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Will LL remove the 2.5% second fee on Merchants?


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On 6/28/2018 at 4:46 AM, Elvina Ewing said:

Klytyna likes to whine about other residents whining about LL. Each to their own.

Some of us spend our time creating and that's our big thing, and we make some money out of it, while others spend their time scanning the forums for opportunities to be negative.

And I'm not mentioning names so this isn't aimed at anyone, so if you see yourself in this post then.....ask yourself why, why do I think this describes me?

Edited by Rya Nitely
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1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

Some of us spend our time creating and that's our big thing, and we make some money out of it, while others spend their time scanning the forums for opportunities to be negative.

And I'm not mentioning names so this isn't aimed at anyone, so if you see yourself in this post then.....ask yourself why, why do I think this describes me?

It is an annoying phenomenon isn't it....people who 'eat their own'...

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

It is an annoying phenomenon isn't it....people who 'eat their own'...

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think the loss of power (through decreased superiority, whether true or only imagined) is more difficult to deal with than never having power at all.

read your own words to somebody else in another thread, apply it to the "creators" attitudes who posted here and think again.

Think you'll find some feelings of superiority in your own words and posts. How dare the LL's  and paypals in this world put fees on me...  and how dare some go against my high positioned opinion ...

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

It is an annoying phenomenon isn't it....

yes it is.

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29 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:
2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

It is an annoying phenomenon isn't it....people who 'eat their own'...

 

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think the loss of power (through decreased superiority, whether true or only imagined) is more difficult to deal with than never having power at all.

read your own words to somebody else in another thread, apply it to the "creators" attitudes who posted here and think again.

Think you'll find some feelings of superiority in your own words and posts. How dare the LL's  and paypals in this world put fees on me...  and how dare some go against my high positioned opinion ...

Alwin, there is a difference between someone speaking up for what they perceive as an unfairness and trying to rectify it by bringing it to light on the forum VS the type of 'entitlement' you are describing where a merchant would have no empathy whatsoever for the other side (the other side being LL in this case).

I have no way to know if Naiman considered LL's position. You may be right, it seems she did not as she only stated her own position and so perhaps she feels only her position should be considered. I don't know. It could be she didn't speak to the other side as she knows nothing about it, and would be open to learning.
For me, I have tried to understand if LL's positioin is true and fair, but I don't think it is. I do not think only MY position should be considered in any way -- I don't feel a sense of entitlement as you define it.

However, I do tend to give more sympathy to the person(s) with less power, and in this case it is the merchants with less power and a corporation like LL has all the power and make the rules we must abide by without us having much say in it at all.
I would expect fellow merchants/residents like you and Klytyna to support us, and to join us in speaking truth to power.
I'm not sure either one of you is much of a merchant though, and while this may just be my projection I wonder as Rya does whether you are jealous of successful merchants like Naimen and myself and so feel fine about attempting to take us down a notch. If not that, then I suspect you just hate to see people come to the forum and complain & criticize, as that appears to be the perogative of you and Klytyna.

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8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I would expect fellow merchants/residents like you and Klytyna to support us, and to join us in speaking truth to power.

I spent most of my working life, RL, as a self employed sub-contractor, that's how corporate IT ops often was, back when.

I know that businesses have liabilities...

You pay for premises, you pay for business liability insurance, you pay employees, you pay utility and phone bills, you pay taxes, if your turnover goes over a certain level, you have to register for VAT and act as an unpaid tax collector too, and you pay an accountant every year to rubber stamp your books for the tax man.

You pay to do business in foreign currencies, you pay banking charges, theres no end ofthings a business has to pay for.

But come to the SL forums, and read the "Entitlement Posts"...

One asshat who actually posted a thread asking if he could file an abuse report against LL because when he cashed out 950 odd dollars wrth of linden he only got 940 odd dollars in his paypal account! Theft! Abuse! Outrage!

Another Asshat who complained that LL were not doing enough to force people to visit theirt parcel and leave generous tips in thanks for the existence of a system avi stripper bot that took it's 11 year old system clothing off if you payed it a linden, and why didn't LL do something to support the "small business person"

Another VERY well known asshat who demanded that LL ban "wear to unpack" shopping containers, because people being able to unpack their shopping without renting land damaged the asshats potential rentals income.

Gacha brokers, who create NOTHING, who demanded that LL provide them with free business insurance against loss of product due to fraudsters, but who screamed blue murder when it was suggested they could have such insurance if they payed a modest insurance premium for it, and who felt agrieved that LL are unwilling to spend $40-$60 tracking down and returning a missing $0.20 gacha box.

....

So many of SL's "business people" have no concept of running a REAL business, and expect all the perks with NONE of the operating costs.

Doing business costs money, why would I emphasise with "merchants" who expect to do business for FREE, and expect customers to cover their costs in addition to the purchase price of the goods through some special tax that bypasses the "Merchant Elite".

I have NO empathy for somebody who whines that they only pulled $1900 out of SL this month instead of $2000 because "unfair transaction fees and taxes". for example.

No more than I would for somebody complaining that their plan to sell cuckoo clocks made of Whale cheese was hampered by "ungrateful customers refusing to pay a decent price for clocks that smell like old socks".

...

By all means run a business in SL, if that's what floats your boat, but don't complain that I'm not paying a special tax so you don't have to pay anything in business costs.

LL have to make money somewhere, they are currently moving away from land revenue to other forms, basically taxes on business. Deal with it, you can't have zero taxes and cheap land at the same time, not if LL go bust and can't pay the electric bill for the server farm.

9 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm not sure either one of you is much of a merchant though, and while this may just be my projection I wonder as Rya does whether you are jealous of successful merchants like Naimen and myself and so feel fine about attempting to take us down a notch.

I didn't come to SL to spend all my time running a business, I had enough of that in RL over a quarter of a century before I retired on health grounds.

And Faux-Tycoon wannabes who don't understand business enough to realise that operating costs are NORMAL, need taking down a notch, frankly.

Call it a public Education Program, and claiming that anyone who DARES call you out on your unrealistic entitlement claims must be "jealous" makes you look like naughty children caught with your hands in SOMEBODY ELSE's cookie jar...

"Dear customer... I refuse to tolerate the MP sales tax, so you have to pay that, and I won't pay lindex charges, so you have to pay those too, and cashout fees are theft, so you have to cover those for me, and tier is dreadful, and I live in Europe so I have to pay VAT too, therefore after you pay L$100 for my product I require you to put L$20 in the store Tip Jar and of course the Customer is ALWAYS wrong, never forget that fact...

Wait! Where are you going! Don't leave! You didn't buy anything yet!

I need you damn it..."

Some of you "Entitlement Syndrome Merchants" like to act as if you are doing us a big favour selling your stuff in SL, but you have competitors...

And you need us more than we need you. You get the "empathy" you deserve.



 

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So far, we are still 2 monthes after LL's announce and yet we dont know much more.

Nevertheless LL raised the fee on L$ buying  0.99$ to 1.49$, and this has been their decision to compensate the reduction on land fees.

Quote

In addition to dropping prices on land, on July 2, we will also increase the cost to buy Linden Dollars to $1.49 per transaction (compared to the current rate of 99 cents per transaction).   This increase will help us offset the revenues lost on land, and to keep Second Life a vibrant world that continues to push the limits of possibility - for another 15 years to come.

source:

 

So here is the point: LL initial announce talked about a "potential" fee raise on Mp transactions, or fee raise on cash out, or fee raise on L$ buying. as a "possibility" to compensate the reduction  price on lands.

So, unless we are all missing some other info, LL decision has been made and it concerned the fee on l$ buying.

 

Seriously do you think they would RAISE BOTH THE 3 FEES??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

 

So here is my question, why chic aeon is still talking about a potential fee raise on MP while this discussion is already over and LL already took their decision and raised another fee? Or are they really wanting to raise ALL the fees they did mention (L$ buying, then cashout and MP sales? wtf?)

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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7 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

So here is my question, why chic aeon is still talking about a potential fee raise on MP while this discussion is already over and LL already took their decision and raised another fee?

because it's not over, it's not meant as NOW, but a time span

8 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

a "potential" fee raise on Mp transactions, or fee raise on cash out, or fee raise on L$ buying.

most likely change the "or" in "and"

8 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

seriously do you think they would RAISE BOTH THE 3 FEES??? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

yep, isn't that great? nobody is discriminated :)

11 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

L$ buying, then cashout and MP sales? wtf?

not wtf... it's totally normal a game or internet based producer/host for platforms where money is involved takes a little fee. So does LL.

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@ klytyna: you opinion about internet "buisnesses" is biased since you do own a RL buisness and not an internet one.

As the OP stated already we do already have a big bunch of fees, +, if the buisness is successful our gov fees on incomes.

So my question is: what are you trying to prove us? that adding fees is legitimate?

 

It would be legitimate if the global SL "population traffic" was still high. Tho it is decreasing for many years.

The creators did their job: they provided a very large amount of original assets to SL.

The main problem in my opinion is that LL failed to continue the marketing on large populations through very known websites, and video games websites.

This resulted in a lower and lower newcomers flux

 

10 years ago everyone knew Second Life, as they knew facebook, myspace, yahoo groups, and so on. At some point Second life stopped beeing mediatised, and stopped to be mediatised positivly

 

Us creators did our job, the content of SL is rich.

We do expect that LL do their part and spend more dollars in marketing to bring large amounts of newcomers that will actually INVEST and spend money in SL. Thanks you by advance.

 

 

 @Alwin Alcott was it an ironic post? i mean, unless you dont have any interest in SL you cant be glad about alarge fee raising because it is the best proof about LL failing to bring new populations and investors within SL

 

Also, all you "whiteknights" please dont talk about other buisnesses having "more fees". Some are still on 5% like the unreal engine, so plz if we could stop this kindergarden game it would be fine. As someone said, the problem isnt the fees, rather what we get in the end

 

You can understand easily the paying more fees wouldnt be a problem if LL had plans to get higher overall population.

 

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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6 hours ago, Klytyna said:

And Faux-Tycoon wannabes who don't understand business enough to realise that operating costs are NORMAL, need taking down a notch, frankly.

 

Call it a public Education Program, and claiming that anyone who DARES call you out on your unrealistic entitlement claims must be "jealous" makes you look like naughty children caught with your hands in SOMEBODY ELSE's cookie jar...

Does it mean you have to be so damned nasty all the time??? I know you like to think of yourself as Cynic, but what you are is just downright RUDE. You will teach nobody nothing with a vile condescending super arrogance of yours, you will only hurt their feelings or make them angry, which is i am guessing IS your true goal here. If none of the Lindens tick you on your fingers any time soon i personally will have to find out how it works here to block somebody's posts from showing.

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10 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

@Alwin Alcott was it an ironic post? i mean, unless you dont have any interest in SL you cant be glad about alarge fee raising because it is the best proof about LL failing to bring new populations and investors within SL

.. come off your throne, like those others in this thread.

Some creators were able to rake in their earnings for nearly free over 14 years, and now they are butthurt they have to pay too like all others. And don't like it.

The fees on buying L$ won't hurt them at all... you get tons of it by your customers, it's only the selling and transfer.

It's also not only creators it's EVERYBODY, it's a flat rate, all pay the same, no matter it's 10 dollars or 1000.

And please stop the idiocy to put members who don't seem to have a store or financial business in SL as non relevant or not serious, it only proves you think you'r far up above the crowd.

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The thing that some people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that, even in rl, when a fee is raised by a high percentage again and again over a short period of time (and even over a long period), the level of tolerance will decrease, even for the fee lovers. And this has been the case here. It's not about fees, it's about the threat to profit. It's a fine line, and I will give LL credit for being aware of the fine line. They would understand that the platform needs creators who are prepared to put in many many hours of work for little return because of the profit incentive - take that away and where would we be?

And we should let LL know that, for some creators (who knows how many) our level of tolerance is being reached. I think LL would find that important information. Because they are treading a fine line.

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3 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

.. come off your throne, like those others in this thread.

Some creators were able to rake in their earnings for nearly free over 14 years, and now they are butthurt they have to pay too like all others. And don't like it.

The fees on buying L$ won't hurt them at all... you get tons of it by your customers, it's only the selling and transfer.

It's also not only creators it's EVERYBODY, it's a flat rate, all pay the same, no matter it's 10 dollars or 1000.

And please stop the idiocy to put members who don't seem to have a store or financial business in SL as non relevant or not serious, it only proves you think you'r far up above the crowd.

Where did you see i was trying to be arrogant or anything in this sentence? I was just surprised that you would promote a 3 fees system as solution. If you think my sentence goal was to be rude, it wasnt the goal. Iam not english native.

As i stated, rising fees without real marketing acts that would bring fresh newcomers in mass, wont rise  the overall population.

this temporarly solution might maintain SL, but wont fix the problem on long term

 

You may not know it but we are in 2018 (ok this is ironic no "throne" here) and the video game industry changed a lot.

Most of people spend their time on twitch, discord, or simply are on steam.

If you analyse the steam charts, there is for example: 900k Online people in PUBG, 500k in DOTA 2, 250k in CSGO, just now as iam writing this message.

This proves that some games can gather very large populations, LL should FIGHT to go back to the constant 70k online already... actually we barely reach 50k in 2018

notice that PUBG is laggy a bit broken and full of cheaters but it doesnt stop the "success".This large online population in this game can be explained by the CHinese that are progressivly allowed to play more and more video games by their gov (before their internet was more blocked)

I would gladly pay all those new fees if the Lab had at leat some clues, objectives, to adapt Sl to all those new game standards and populations: twitch discord, etc.. Or at least do marketing campaign via real journalism websites

 

Unless SL can adapt and find solutions iam afraid that the overall population and the economy stagnate.

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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53 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

10 years ago everyone knew Second Life, as they knew facebook, myspace, yahoo groups, and so on. At some point Second life stopped beeing mediatised, and stopped to be mediatised positivly

 

Us creators did our job, the content of SL is rich.

We do expect that LL do their part and spend more dollars in marketing to bring large amounts of newcomers that will actually INVEST and spend money in SL. Thanks you by advance.

The top underlined statement here is false. "Everyone" didn't know Second Life ten years ago; it has always been a niche product and will likely remain that way. I would guess less than 5% of "Everyone" knows about Second Life and certainly less than that who UNDERSTAND what it is about and how it works. 

 

Creators have indeed made SL content rich, but here again your statement uses that "we" to express YOUR belief -- lumping us all together. I do not in any way expect  LL to spend more dollars marketing. I do expect them to keep the grid running as smoothly as possible. I have AGREED (by accepting the Terms of Service) that this is their business and their right to run it as they see fit.   

Since we have known for that last decade that it is RETENTION and not the introduction to Second Life that is the issue, I would appreciate LL's continued effort to work on ways to improve that retention rate; it is certainly in their own self-interest to try new ideas to keep people logging in. And I, personally, am just fine with folks that come and enjoy Second Life and never spend any real life dollars. They can still be productive and important members of our society.

So while it is fine to have your own opinion, please do not suggest it is the opinion of ALL content creators. It is not. 

Edited by Chic Aeon
spelling - middle of the night writing so not my thing :D
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And this was in Australia. At work when I mentioned Second Life everyone knew it. It was even blocked from our internet usage at work, along with other social media sites. Twitter came up as well, and I remember thinking what is Twitter?

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24 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

The top underlined statement here is false. "Everyone" didn't know Second Life ten years ago; it has always been a niche product and will likely remain that way. I would guess less than 5% of "Everyone" knows about Second Life and certainly less than that who UNDERSTAND what it is about and how it works. 

 

Creator have indeed made SL content rich, but here again your stat,emt uses that "we" to express YOUR belief -- lumping us all together. I do not in any way expect  LL to spend more dollars marketing. I do expect them to keep the grid running as smoothly as possible. I have AGREED (by accepting the Terms of Service) that this is their business and their right to run it as they see fit.   

Since we have know for that last decade that it is RETENTION and not the introduction to Second Life that is the issue, I would appreciate LL's continued effort to work on ways to improve that retention rate; it is certainly in their own self-interest to try knew ideas to keep people logging in. And I, personally, am just fine with folks that come and enjoy Second Life and never spend any real life dollars. They can still be productive and important members of our society.

So while it is fine to have your own opinion, please do not suggest it is the opinion of ALL content creators. It is not. 

 

No worry iam assuming completly that iam part of those who post "nasty??" as you said in the last topic you launched.

 

So yeah we are posting nasty things cause have a different opinion no problem with that.

Does this mean that we arent allowed to talk there to explore new ways to give a new breath to SL?

At some point i understand clearly that there is a plan and that whatever we post the fees will be added. No problem with this. Tho some people around and also within LL cant realize the emergency about SL overall activity

Do you think that all this matter is just about some fees?

Did you already own a big international place in SL ? (for example: club). I did. Even 4 years ago i would fill my club with 85 people, 60 listeners. having 40k traffic peeks easily. i dont own anymore a club in Sl tho, i see around,

I explore clubs and events, nowadays it hardly happens cause evertything is laggy, you rarely find 24/24 7/7 clubs, and so on.

Do you know how difficult it was already to bring back true RL artists in SL in 2014 to make them do some live? It was more difficult that in 2010. Clearly.

There WAS a dynamic, and this dynamic slowered

This whole discussion isnt just about "some creators whining about fees".

It is about SL.

 

 

Add those fees if you want, in the end, we clearly understood that whatever we write it wont change anything, but thats not a reason for us to not write what we think. And we think that adding fees wont be a solution on long term. far from it

 

 

 

 

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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6 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

And please stop the idiocy to put members who don't seem to have a store or financial business in SL as non relevant or not serious, it only proves you think you'r far up above the crowd.

it's idiocy that people who are no SL merchants themselves (are trying to) preach on MERCHANTS forum to the actual SL merchants. No, your input here is indeed much less relevant than you obviously would have liked because you cannot know what it's like to be in our shoes because you are not one of us. Your livelihood doesn't depend on it, like ours does. And it has absolutely nothing to do with being far up above or under, it's about having different interests. And it is even more ridiculous that you and Klytyna think to gain anything here with your condescending and insulting tone. It is not us who need to get off our throne, but you, who seem to believe you will teach us anything like this. Oh and thanks for the hover tip, i will put it to good use.

7 minutes ago, Majestic Kohime said:

I would gladly pay all those new fees if the Lab had at least some clues, objectives, to adapt Sl to all those new game standards and populations: twitch discord, etc..

Unless SL cant adapt and find solutions i am afraid that the overall population and the economy stagnate.

Personally i believe that LL are scrambling to stay afloat. I guess Sansar is the biggest reason/problem, but there are probably more. All these fee increases and plans to try and milk more revenue out of SL are not a good sign. Not all is well at all in the realm of SL...

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18 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

I guess Sansar is the biggest reason/problem

I wonder if these fee defenders have ever thought that this might have something to do with it. Where did/does the money to support Sansar come from? If the fee increases are being channeled that way, how many people would be happy about it? We don't know, but we should be happy to pay more and more?

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8 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

Nem tudo está bem no reino do SL ...

Ok girls ... I'm Brazilian (calm, do not hate me so fast), I do not speak English, I know very little and I depend on translator. But I confess that SL helped me improve what little I know.
To put fire on this placement above, I imagine if that mass of Brazilians came back they would fire the SL again ... :-)
However today a few are great professionals and owners of big brands ... but they are lacking those intermediate staff, the crazy customers ... Today we are in the two ends, the creators, and the fishermen (hunters of money), but a Brazilian today is not consumer as before. Even our costs due to the appreciation of the dollar is terrible, different from the European VAT where the quality of life is very different ... Today our costs here in Brazil are more than double of 2008/2010 ... The marketplace pulled out one of the world's stores as well, helping to empty it.
Ok, sorry for the feeling of nostalgia ... I enjoyed the times when everyone appeared in the searches ... where in any corner there was a camp ... islands and crowded islands ... events and more events ... good times !
I also think we can, and should, discuss using softer words.
Long and prosperous life for all who have been resisting time.
Of course, sorry for my English.

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44 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

No, your input here is indeed much less relevant than you obviously would have liked because you cannot know what it's like to be in our shoes because you are not one of us. Your livelihood doesn't depend on it, like ours does.

The ones that aren't in your clique are outsiders?.... wow... never seen something more narrow minded. Just for your info.. only this week alone i transfered over 180.000 L$ to UDS here because of my trade and merchandise, STOP assuming people who are thinking you'r arrogant and blown up are nobody.

YOU excist by permission of your customers..never forget that.

Again, come off your throne and start walking in real.

1 hour ago, Rya Nitely said:

nd we should let LL know that, for some creators (who knows how many) our level of tolerance is being reached. I think LL would find that important information. Because they are treading a fine line.

oh god we get this card again... hey, if you leave ten others will take your place.

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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44 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

only this week alone i transfered over 180.000 L$ to UDS here because of my trade and merchandise, STOP assuming people who are thinking you'r arrogant and blown up are nobody.

what did you mean? what kind of "buisness" are you into?

If you are a shop owner (creator, or buisnessman/hiring creators) that would be nice to know which one, isnt it?

with such high incomes and such a blank profile why do you have the feeling that we have arrogant attitudes?

isnt that yourself hiding some infos to have the freedom of beeing arrogant toward us?

 

with more infos about yourself  we should be able to understand your point of view.

 

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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