gacha LL Policy for Gacha Games is a need

[sailor36]

Hello. Since everyone started to make their own gachas in events or shops I think Linden Lab needs to make an assessment to release a gacha policy. The gachas are being such low quality but above this there are many misleading problems with creators and events from the point of the view of players. People are spending their money, but sometimes they get useless or worthless items. Also when a problem occured, they are facing with a no customer service or a rude creator. I have collected many examples below. Hopefully we canmake the gacha community a better place together with buyers, resellers, creators and Linden Lab.

1. Gacha is a game of chance. Players are not able pull a spesific item in the machine. That's why all duplicates must be sellable or tradeable for other items from that machine or different machines, so they all need to be transfer.

2. Gachas can be sold inworld or on MP and pricing may differ from seller to seller. It is totally up to pull count of the seller. This is totally connected to the first rule.

3. Gacha items must be rezzable. Since they are only transfer items, no rez scripts are unfair inside of the items. The unpacked items can be rezzed and lost by mistake.

4. Gacha creators must offer/share the prize info/photo with community inworld. Especially if they are wearables. Also event owners may share entire gacha key textures in their groups. Gacha key textures are for those gacha items, they are not art works.

5. Gacha items/sets mustn't be sold seperately in copy versions by the creators. Saying again, gachas are game of chance. Some sets take (ex.) 8k to complete for a reseller but when the creator sell a copy version for 6k, this totally kills the fun of gacha. Trying to cut the income of resellers won't give the creator anything. Because most of the players of the machines are resellers. Exchanging the single transfer items or full sets for copy versions seems fair. Because it is up to player's choice.

6. Exchange tickets for copy version of gacha items mustn't be allowed on rezzable items. All the items in gacha must be useful in my opinion. Also items that are useful only in copy versions mustn't be put into gacha machines for the same reason. Example:

Some merchants have some vehicles/homes or rideable stuff which are only useful in copy versions because of the scripts. Those items mustn't be gacha items in my opinion. (I wish I could name some of those but probably most of the people who have knowledge about gacha items will understand this.)

7. There are some resellers change the colour, size or link the items to be sold together and sell them like different items without giving information. Since they are same items actually, this is not an acceptable situation for buyer, so gachas are better stay only transfer/no mod and single item for each pull. I know mod items are fun but this is only the working method to prevent this. Creators may offer copy/mod versions.

8. Building items like fences, walls, wall lamps, roads, pavements etc. mustn't be in gacha games. To tell the truth if I need a double of same item in a gacha machine to make the complete set to look real complete is no fun.

9. All the scripts, animations used in gacha items must be transfer. Because when the item rezzed or worn, it turns to no copy/no mod/no trans. Especially some skin makers choose this way on their appliers to prevent applied skin and copied head. Some of the creators don't even take the trouble to box their gacha items. I had many the skin appliers rezzed mistakenly, so I had many women skins I had no use turned into no trans to be deleted and I lost my lindens.

Examples:

Skin Applier example

Skin Applier Example 2

Skin Applier Example 3

Exchange tickets have better usage for skin appliers. Exchange tickets can be sold, but skin/eye/tattoo appliers can't be sold by this way.

*** (Exchange Ticket) Catwa/Omega Appliers - 21 RARE

10. If a set is officially retired (while the event continues it must be said by event page), it mustn't be put out even after years.

11. Each gacha item must have their own usage. People do not have to complete those sets to use useless HUDs. HUDs which work with different items in the same machine cannot be sold as seperate common or rare. This looks so greedy.

Some machines which can be played for 75-100L for each pull, have HUDs as a gacha item, even some are rares. Rare HUD working with a rare item, common HUD working with rare item etc. I just want you to realise. You are the player of the machine, and machine has got 2 common HUDs which are only working with the rare item in the machine. You pulled 15 pieces until you get the rare item, and 8 of the items are HUDs. What will you do the other HUDs?

12. Vendor key textures or the item names must be detailed about land impact counts of every gacha item in the machine. People can't check your demo places after getting in an event after hours. If you do 20Li gacha decorations for a gacha machine, players need to know about it.

13. Gacha rare rates must be shared with customer before playing.

P.S: The very last thing is if creators have mistaken with gacha machines in a new event (leaving an empty box, missing item in the machine etc.), i feel like they can fix this in a better way. I know creators are human beings and can be mistaken. But players are humans and most are dumping their all money into those machines, they need a better care.

If there is a failed delivery, creators need to stop dumping random commons to players, paying it back is a better solution.

If there is an empty box, it needs to be fixed fix it asap and that item needs to be sent to the people who demanded them.

If there is a missing rare, paying at least 10% back to the player, or sending that rare item to each player may work.

If there is a missing common, sending at least one of that item to every player before they ask is more fair.

To creators: Do not make your customers wait for a reply from you for weeks/months. This is your shop and you make real money, so people spend real money. None of those above hurt you, but the players. If you can't have customer care, leave it to better people. No customer care, no fun, believe me. Thank you.

I'll add more things if I see anything else. Please share your experiences to the community here. Creators can be rude about such things, or can be so friendly. You can never know which face you will face. At least a gacha rules policy which they have to adapt their machines, would be really better.

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by sailor36
removed merchant names given

[Cindy Evanier]

You are naming and shaming merchants I think in your post.  Against forum rules and must be removed

[sailor36]

I named the merchants as examples, not for defaming them. Double checked the rules, removed the names, fixed the language I used. Thanks for the warning, I appreciate.

Edited July 3, 2018 by sailor36

[Coffee Pancake]

You really need to remove merchants names & brands.

The only rule I think the Lab could get behind is drop rates being listed before playing.

[sailor36]

I just did, checking for other things thanks for warning.

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 hours ago, sailor36 said:

People are spending their money, but sometimes they get useless or worthless items. Also when a problem occured, they are facing with a no customer service or a rude creator.

How is this any different than buying anything else in SL?  It is can often be a crap shoot - you take your chance every time you spend L$ on a creator that you don't know well and that doesn't have a demo for whatever you are buying.  I'm a firm believer in "Buyer beware"  If someone wants to take a chance on a Gatcha, then they are TAKING A CHANCE.

[Chic Aeon]

I don't play gacha machines. I sometimes buy in the aftermarket (H and G items for LEA6). I do SELL them. 

Personally I think your list of rules is so long there was no need to read them all. The Lab is NOT responsible for sales between citizens. I can't imagine that will change.

You opinion is fine as YOUR OPINION but not as rules for everyone to follow. 

 

I have a DEMO sign on every gacha set I sell (even at venues there are signs that give landmarks to the rezzed items). Most folks never to go look. What a lot of people DO DO is buy maybe three items. Then they take them home and look at them (mine are all unboxed so they could actually WEAR the item at the event to look at it if the sim was full). Then they come back later and play more (or likely some do not).  I list all the land impacts on the key. 

Personally I do NOT like no-copy items.  They are too easy to lose from inventory. When it is WITHIN the rules, I sell sets at BOTH gacha and whole sets as copy items. I don't see how this hurts the gacha market as the gachas are much cheaper. If it is perceived to be a problem, the the person that is upset can simply NOT PLAY the machine. 

Most of us are adults here. We can make our own choices and our own rules and we are RESPONSIBLE for our choices here -- just like in our corporeal world. If someone buys a poorly made gacha item, simply stop buying from that creator -- the same as we would do with items we bought off the rack in either world. 

I am 100 percent for demos. I rarely buy without seeing the item. When it do it is because I have other items from that creator and trust that the items will be good. Still, sometimes the LODs are not to my liking and I have to change use plans. So even buying in the aftermarket can be a gamble LOL>

 

And just as an aside -- even if there WERE a gacha policy plenty of creators would not follow it, just like the don't follow the other policies that are connected with the TOS. I can't see that your idea would solve anything at all.

 

[Paul Hexem]

Like it or not, the SL market is the wild west.

LL will only get involved in the bare minimum as required by law, and sometimes not even then.

[Chase01]

Linden Labs isn't responsible for the sale of any content or service between two parties. Section 1.4 of their Terms of Service makes that quite clear.

On 7/3/2018 at 1:09 PM, sailor36 said:

Saying again, gachas are game of chance. Some sets take (ex.) 8k to complete for a reseller but when the creator sell a copy version for 6k, this totally kills the fun of gacha.

In the scenario you described, a user has the opportunity to win that set, and at a price below cost. While odds will vary, it is quite possible.

 

On 7/3/2018 at 1:09 PM, sailor36 said:

Trying to cut the income of resellers won't give the creator anything.

If I'm interested in a set, I either have to play for it, trade, or buy it through the secondary market. If I buy it from someone else, I am essentially cutting out any profit the creator would have received had I played. From a business perspective, offering the set with a buyout price (along with superior permissions) is a great way to recoup some of that loss. I'd also argue that it may also prompt more users to buy the entire set.

So you're wrong to assume that creators have nothing to gain from it.

 

[animats]

See California's law on sweepstakes.

Loot boxes and gachas are on shaky legal ground. The video game industry is changing games to comply.  SL is especially risky legally because you can sell prizes and convert Linden Dollars into US dollars. If you intend to offer a gacha, get legal advice.

[OxfordLennox]

From a reseller's eye all looks good. I have been spending all of my lindens to gachas for a long time. I have seen most of them. Gachas I spent more than 100k each which were supposed to be retired turned back, met with very rude creators, spent my time to contact to the creator to solve the problem with the machine prizes and yeah I had to delete many skins, bags, shoes turned to no transfer after rezzing the item. I believe creators may choose to sell the set for a price in copy versions, but I think the sets previously sold as gachas mustn't be sold that way. Sounds tricky. Creator may choose to get at least 10k from each player or reseller -whatever you name- and when the reseller will make this amount from that set creator releases the set in copy versions. This is not a good deal. I gave up playing hard those machines some time ago.

Gacha sets are hard to complete because of the rarity of some items. I don't think most of the people answered this topic are playing gachas. Nature of gachas don't seem like to be understood by non players.

BTW after spending 8-10 hours to get in an event nobody will go out and check demos. If it is wearable, people may try the demos there. I agree with Li info must be given. If possible demo area must be in event sim.

Edited July 6, 2018 by OxfordLennox
spelling

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

The best way to get gachas to change is to vote with your lindens. Avoid the ones whose creators do things you don't like. Reward the ones who do. It's not like there's a shortage of the things to choose from.

[Fionalein]

20 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

The best way to get gachas to change is to vote with your lindens. Avoid the ones whose creators do things you don't like. Reward the ones who do. It's not like there's a shortage of the things to choose from.

Exactley, I'm more inclined to buy from creators with a exchange policy or voucher system than otherwise

[Coffee Pancake]

I have to day, despite everything raised in this thread, gatchas are still one of my fav ways to shop. If I want specific items I will get them on the SLM, otherwise a little luck is a great way of getting decorative stuff I wouldn't ordinarily buy ... especially as they tend to be mod.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

To the Op, Honestly your list is so long it seems like you are trying to introduce over complicated regulation into SL.  The only regulation required is what is mandated under law.   Anything beyond that (and what the platform needs to function commercially) would make for an over complicated TOS that would be expensive to police and manage.

Also it is my choice to swap transfer gachas for copy versions as a complimentary service and have done it for years.  Also my choice should my customers want a gacha where they can either play the machine or simply pay a bit more and get a copy mod versus versus transfer mod right out of the bat (non arcade ones due to event rules), they can.

I find it disappointing when somebody takes so much effort with a long OP but litters it with sweeping statements.  Not all merchants are rude, not all merchants provide bad customer service.  Some do, some don’t; and when you find sub par simply do not purchase from again / buy one inexpensive item first to see how comfortable you are with the merchant before investing a lot of money.

One final point as a merchant for years I have dealt with failed deliveries, wonky marketplaces and whatnot.  The good merchants tend to always pick up the slack with the platform limitations and issues.   I have spent literally hundreds of hours doing support over the past 12 years for issues in LL’s control versus my errors - it is part of what a good merchant does. We also have a policy on our picks so you can check before playing.

I think the post re loot boxes does not quite yet wander into this realm because so far this is niche versus mainstream, but it may do one day, who knows.

Anyway I am pretty sure none of these will end up in the TOS at this stage.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Charlotte Bartlett

[Chase01]

11 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

Gacha sets are hard to complete because of the rarity of some items. I don't think most of the people answered this topic are playing gachas. Nature of gachas don't seem like to be understood by non players.

But we are. The difficulty and cost associated with completing some sets can be very high. That's why having an option to buyout is so appealing. As a player, (and I am sure others would agree) I am a little leery about spending thousands of L from a random gacha reseller to purchase a set. Buying direct from the creator would give me piece of mind.

12 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

BTW after spending 8-10 hours to get in an event nobody will go out and check demos.

I wish more vendors would offer a demo for event releases at their mainstore, it would not only serve to be a convenience to customers, but also a means of generating traffic and sales as well. With that said, if there wasn't a demo available to view outside of the event; I'd wait to try it on before spending some serious money on it. Doing anything otherwise is on you.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

13 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

BTW after spending 8-10 hours to get in an event nobody will go out and check demos.

The thing about extremes is that they are almost always wrong 

Some of us will indeed take demos from an event and then come back later to buy based on the demos.

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by LittleMe Jewell

[ellestones]

6 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Some of us will indeed take demos from an event and then come back later to buy based on the demos.

 

can add me to the Some

[Sammy Huntsman]

Your first rule, stated that Gacha was a game of chance. I think an addendum needs to be added, that it should be considered part of the gaming rules. Since if you are to look at it, and a slot machine, there is no big difference. That being said, LL really needs to look at it and re evaluate the whole thing. My other big thing, is that they need to give the consumer the choice to be able to buy the full set. Instead of pulling for it, there are some creators, and events that do it. But they need to enforce it, unanimously across the board.

[Alwin Alcott]

On 6-7-2018 at 9:19 AM, OxfordLennox said:

 after spending 8-10 hours to get in

try it two days later..

it's the same as with clothes events.. go after a week, and people will still ask where you got your new outfit, because all already forgot what they bought there and been at 5 more events for new stuff..

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 7/3/2018 at 1:09 PM, sailor36 said:

Hello. Since everyone started to make their own gachas in events or shops I think Linden Lab needs to make an assessment to release a gacha policy. The gachas are being such low quality but above this there are many misleading problems with creators and events from the point of the view of players. People are spending their money, but sometimes they get useless or worthless items. Also when a problem occured, they are facing with a no customer service or a rude creator. I have collected many examples below. Hopefully we canmake the gacha community a better place together with buyers, resellers, creators and Linden Lab.

1. Gacha is a game of chance. Players are not able pull a spesific item in the machine. That's why all duplicates must be sellable or tradeable for other items from that machine or different machines, so they all need to be transfer.

2. Gachas can be sold inworld or on MP and pricing may differ from seller to seller. It is totally up to pull count of the seller. This is totally connected to the first rule.

3. Gacha items must be rezzable. Since they are only transfer items, no rez scripts are unfair inside of the items. The unpacked items can be rezzed and lost by mistake.

4. Gacha creators must offer/share the prize info/photo with community inworld. Especially if they are wearables. Also event owners may share entire gacha key textures in their groups. Gacha key textures are for those gacha items, they are not art works.

5. Gacha items/sets mustn't be sold seperately in copy versions by the creators. Saying again, gachas are game of chance. Some sets take (ex.) 8k to complete for a reseller but when the creator sell a copy version for 6k, this totally kills the fun of gacha. Trying to cut the income of resellers won't give the creator anything. Because most of the players of the machines are resellers. Exchanging the single transfer items or full sets for copy versions seems fair. Because it is up to player's choice.

6. Exchange tickets for copy version of gacha items mustn't be allowed on rezzable items. All the items in gacha must be useful in my opinion. Also items that are useful only in copy versions mustn't be put into gacha machines for the same reason. Example:

Some merchants have some vehicles/homes or rideable stuff which are only useful in copy versions because of the scripts. Those items mustn't be gacha items in my opinion. (I wish I could name some of those but probably most of the people who have knowledge about gacha items will understand this.)

7. There are some resellers change the colour, size or link the items to be sold together and sell them like different items without giving information. Since they are same items actually, this is not an acceptable situation for buyer, so gachas are better stay only transfer/no mod and single item for each pull. I know mod items are fun but this is only the working method to prevent this. Creators may offer copy/mod versions.

8. Building items like fences, walls, wall lamps, roads, pavements etc. mustn't be in gacha games. To tell the truth if I need a double of same item in a gacha machine to make the complete set to look real complete is no fun.

9. All the scripts, animations used in gacha items must be transfer. Because when the item rezzed or worn, it turns to no copy/no mod/no trans. Especially some skin makers choose this way on their appliers to prevent applied skin and copied head. Some of the creators don't even take the trouble to box their gacha items. I had many the skin appliers rezzed mistakenly, so I had many women skins I had no use turned into no trans to be deleted and I lost my lindens.

Exchange tickets have better usage for skin appliers. Exchange tickets can be sold, but skin/eye/tattoo appliers can't be sold by this way.

*** (Exchange Ticket) Catwa/Omega Appliers - 21 RARE

10. If a set is officially retired (while the event continues it must be said by event page), it mustn't be put out even after years.

11. Each gacha item must have their own usage. People do not have to complete those sets to use useless HUDs. HUDs which work with different items in the same machine cannot be sold as seperate common or rare. This looks so greedy.

Some machines which can be played for 75-100L for each pull, have HUDs as a gacha item, even some are rares. Rare HUD working with a rare item, common HUD working with rare item etc. I just want you to realise. You are the player of the machine, and machine has got 2 common HUDs which are only working with the rare item in the machine. You pulled 15 pieces until you get the rare item, and 8 of the items are HUDs. What will you do the other HUDs?

12. Vendor key textures or the item names must be detailed about land impact counts of every gacha item in the machine. People can't check your demo places after getting in an event after hours. If you do 20Li gacha decorations for a gacha machine, players need to know about it.

13. Gacha rare rates must be shared with customer before playing.

P.S: The very last thing is if creators have mistaken with gacha machines in a new event (leaving an empty box, missing item in the machine etc.), i feel like they can fix this in a better way. I know creators are human beings and can be mistaken. But players are humans and most are dumping their all money into those machines, they need a better care.

If there is a failed delivery, creators need to stop dumping random commons to players, paying it back is a better solution.

If there is an empty box, it needs to be fixed fix it asap and that item needs to be sent to the people who demanded them.

If there is a missing rare, paying at least 10% back to the player, or sending that rare item to each player may work.

If there is a missing common, sending at least one of that item to every player before they ask is more fair.

To creators: Do not make your customers wait for a reply from you for weeks/months. This is your shop and you make real money, so people spend real money. None of those above hurt you, but the players. If you can't have customer care, leave it to better people. No customer care, no fun, believe me. Thank you.

I'll add more things if I see anything else. Please share your experiences to the community here. Creators can be rude about such things, or can be so friendly. You can never know which face you will face. At least a gacha rules policy which they have to adapt their machines, would be really better.

 

How about adding, "14. If someone has a vested interest in gatcha items working in a certain way, such as their running gatcha-resale establishments, they should disclose that when they make a proposal"?

Edited July 7, 2018 by Theresa Tennyson

[OxfordLennox]

6 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

How about adding, "14. If someone has a vested interest in gatcha items working in a certain way, such as their running gatcha-resale establishments, they should disclose that when they make a proposal"?

Gachas are for reselling or trading purpose. This is why they are gachas and in transfer versions. And I don't think creators are against resellers. It is a win win.

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

try it two days later..

it's the same as with clothes events.. go after a week, and people will still ask where you got your new outfit, because all already forgot what they bought there and been at 5 more events for new stuff..

It doesn't work like this for resellers. As someone said here, market is a wild west. (=

 

I am leaving this thread, lol.

[Alwin Alcott]

8 minutes ago, OxfordLennox said:

Gachas are for reselling or trading purpose.

It doesn't work like this for resellers. As someone said here, market is a wild west. (=

gachas are to use ... that is the purpose, and for completing sets you can trade or resell it...sligthly different approach.

Also.. as you are reseller.. you blaim the people that want to avoid higher costs,( some resellers are like vultures waiting for one that's so desperate to get a set complet and ask hundreds of times more than the original value ) and like the chance to get a item themself they are in before you?....pitty but thats part of the game

[OxfordLennox]

If they were just to use, they would be sold only in copy versions. Good luck.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, OxfordLennox said:

If they were just to use, they would be sold only in copy versions. Good luck.

Funny, I have NEVER resold a gatcha in all of the years i have bought them. If i dont like what i got or if i got dupes, i trade or give them away. Realistically speaking, we are only talking about pennies per pull.