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Will LL remove the 2.5% second fee on Merchants?

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4 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

now that's none of your business and irrelevant. It's about fees

Since you are calling my attitude and some other's "arrogant" like " we are sitting on some kind of throne", i was just trying to understand your status in SL. Since you mentionned your high incomes, we are more than curious ofc.

I guess we wont know.

But notice that i never had such weekly income so iam not sure about myself beeing on the trhone

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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1 minute ago, Majestic Kohime said:

 we are more than curious ofc.

I guess we wont know.

 

irrelevant and off topic.
Nobody asked about eachothers business, it only came up because of some attitude that non creators are irrelevant second rank residents.

.. it's about fees

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This MONTH I transferred 10,000 lindens! LOL Happy with life! Despite taxation ... 
Have a good day, sweet ladies!

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51 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

The ones that aren't in your clique are outsiders?.... wow... never seen something more narrow minded. Just for your info.. only this week alone i transfered over 180.000 L$ to UDS here because of my trade and merchandise, STOP assuming people who are thinking you'r arrogant and blown up are nobody.

YOU excist by permission of your customers..never forget that.

Again, come off your throne and start walking in real.

oh god we get this card again... hey, if you leave ten others will take your place.

i think somebody is projecting here... xDhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

hahahaha i exist by permission of my customers? i wonder what you meant by that... I create because i have the need to, and rather than to keep the creations just to myself i choose to share it with others, because i know it brings joy to a lot of people and makes a lot of people just a little bit happier. I know this because of all the fanmail i have received in the course of 10+ years of creating for SL, and each and every time i get it it brings tears in my eyes to know that my creations have made somebody somewhere feel a little bit better... And before your obvious snappy remark, I sell my creations rather than just give them away for free because LL (bless them!!) have made it possible. If one fine day for some reason i cannot do that here in SL i most certainly will continue to exist doing the exact same thing elsewhere. :) but thank you for your concern.

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Psychological projection: a person who is habitually arrogant may constantly accuse other people of being arrogant.....for example bragging about withdrawing L$180.00 worth of escort tips to uds :/

yes, unfortunately I see the quotes >:(

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12 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

Psychological projection: a person who is habitually arrogant may constantly accuse other people of being arrogant.....for example bragging about withdrawing L$180.00 worth of escort tips to uds :/

yes, unfortunately I see the quotes >:(

Yeah I saw him workin' the pole @ Disneyland -- he was Grumpy Elf :)   Very lucrative, who'd think one could get $180 $L a week there. 

But I would like an explanation from you Alwin....why did you put the word 'creators' in quotes when first addressing me?

Edited by Luna Bliss
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11 hours ago, Klytyna said:

businesses have liabilities

I know that too Klytyna -- I pay taxes that are quite high, and not because I'm in such a high income tax bracket but because in the US they add 15% to taxes when one is self-employed to cover Social Security in the future (when working for a company then half of that is paid by them).

And I pay for an accountant to do my taxes...300 or 400 usd.

I pay people in SL hired for jobs, or pay for prefab content on the MP to complete some jobs.

Better internet & PC's are needed through the years.  And I'm sure there are more expenses I'm unable to think of atm.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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My loyalties mainly lie with the free-lancing artist in all worlds. Too often artists are taken advantage of -- people expect them to work for free. That's fine if a creator wants to, and if thet can afford to, but personally I need to be earning money with my time. I have health issues and so I have limited time/energy each day.

I had hoped SL could be an avenue for the freelancer, but I am prepared to accept that it might become a place where creations are free for all. There are some advantages to that -- I have struggled to create what felt right to me vs creating what might bring in more money, and this is a very uncomfortable conflict. I would like to see more people creating what they love vs creating to rake in cash -- you can tell in the work those who do the latter, and it's pretty disgusting to me.

I am fine with LL increasing their fees, I just think if they end up to taking 30% from the MP that this is way too big of a cut. I know it's speculation that it will increase to 30%, but the fact that Sansar takes that amount might be a clue.
I know a lot of creators who are 'on the line' in terms of being able to earn a living here (and by earn a living I mean verrry low wages and very high amounts of time put in each month) -- if the profit gets much lower they'll have to find work elsewhere. I would hate to see them leave, or like in Rya's case see them have far less time/energy to work here.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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Since the word 'entitlement' is being thrown around so much, it might be good to define it.

Without looking it up I'd say it means the expectation of 'getting something for nothing'.

I don't see any merchants posting in this thread so far who fit the definition of feeling 'entitled' -- instead I see hard-working merchants who could like to be compensated for their time.  I'm quite sure they exist in SL, these 'entitled' merchants,  but I don't see it here.

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Oops, this is my alt.  Forgot I was signed in as her.  My alt is a newbie, I'm not.  That's how I know how much the welcome area has changed.  I made an alt.  It's a lot of fun creating a new avatar.  I'm going to out myself here.  This is also Autumn Ehrenkranz, lol.

First of all, the biggest problem in Second Life is not the tier on the land.  It is the lack of advertising in the real world.  Very few know what I am talking about when I mention second life.  Those that do, are usually under a misconception.  The welcome area has been seriously reduced, although some lessons have been added.  The freebies are practically gone, which are what get people started in second life.  Just seeing so many of the different things second life has to offer at the welcome area made it exciting.  Then, finding out how inexpensive stuff was, even when you were paying was thrilling.  Buying that first, small, piece of land to put your free house on, setting up your free furniture, and putting on your free clothes to set out on an adventure, usually to buy more of that great stuff, was exciting.  Jumping directly into real social areas where there were hundreds of people walking around, looking in stores, meeting each other, made second life feel like a community.  Now, when you get your brand new avatar, you do not know where to go, how to meet people, or where to buy the less expensive clothes, which is where you get your feet wet.  Even now, after 14 years in SL, I can't find any places with lots of people around.  I've lost Paris, and no one is in Switzerland any more.  Everywhere I go, I have the place to myself.  

Look at the traffic at Luna Bliss, one of my all time favorites.  I don't know how she stays in business.  I guarantee it isn't because her stuff is too expensive or isn't well made.  I have bought lots of cottages, plants, and skyboxes from Luna over the years.  A traffic volume of 446 is ridiculous.The number of people in Second Life is stuck at around 40,000 per day.  Considering the number of people stuck in their homes on fixed incomes, there should be ten times that many people.

Making land cheaper isn't going to entice people to buy land, increasing costs in the marketplace is going to actively lose members, so I think SL needs to rethink their strategy again.  It would also be nice if they would provide insurance in the marketplace so that cheaters can't buy our products without validation, SL won't have to take our money back because it never got spent in the first place, and we aren't left holding the bag.   

I would buy land if I had any buyers.  I believe all of the breedable markets have been flat for a long time.  Without new blood, our markets can't increase.  Again, it's not because the developers aren't advertising, it's because SL isn't advertising.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Edited by CoyoteMage
Forgot I was logged in as an alt
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i wouldnt participate to the thread if existing solutions wouldnt exist. I wouldnt participate if i hadnt proposals and ideas.

An intelligent progressive fee system on marketplace would be a solution.

Nobody said that the casual creators would have to pay same as the biggest sellers who are almost small companies.

A progressive fee system would be like this : shops wit (for example) low amount of ITEMS on sale would pay less than those 1000+ items shops.

 

As you can state such system would permit to actually increase quality of the sold items (for example, some bg shops would start to remove those outdated old scultpy creations, and so on..).

It would be totally unfair that a shop with 1000 demos and 5000 products pays the same fees than a 100 items shop.

You are talking about real life buisness, our GOV fees are linked to our income, and in case our incomes are VERY LOW we dont pay the fee on INCOMES. SIMPLE AS THIS.

Example of equilibrated marketplace fee system:

- First threshold would be at 100 items. Under 100 items there would still be the classic 5% fee

- 100-500: a first fee which isnt abusive: 1-2% in add

- 500-1000: a little more 1-2% in add

- 1000+: 15% overall fee

This is normal that the sellers that are using the most  marketplace ressources pay also higher fees.

 

What do you think about this proposal. I think its fair. And since so many "pro fees" are quoting REAL LIFE fee system, this would totally fair that you agree with such system.

Notice tha the example concerns the number of items on the marketplace cause i think it is more clever that creators clean their outdated items by themselves and reduce overall MP ressources (demos, or multiuploads of same product).

You could also make a progressive MP fee system linked to MP incomes.

 

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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6 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

What do you think about this proposal

My first thought is merchants would split their items across alts with each alt having a store containing 100 items

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39 minutes ago, Cindy Evanier said:

My first thought is merchants would split their items across alts with each alt having a store containing 100 items

Well. They couldnt split "this" much since real serious shops also have a land and owner activity (support) so they would have to pay many lands, manage them and so on, all of this to avoid 1-15% max fees on sales. Maybe those spotted having "many brands" (like 5 shops) would need to reduce such activy .. if LL watches and warns them kindly..

This would need real cooperation between LL team that are monitoring RL transferts and those monitoring MP.. nothing impossible... Just monitoring big transferts vs rl  with funds gathering from  "many"  MP sellers accounts(ofc if they spend their money in sl who cares, since LL get all )  after all, there wouldnt be this many "big trasnferts" and the LL robots algorithms are already monitoring them to avoid fraud btw

->Also i dont see any second a 1000+ item shop starting to split in 10 little brands. That would mean suicide. Also, the biggest brands in SL already agreed (most of them in other topic) on paying more fees while mid sized and smalls mostly refuse.

Their only solution would be to seel more stuff inworld than in MP (example: remove those 1000+ demos in those big shops and people would come inworld to test demos)or simply lower their amount of products on MP to reach "acceptable thresholds, that would lower MP ressources, and also boost inworld activity. Lowering MP ressources would mean LL lose less money on MP monitoring, management, and lower their MP server costs, and this, is very imlportant

for sure LL MPuses lotof ressources in delivering trillions 0 L$ demos to people that wont even try all

Everyone would win from this

 

Even customers.. As a customer i am really tired to see same tshirts uploaded 10 times for each color just to increase the amount of product and abuse MP visibility.

Back in the past with the MP magicboxes we didnt have all this "product uploading spam". for sure the new MP system brought new problems, and product uploading spam is one

If a creator wants to spam with demos and 10 versions of same product they would PAY for it

This is the only fix i see.

 

I just hope that LL will read my two messages and take them in consideration. iam talking very seriously

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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@Majestic Kohime I think your idea has potential.  However, I think SL needs to address the initial cost of buying lindens, as well.  I used to put in buy orders to get better pricing, when I had time to wait.  However, over the last couple of years, even though there were plenty of sell orders with many more lindens than what I was buying, my buy orders would sit for months, whereas when I placed the order, it said it would be 4 days.  With the linden price fixed, there is no bargaining power.  It is tougher to get money back out, as well.  The Lindens seem to be caught in a trap of trying to tie down a market that was originally intended to be fluid.  Anyone buying lindens have now lost the feeling of an open market, which was an attraction.  Watching the prices for lindens go up, with changes that only benefit land owners, while also paying more in fees to sell in the marketplace makes sellers feel helpless and at the mercy of a corporation that cares nothing for them.  The additional fees for lindens should go to marketing, not bringing down the prices on tiers for those rich enough to buy land.  Charging the merchants more to bring down the price of tiers is unfair to those working behind the scenes to make this a fun place to be.  The Lindens do not need to change the original fee structure, they need to invest in real life advertising, to bring more people in, with more money to spend on buying products, building things, and owning land.  If Second Life is going down the tubes, as it appears to be, they need to up their game and act like the business they are.  This is more like the trickle down theory.  If we make it cheaper for the rich to buy land by charging merchants more, this will trickle back down to the merchants.  Uh huh.  If we charge more for people to buy stuff in Second Life, they will buy more land.  mmhmm.  You lower the tiers, but you charge more for the lindens to pay those lower tiers.  And, since you charged more for lindens for everyone, it is now harder for anyone that just wants to come to Second Life for fun to buy stuff.

Am I getting through?  This is what nearly destroyed our economy before and is threatening to do again.

Speaking to others, not you Majestic, go right ahead and give me those sad faces.  I really don't care.  This is my opinion.  You are welcome to yours.  But, it would really be nice if we could have a serious discussion here.  I think we all want Second Life to grow again.  Oh, by the way, I am not a huge or rich merchant by any means.  I have had a few good pieces to sell, but that isn't my norm.  My norm is to be lucky if I make enough to buy food for my animals.  I still have to pay for my store and everything else.  All I want is to be able to afford to keep playing in Second Life.  My way of playing is raising breedables.

Edited by Autumn Ehrenkranz
Needed to clafiry
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@Majestic Kohime I am one of those stores with 1000+ items. However i am neither big nor have i even any help from anywhere at all. It is just old me, one RL person, doing everything myself, and i don't own land but rent from a landlord for my store. 4/5 of my listings are old stuff, having been there from the very start. I don't delete them because they still sell, believe it or not, like maybe once a year. So if anything like you suggest would come to pass i would (have to) delete my old listings, to keep the count low. Maybe that's a good thing, i don't know... My point is - the number of listings is definitely not representative of how good the business is doing, so you might be taxing the wrong people in the end. Plus, what Cindy said.

What i think would have been a much better system and much fair to everybody, is to look at each item/listing individually, regardless of the brand/shop. It would count how many copies of each item has been sold in a certain amount of time (say, 10 copies per day, 100 per week, you name it). The higher the number, the higher the tax/fee on this particular item. Basically, the Best Selling items would be ones with the highest fees. Also, it would be fair if this per-item-tax would be dynamic and would also work backwards, so when an item is best selling the tax on it would go up, and if the same item doesn't sell in a while, the tax on it would go down. Would that work?

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30 minutes ago, Autumn Ehrenkranz said:

 it would really be nice if we could have a serious discussion here.

it's useless to discuss this subject: a. no management Lindens participate, b the topic is about the , already, fact of raising fees.

discussion between residents won't bring in any new points to LL, and thats what you want to accomplish. They don't come here enough, and/or don't take part of it before they even make plans about raising fees. Tje ones that make the plans are, as far i know, never present at the forums. And i'm sure they know what the communities would prefer, and what the creators prefer. But that's never been the same, so all what LL will do is wrong.

If you want to bring your thoughts to attention of the right ones, you have to file a Jira of go to the meetings with the Lindens.

Here you'll only get the whining about fees in situ.

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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26 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

it's useless to discuss this subject: a. no management Lindens participate, b the topic is about the , already, fact of raising fees.

discussion between residents won't bring in any new points to LL, and thats what you want to accomplish. They don't come here enough, and/or don't take part of it before they even make plans about raising fees. Tje ones that make the plans are, as far i know, never present at the forums. And i'm sure they know what the communities would prefer, and what the creators prefer. But that's never been the same, so all what LL will do is wrong.

If you want to bring your thoughts to attention of the right ones, you have to file a Jira of go to the meetings with the Lindens.

Here you'll only get the whining about fees in situ.

You seem so sure of you. Not participating doesnt mean not reading and not taking in consideration what we say. So far the only one who is whining there is you, and 1-2 other people max.

"Jiras filling" is wrong. Thousands people participated in JIRA survey concerning lastnames, mostly requested them and received negative answer from LL about the coming back of last names. It then took 8 years, until now for LL to realize that lastnames might be a future update. Oh, a payant one of course, surprise!!!

"Meeting with lindens" , this topic would be out of subject so skipped mostly.

I had more success in changing the future of SL in Imming inworld Lindens back in the old past, tho, i dont know the actual team and roles so this is useless to even try.

 

At the opposite, we got example that a forum topic can change SL: REDZONE, back in the 2010-2011, the forum topic concerning security systems, and redzone in particular changed the future of SL and made scammers security systems creators who were gathering illegaly Ips banned. Simple as that.

 

Also where is the "fact" of raising fees? we still have no agenda, nor estimation of the %, same for this hypothetic % up on cashout that would be also DEADLY.

If this doesnt change anything to WRITE maybe its time for LL to take a decision and announce something, or STOP the spreading of the rumors- especially this 30% rumor (so far only 3 people in this topic are SURE about fees rising and those are also PRO-fee rising, so if you know anything more than the public interview, its time to say it), because we all need CLEAR answers to make plans.

And since creating in SL takes time we need to know EXACTLY the near future. Especially since it concerns FEES.

Thats already two monthes that creators are waiting to know about those "fees".

 

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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9 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

You seem so sure of you. Not participating doesnt mean not reading and not taking in consideration what we say. So far the only one who is whining there is you, and 1-2 other people max.

"Jiras filling" is wrong. Thousands people participated in JIRA survey concerning lastnames, mostly requested them and received negative answer from LL about the coming back of last names. It then took 8 years, until now for LL to realize that lastnames might be a future update.

"Meeting with lindens" , this topic would be out of subject so skipped mostly.

I had more success in changing the future of SL in Imming inworld Lindens back in the old past, tho, i dont know the actual team and roles so this is useless to even try.

 

At the opposite, we got example that a forum topic can change SL: REDZONE, back in the 2010-2011, the forum topic concerning security systems, and redzone in particular changed the future of SL and made scammers security systems creators who were gathering illegaly Ips banned. Simple as that.

 

Also where is the "fact" of raising fees? we still have no agenda, nor estimation of the %, same for this hypothetic % up on cashout that would be also DEADLY.

If this doesnt change anything to WRITE maybe its time for LL to take a decision and announce something, or STOP the spreading of the rumors- especially this 30% rumor (so far only 3 people in this topic are SURE about fees rising and those are also PRO-fee rising, so if you know anything more than the public interview, its time to say it), because we all need CLEAR answers to make plans.

And since creating in SL takes time we need to know EXACTLY the near future. Especially since it concerns FEES.

Thats already two monthes that creators are waiting to know about those "fees".

 

There is no reason to believe that The Lab has decided on either WHEN or WHAT AMOUNT the new fees will be. It seems from all their comments in official sources that additional Marketplace and Cash Out fees are on the to do list. At the same time they have said OFTEN that they are taking things slow and seeing how one change affects the grid. The latest has been the price cut on private lands along with the increase in PER TRANSACTION linden buys. 

So likely it will be some while before you see any announcement on the fee changes. My sense in listening to all the interviews is that it will come closer to the end of the year. I can't point to the things said that makes me believe so, but I invite you to watch all the videos of late and read the interviews and make up your own mind.

I also suggest that you prepare your brand (and yourself) for the increase. Plan for it and if it doesn't happen it will be a bonus.  Also mentioned in the talks were the possibility of even more price cuts on mainland (logically that would be more price cuts for private lands eventually), more prims per sim and "on demand" sims (lower rates).  So plenty of things being considered in the offices. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, CoyoteMage said:

 

Look at the traffic at Luna Bliss, one of my all time favorites.  I don't know how she stays in business.  I guarantee it isn't because her stuff is too expensive or isn't well made.  I have bought lots of cottages, plants, and skyboxes from Luna over the years.  A traffic volume of 446 is ridiculous.The number of people in Second Life is stuck at around 40,000 per day.  Considering the number of people stuck in their homes on fixed incomes, there should be ten times that many people.

 

Thanks, Autumn :)

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39 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

.Here you'll only get the whining about fees in situ

Alwin, sometimes people want to discuss what troubles them -- this can help us come to terms with it.
Nobody needs you to mansplain our expressions away with pejorative labels such as "whining'. Why don't you take your grumpy little mansplaining noggin over to some other thread if our concerns feel like whining to you.

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2 hours ago, Majestic Kohime said:

Example of equilibrated marketplace fee system:

- First threshold would be at 100 items. Under 100 items there would still be the classic 5% fee

- 100-500: a first fee which isnt abusive: 1-2% in add

- 500-1000: a little more 1-2% in add

- 1000+: 15% overall fee

This is normal that the sellers that are using the most  marketplace ressources pay also higher fees.

Well I have a couple of hundred items in the marketplace that are selling, some of course more often than others. I also clean out both shop and Marketplace of older items. Some get thrown out; some get given as gifts. 

So you want to PENALIZE the people that are producing the most and selling those items.

I think that is a very bad plan.  The sellers that SELL the most ARE paying more than the ones that do not sell much --- that is already the case. 

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2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well I have a couple of hundred items in the marketplace that are selling, some of course more often than others. I also clean out both shop and Marketplace of older items. Some get thrown out; some get given as gifts. 

So you want to PENALIZE the people that are producing the most and selling those items.

I think that is a very bad plan.  The sellers that SELL the most ARE paying more than the ones that do not sell much --- that is already the case. 

Since when changing a color on a texture means "producing"? You guys often compare to other marketplaces, but other mps from other plateforms dont have such "selling attitudes" as selling 10 times the same product for the only reason they change one color on  clothes. They even invented recently the "fatpack that got the best color" to "force" customer to buy a whole fatpack just for one color.

Same with gatchas copies that are more than toxic for the MP search.

You want to play casual go for it, but at least dont compare casual noob seller behavior with profesionnal platforms selling real products to justify a fee increase. SL doesnt play in the same garden than all the other platforms which are PROS. 30%? only in your dreams.

Since when having 1000's demos on marketplace means "selling"? This is basicly using ressources for nothing.

back in the past with xstreet magicboxes the amount of items in mp shops were more limited.

Back in the past we had more successful one-man creator shops and not full crews and buisnessmen "creators" (or even thiefs, yeah some thiefs got giant mp stores also) endangering the complete sl economy.

You seem to forget that Sl MP changed a lot the past 4 years and that those new giant shops with 2k-10k overall products didnt even exist in past. they simply came recently out of nowhere.

 

hahaha do you really believe that "those shops" that i wont mention uploaded their 8.000 PRODUCTS in 4 years alone? Are you ****** believing it? There is even like 2-3 people on the account to "just"upalod the products probably.

and they arent uploading "products" but rather 10-20 times the same product for the only reason it has a different color or texture. iam calling this absuing marketpolace ressources on a large scale never seen ever. They are the FIRST responsible of the Mp waste of ressources. They should pay MORE.

 

those are companies . They arent "people" We have to compete vs smalls companies nowadays. more than ever. and they got teams

 

And fee rising will allow them to continue to milk SL more than ever. are you blind or what? It is easy they got now a monopoly and they gained it the past 4 years, this is very recent.

It is obvious, the first gift LL did concerned the estates who are companies, the second gift will be this fees increase on everyone to permit those NEW and small/mid companies to milk SL until the end making us believe we are buying those clothes from some kind of.. what??? solo creator? haha what a joke.

So you rather tell us very fast WHEN and HOW MUCH , this way it will save many solo creators that worked like slave for the past 10 years a lot of time.

This whole joke about fees has to end. Just tell infos officially guys and that will save many people a lot of time i guess

Edited by Majestic Kohime

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2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

it's useless to discuss this subject: a. no management Lindens participate, b the topic is about the , already, fact of raising fees.

Then why are you still here?  

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26 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

Since when changing a color on a texture means "producing"? You guys often compare to other marketplaces, but other mps from other plateforms dont have such "selling attitudes" as selling 10 times the same product for the only reason they change one color on  clothes. They even invented recently the "fatpack that got the best color" to "force" customer to buy a whole fatpack just for one color.

Not everyone who has 1000s of items are just showing different colors.  Yes, there are people who do that and they are irritating, but don't put everyone selling thousands of items in the same category.  I expect to have a couple of thousand items when I finally start listing those that require more manual effort. Not to mention the new ones that aren't quite perfect enough for auctions, but are great for people just starting their own breeding, or people who are looking for something they just can't find in the auctions.

 

2 hours ago, Elvina Ewing said:

4/5 of my listings are old stuff, having been there from the very start. I don't delete them because they still sell, believe it or not, like maybe once a year.

Me, too. I just had three items sell that I have had in my store for about a year.  It was enough to pay for food and rental for one of my shops.  A couple of weeks ago, I had four others bought.  A totally different line.  Every so often, one of my even older ones will sell, maybe once a month.  I still have several hundred older items to add to my marketplace, it just takes so much time.  And, because these things are old, they have grown more valuable, including the ones that are already in the marketplace.  And, of course, I have new items to add.  If a breedable market closes, I remove them; otherwise, I continue to make money off them.

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