mikka Luik Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Only Colon I trust (to be a bit of a wally) is a Sgt in the Watch. Carry on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Levenque Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 59 minutes ago, Klytyna said: Balls indeed... Mr Colon was no "Navigator", a Navigator wouldn't have made the errors he did... Strictly speaking he wasn't an Explorer either, explorers go out looking for NEW lands... Colon just thought he'd found a shortcut to one already known, that would bypass the trade tariffs and embargoes of the middle east, and allow for BIG profits on Far East Goods... Not Navigator, not Explorer, just a Merchant with poor math skills... First of all, he estimated the journey West to South East Asia at about 3700 km... Instead of 20,000 km... He also estimated that the East Indies, and Japan were further north than they really are. Not "A Landmass", South east Asia, because as we've pointed out, he could barely count... Yes, I know. I covered that in my comment regarding the size of the earth and again in my reply to your first diatribe. Old news. I'm Ex Navy... Trust me I know what the terms originated as. Groovy. I also know that the basic principle of navigation at that time, was, still, to sail north or south till you were at the same latitude as your target, then sail east or west till you bumped into it. The same technique used by the Scandinavians, when sailing from Norway to Iceland, Greenland, and even Vinland, half a millennium before Colon. Tools such as the cross-staff, the astrolabe or the quadrant (a precursor of the octants and sextants). All of that is irrelevant to the issue except that I should have excepted the Scandinavians when I referenced Europe. I'm also aware that deep sea fishermen from Bristol were catching cod off the grand banks in the 1480's source?. And the Portuguese had already reahed the Cape of Good Hope, and were exploring the Indian Ocean, following the currents and tradewinds. And for the record, Colon wasn't the first European to sail anywhere by "not hugging the coast". Try the discovery of the Azores, in the 1420's, for example... Or the Portuguese again, discovering the currents and trade winds of the North and South Atlantic, in the 15th C, making two 'easy' routes for heading west and east from Europe, to the Azores and beyond, and for accessing west Africa. To hear you go on, one would think colon was some kind of genius, who invented the idea of sailing out of sight of land... He wasn't and didn't. The Azores were known and being settled before 1492. When they were discovered and by whom is still in doubt. One well-known history says a ship caught in a storm on the way to Lisbon was the first landfall. Hardly intentional. Not he... The Sailing Master, and the ships Captain, not Colon...source? Mine says Columbus. ... Something not written by a Yank Admiral and doesn't puff up Colon? Be wary of history books written in the first half of the 20th C by Military Officers. Syme's "The Roman Revolution" for example, is very clearly the product of a British Officer, from the Age of the Raj, and tends to colour everything in that light.... Unsurprising as it was written in 1933. I'm sure an American Admiral's 1942 work on "The Hero who discovered America!" is equally flawed. Thanks, but I wouldn't trust an American Admiral to find the "pointy end of the boat" that somebody with a lower rank and more brains is driving for him... Which brings us back to Colon... He might have been granted a title of "Admiral" for the voyage, but is maritime expertise seems to have been limited to saying... "Hey yous, El Capitano... Aima da pointy enda thata way! Capiche? Are we there yet?" Yes, your disdain for America and Americans is something we have come to expect. I know it has nothing to do with your Britishness, since so many SL'ers are Brits and seem to get along with us just fine. I give these comments as much credence as I would theories on race relations from a guy driving a pickup with a Confederate battle flag flying. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansiri Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 "Can our actions today...." Yes they can after 100 years and more. They can it even today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionalein Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dillon Levenque said: source? Mine says Columbus. Are you really picking fights over a guy that lived in a time when people had different names in different tongues? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#Early_life Edited July 7, 2018 by Fionalein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said: Oh! Hawaiians! hehehehe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klytyna Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 4 hours ago, Dillon Levenque said: Not he... The Sailing Master, and the ships Captain, not Colon...source? Mine says Columbus. Standard maritime practice during the Age of Sail... Many Captains were "Gentlemen" and didn't know SQUAT about the techy stuff needed to make the ship go, so they would have a "Sailing Master", an actual professional, who knew all that complicated stuff. Secondly... You need to understand the difference between Post Officers and Flag Officers. Post Officers are posted to a ship, it's their ship, if they are the most senior Post officer on that ship, and they get called Captain, even if that is higher than their actual rank (smaller ships for example commanded by Commanders, or lower) A Post officer is in total control of the ship. Flag Officers are basically guests on board ships, they transfer their Flag to a ship and it becomes their temporary HQ. Generally Admirals can give orders to Captains, but... The ship, and it's safety are the responsibility of the Captain, and since, at that time many Admirals were "nobles" who didn't know squat, about the techy business of Sailing, they could and did tell Admirals where to stick it on occasions, albeit politely. ... Guess what the FIRST thing Colon did when he landed in the West Indies was... "The indigenous people he encountered, the Lucayan, Taíno, and Arawak, were peaceful and friendly. Noting their gold ear ornaments, Columbus took some of the Arawaks prisoner and insisted that they guide him to the source of the gold." WHERE-O GOLD-O *smack* OWWW! [HEATHEN FOREIGN GIBBERISH]! 4 hours ago, Dillon Levenque said: Yes, your disdain for America and Americans is something we have come to expect Judging the past by current standards... And Popular American Historical Revisionism. America has spent the last two centuries whitewashing it's own past to better fit with "Manifest Destiny! Murica Hell Yeah! Eat me you Commies!" (tm) dogma. Colon never even SAW North America, let alone set foot there, but, you hail him as the Divinely Inspired, and Heroic Genius who DISCOVERED America! Despite the fact that he was convinced he'd found part of Asia... "The scholar Amerigo Vespucci, who sailed to America in the years following Columbus's first voyage, was the first to speculate that the land was not part of Asia but in fact constituted some wholly new continent previously unknown to Eurasians." Why do you think it's CALLED America? Nothing to do with Colon. "Historically, the English had downplayed Columbus and emphasized the role of the Venetian John Cabot as a pioneer explorer, but for the emerging United States, Cabot made for a poor national hero." Why does the man who landed in Newfoundland, make a poor hero for North America, compared to somebody who didn't even know it existed? "Cabot went to Bristol to arrange preparations for his voyage. Bristol was the second-largest seaport in England. From 1480 onward it had supplied several expeditions to look for Hy-Brazil. According to Celtic legend, this island lay somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean.[24] There was widespread belief among merchants in the port that Bristol men had discovered the island at earlier date but then lost track of it.[25][26] Ruddock had contended in a private 1988 letter to a colleague, Quinn, that she had found evidence in Italian archives that Bristol men had discovered North America pre-1470." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cabot ... Why all the adulation for Colon, and his failed math, and none for Cabot? Because he was working for the English? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 7 hours ago, Klytyna said: Colon never even SAW North America, let alone set foot there, but, you hail him as the Divinely Inspired, and Heroic Genius who DISCOVERED America! If I knew anyone like this, who believed this, I would shun them. Surely, you know that “Columbus Day” has been replaced by many, in many places, with “Indinginous Peoples Day”? A lot of Americans are more woke than you give us credit for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 54 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said: If I knew anyone like this, who believed this, I would shun them. Surely, you know that “Columbus Day” has been replaced by many, in many places, with “Indinginous Peoples Day”? A lot of Americans are more woke than you give us credit for. Also, if you look up the history Columbus Day is effectively, "Italians and Catholics Really Aren't So Bad" day -- around the turn of the 20th century "Columbus" was sort of a codeword for "American Catholic", hence "Knights of Columbus." As late as the 1920's there was major controversy over the fact that presidential candidate Alfred E. Smith was Catholic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 9 hours ago, Klytyna said: "Cabot went to Bristol to arrange preparations for his voyage. Bristol was the second-largest seaport in England. From 1480 onward it had supplied several expeditions to look for Hy-Brazil. According to Celtic legend, this island lay somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean.[24] There was widespread belief among merchants in the port that Bristol men had discovered the island at earlier date but then lost track of it.[25][26] Ruddock had contended in a private 1988 letter to a colleague, Quinn, that she had found evidence in Italian archives that Bristol men had discovered North America pre-1470." Lost track of a continent. Now that's hard-core. Makes me feel better about that morning and my car keys... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angeoco Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 9 hours ago, Klytyna said: Ruddock had contended in a private 1988 letter to a colleague, Quinn, that she had found evidence in Italian archives that Bristol men had discovered North America pre-1470." If they did, then they were a bit late. Ireland's St. Brendan probably discovered it nearly a thousand years earlier. [1] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conifer Dada Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 Everyone alive today is a beneficiary of history. They are alive because of history. If history had been different, (whether good or bad) they would probably never have been born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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