adding those steps to my workflow will make my blender files neater for both platforms.  It's nothing you would see in a finished product, but neatness is a good thing. 

I have built my first experience much like I would build a quarter sim installation in SL. Sometimes the textures were a bit larger and I added normal maps to quite a few items, but all in all I wasn't trying for "new", just "prettier". And prettier it is all because of the atmosphere. Turn that off (availability in edit mode) and SL looks better - LOL.

In general I made my build with "game assets" in mind. I believe it will load quickly even for those with less than stellar download speeds. I won't know that for sure until published. I doubt I will redo it if it is slower than I would like --- other than turning off some normal maps perhaps. Either way it is a good benchmark as to what you can do for good loading times. 

 

5b6e48dd567c2_bread200.thumb.jpg.b39fe45855d23a8ec81baae87c12dda3.jpg

And that brings me to my biggest worry about Sansar -- and nothing new here.  The loading times can be painful even with a 20mps connection (very good for my part of the world).  I went to a much advertised privately built experience this afternoon as a test of the cache system which someone told me would make it difficult for me to actually KNOW how fast my experience would load.

I clicked on ENTER and waited. I waited TWELVE FULL MINUTES  with the "loading assets" only half way done before I gave up and went out to water the garden. When I came back 20 minutes later I had arrived.  To TEST (you know how I like to test) I exited the scene, closed the Sansar viewer and waiting a minute or two then logged in again directly to that experience thinking it would load faster.  The bottom line? Well I waited twelve minutes again and then closed the viewer.

IF this doesn't get better, I can't see Sansar going too far. The official Sansar Studios sites I have visited load in about two minutes for me -- this with a couple of SL avatars on as well. That's fine. I can live with that. Some private experiences were in that same timeframe. They were small and not too exciting but at least I wasn't going out making breakfast and washing dishes while I waited to visit.

I guess it is no surprise that some folks are going overboard on "pretty" and yes the sim was pretty, just not worth waiting half an hour for.  So MIDDLE GROUND. That's what I am going for. I am hoping (and I will likely put in a request) that LL might add icons on the "desktop friendly" quickly downloading experiences. If not, I can see folks coming in to try and leaving lickety slipt. Honestly I would NOT have waited all that time for the scene to open had I not been testing.  

I am still spending my entire month of August over there. I have a ton of stuff to upload to the store (figured it would be better to have a link to see things as I always like to SEE things). I don't expect to sell a bunch now. I am there for the future, much like Kitely keeps sending me checks most weeks *wink*.   

After that I will play with more hair and jewelry just for fun.

PS. think I figured out the problem with the house from hell upload -- a multiple UV map thing and the Sansar uploader takes the FIRST of your UVmaps and not the one USED and turned on --- so now I know and I will likely remake. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe not :D. 

Edited by Chic Aeon

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Ouch.

One problem we're running into in this business is that it takes more bandwidth to download assets for local rendering than it does to send high-definition video to the user. The future of this stuff may be rendering on the server.

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1 hour ago, animats said:

One problem we're running into in this business is that it takes more bandwidth to download assets for local rendering than it does to send high-definition video to the user. The future of this stuff may be rendering on the server.

This was tried for SL. It's very expensive and no one was prepared to pay for it. bandwidth is not the same as streaming rendered content, not even close .. not to mention the latency involved would kill the entire premise of Sansar being a VR platform.

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3 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

This was tried for SL. It's very expensive and no one was prepared to pay for it.

I know. You can get mobile access to SL right now that way, but it's expensive.

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As an avid vr user I still find my interest in Sansar remains at zero. I frequent quite a few vr forums Sansar gets mentioned occasionally and largely gets treated with derision. If it can't interest vr users then its a big fat fail as concurrent user numbers seem to bear out.

Frankly I think any creator building for Sansar is likely to see little return

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

As an avid vr user I still find my interest in Sansar remains at zero. I frequent quite a few vr forums Sansar gets mentioned occasionally and largely gets treated with derision. If it can't interest vr users then its a big fat fail as concurrent user numbers seem to bear out.

Frankly I think any creator building for Sansar is likely to see little return

Well it seems like The Lab has figured out the VR part of the equation isn't going to fly -- at least in the near future.  Everything works great (as much as beta works great) in desktop mode and there are no issues with building that way that I can find.  Since they also lowered the bar for graphics in a recent update (choices of low-med-high) that also let's more folks try things out. 

That doesn't solve those 30 minute downloads though :D.  To be fair I found some really nice experiences (some made by Lindens) that loaded in two minutes. I can deal with that. My favorite so far is the Zen garden but I really like the underground part better than the above ground. Still it loads well with TONS of stuff - --- so it is doable.

And no, I would not advise content creators to come to Sansar looking to make money now.  I wouldn't advise them to go to Opensim either (although there are other reasons there :D).  But for a place to play and learn new things and create your worlds for free, it's great.   I will be putting a lot of things in the store (I don't think the earlier limits are in effect any longer) just so that there is content. Not the first platform I have done that in LOL.  Just trying to be supportive. 

 

Right now if you don't build it is pretty difficult to put together a home of any kind.  So until that happens, regular folks won't be doing much.  So far as the VR crowd goes, I have no plans to join. So I am making my scenes for myself and other desktop users. 

Works for me. 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well it seems like The Lab has figured out the VR part of the equation isn't going to fly -- at least in the near future.  Everything works great (as much as beta works great) in desktop mode and there are no issues with building that way that I can find.  Since they also lowered the bar for graphics in a recent update (choices of low-med-high) that also let's more folks try things out. 

Even those who use VR regularly, mostly, not all, use desktop while in edit mode to build out experiences.

That doesn't solve those 30 minute downloads though :D.  To be fair I found some really nice experiences (some made by Lindens) that loaded in two minutes. I can deal with that. My favorite so far is the Zen garden but I really like the underground part better than the above ground. Still it loads well with TONS of stuff - --- so it is doable.

The lab is still working on optimization to make download rates faster. To be honest, I used to be able to download most experiences rather quickly; however, recent updates have changed this. I'm not sure if it's because builders aren't keeping check on the complexity in their scenes or if it's a server problem. I'm hoping that things go back to the faster times we were experiencing only a few months ago.

And no, I would not advise content creators to come to Sansar looking to make money now.  I wouldn't advise them to go to Opensim either (although there are other reasons there :D).  But for a place to play and learn new things and create your worlds for free, it's great.   I will be putting a lot of things in the store (I don't think the earlier limits are in effect any longer) just so that there is content. Not the first platform I have done that in LOL.  Just trying to be supportive. 

I have a small store in Sansar. I've made enough money from sales to pay for my purchase of Marvelous Designer. So I'm happy with my sales.

Right now if you don't build it is pretty difficult to put together a home of any kind.  So until that happens, regular folks won't be doing much.  So far as the VR crowd goes, I have no plans to join. So I am making my scenes for myself and other desktop users. 

If you visit my experience, Serenity Shore https://atlas.sansar.com/experiences/debibaskerville/serenity, you'll see an experience that 99% of the content came from the store. So even those who do not create can easily find enough in the store to build out a very nice home experience. 

Works for me. 

 

Edited by Blush Bravin

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57 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well it seems like The Lab has figured out the VR part of the equation isn't going to fly -- at least in the near future.  Everything works great (as much as beta works great) in desktop mode and there are no issues with building that way that I can find.  Since they also lowered the bar for graphics in a recent update (choices of low-med-high) that also let's more folks try things out. 

 

So its gone pancake mode mostly? That to me means its even less worth going there as I can get anything Sansar offers already in SL. What actually is the point of sansar now?

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43 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I have a small store in Sansar. I've made enough money from sales to pay for my purchase of Marvelous Designer. So I'm happy with my sales.

That's great and as I said I am not expecting any great sales right away (I have had some items so no longer broke :D).  I think the person commenting was referring to those of us that make a living in Second Life :D.   That was my take anyway.   

 

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Just now, Chic Aeon said:

That's great and as I said I am not expecting any great sales right away (I have had some items so no longer broke :D).  I think the person commenting was referring to those of us that make a living in Second Life :D.   That was my take anyway.   

 

Oh I know. There's no way to make a living in Sansar now. But considering the amount of time I've put into it, and also that I've learned so much by just being there, I'm really happy with the outcome so far. Learning the difference between texturing in SL and Sansar was a real eye opener. I feel like I understand texturing so much better now by working with PBR texturing. I am super happy to see you getting involved and posting about your experience in using Sansar. Keep it up!! :D

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5 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

So its gone pancake mode mostly? That to me means its even less worth going there as I can get anything Sansar offers already in SL. What actually is the point of sansar now?

They are not giving up on VR. The intention all along was to create a platform that worked well in VR but also not to forget desktop users along the way. So stay tuned. It's still very early in Sansar development.

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