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5 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Another way to replace the lost income (and probably a more reliable one than some) is to encourage people to take out premium membership,

Totally WRONG...

A Non Entitlement Club member wants a 1024 to call home, they go to the private estates, pay a $1.50 a week for L$ to pay the rent on the parcel, and get all the land rights a Madlands welling Entitlement Club member would get...

That $6 a month of rent goes to MegaPrim Estates, who pass on most of it to LL in "maintenance fee", keeping a percentage for their own profit.

But Entitlement Club? the user pays LESS than $1 a month (after stipend cashback) for their 1024 (usual tier price $3 a month), that's a loss right there, instead of getting $4 a month from Megaprim Estates for the users home they get less than $1...

And that's before you count in the cost of providing Entitlement Club perks like Livechat Support etc.

Trying to force people to become Entitlement Club members isn't a "retention strategy" nor is it a "way to replace land revenues", it is in fact a way to "lose even more money".

The problem is that to LL's FAILED pseudo-ecconomists, the people who RENT parcels are invisible, they only see Megaprim.Landlord (rez date 2006) and they notice that each year he rents slightly fewer estate sims from the Lab than the year before.

It NEVER occurs to them that this is because THEY are constantly finding new ways to drive off his "invisible to the Lab" customers.


 

7 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

LL's terrible communication skills have already hurt them, and sl, in a myriad of different ways

We've heard via the usual backdoor "special interview given to an SL-Fossil Blogger on the Special List" route, that "LL do not intend to 'nickle and dime' their customers.

Many foolishly assumed this meant that the Lab had no planes to sell things people currently or previously got for free. They assumed wrong, what it actually seems to mean is "we wont charge nickles and dimes, just dollars and tens of dollars".

We heard about this "Lastnames are coming back", but details were lacking, and people assumed that this was "closing the social divide" and declared this was "Fair", that new users could have the same double-style names as the Lastnamers, and an assumption was made that existing residents could change their names so they could join the Lastnamer party too... "Fair"

Eventually, again via those backdoor communication channels, we heard that they were coming back with a fee. People assumed "new users get a free lastname, but existing residents have to PAY to catch up", and with typical Lastnamer hyp[ocrisy, this too was declared to be "Fair". Make those "resident named griefer alts pay to have the same kind of names as OLD Lastnamers and NEW lastnamers, very FAIR".

Then the backdoor channels spoke again...

No "NEW Lastnamers", just more residents, but now members of the underclass, can have the option to join the "Real People (tm)" by paying a DOUBLE HIT fee, which in accordance with a previous backdoor comms channel announcement certainly WON'T be "nickles and dimes"

And the same people who said all the previous versions were "Fair" now claim that this is "Fair" too, that witrh the reintroduction of a feature that by and large, was mostly wanted BY LASTNAMERS, should only be available to non-Lastnamers if they PAY... "Fair"

We've already had one self-important, self entitled "Merchant" state in this thread that they fully support the idea of new users being "scalped" with double hit fees by the Lab, in order to keep said merchants process credit fees down.

WHY THE HELL should a bunch of new users be ripped off and driven out just to subsidise some fatheaded and greedy vendor, that they haven't even heard of let alone done any actual business with.

If vendors want to guarantee that their RL incomes from SL don't fall despite increased cashout charges, they should make better content and find ways to sell more of it, by, for example lowering their prices.

Expecting your Lifestyle to be subsidised by an army of NON-Customers, scalped by the Lab, so the Lab can give you FREE money, is just another classic way to drive off new users...

"Don't come to SL, it's a ripoff designed to subsidise a coterie of arrogant old farts who hate you for even existing"

That's a hell of a sales pitch, don't you think?

 

Edited by Klytyna
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Out of curiosity I went to look how is the username creation process now (June 3, 2018). Linden Lab forgot very important information from that window. This is missing: Please do create a meaningf

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1 hour ago, chibiusa Ling said:

I feel like you guys at linden labs go one step forward two steps back

You've been here since 2007, and you've only just noticed that? Hah, you need to leave your house more often...

"One Step Forward - Two Steps Back" has been official LL policy for as long as I can remember, more than 6 years., And judging from conversations with older friends, including one who dates back to 2003, that's always been the official policy.
 

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16 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

"One Step Forward - Two Steps Back" has been official LL policy for as long as I can remember, more than 6 years., And judging from conversations with older friends, including one who dates back to 2003, that's always been the official policy.

So what are you doing to help fix the problem? You don't show up at meetings such as Server User Group. There was a long discussion on name handling there today. Where were you? There are regular opportunities to talk to LL people, and sometimes  it has an effect.

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1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:
  • Blizzard (BattleNet) account - I changed once.
  • League of Legends - I've changed 3-4 times across 2 accounts (different servers).
  • Warframe - Changed once.
  • Almost every MMORPG (which I think SL could be put under):
    • Final Fantasy XIV - Changed my race once (and plan to do it again, but you can pay for name change too).
      • Also has a mandatory monthly subscription fee to play.
    • World of Warcraft
    • Elder Scrolls Online
    • Guild Wars 2
    • ArcheAge
    • TERA
    • Vindictus
    • Maplestory
    • Everquest
    • ...

None of those systems (some of which I also participate in btw) use the kind of system LL is proposing....NONE.

Which is what I was asking ;) 

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49 minutes ago, ellestones said:

@Wulfie - can add Club Penguin to the list. To get your own name you had to get a payfor account. Yesterdays children are todays adults who don't see this as a big deal. Paying for a inworld name is pretty common. Inworld names are like a asset property to many online people. In the same way as other inworld/game assets that enhance our sense of well-being

 

Paying for a character name, while not my cup of tea, isn't the only part people have a problem. It's paying TWICE for such, that people seem most pissed about, which makes perfect sense.

Paying for a character name, on top of also paying for the game/subscriptions is not even remotely common. 

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29 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

"Fair"

is interesting when we get into whats fair

is it fair that later adopters only get 300L stipend now and early adopters still get 500L

is it fair that early adopter new accounts still get 50L stipend and later adopter get 0L

is it fair that very early adopters were able to buy lifetime accounts and later perople were not

is it fair that sim owners on low-class sim servers who chose to stay on them and to not upgrade to the newer powerful servers were grandfathered at the old tiers rate when the whole grid was finally upgraded

is it fair that the First Land programme was discontinued and subsequent new premium members had to go to the open market for their first land

is it fair to these subsequent new members when LL started providing Linden Homes gratis after these people had incurred the extra cost to secure a home

there's a temptation to look at all these things and say none of them are fair to us today.  Its an abyss of discontent when we do this.  When the way it works and has always worked in any real world is: This is what is offered today and this is the price today. If the price is right then buy it. If not then buy something else

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9 minutes ago, animats said:

So what are you doing to help fix the problem? You don't show up at meetings such as Server User Group. There was a long discussion on name handling there today. Where were you? There are regular opportunities to talk to LL people, and sometimes  it has an effect.

She's far too busy posting in the forum, complaining about a class of user that is - frankly - a minority subset of the older user base while somehow not being chastised by forum moderation for it. 

Funny on that last bit. 

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3 minutes ago, animats said:

So what are you doing to help fix the problem? You don't show up at meetings such as Server User Group. There was a long discussion on name handling there today. Where were you? There are regular opportunities to talk to LL people, and sometimes  it has an effect.

1. I don't have access to the Beta grid, nor feel inclined to apply.

2. I'm currently in hospital awaiting more surgery, with an ancient laptop that can't run a viewer

3. This is the main reason.

I LOATH the very concept of those damn meetings, where some self appointed snobby little clique, "lick-a-linden" in an attempt to get their own pet peeves made official projects.

That's how we ended up with that Baked-on-Fail crap, it's probably how we ended up with the 32 m draw distance stealth hike for "large architectural prims", that some clueless clique member thought was a good idea to "improve sl" back in 2014 (the one you commented on in a thread where you incorrectly assumed prim houses rendering as just floor slabs in the distance was a LOD issue).

It's why the official explanation for why 70% of the grid had two server rolls in one day, due to bad server code and an unexpected crash bug, was made to less than 10 users at some damned meeting, rather than posted on the official blog or the official forum.

It's why we have recently heard the latest on Lastnames not from an official LL post on forums or LL Blog, but from a private blog of a "special friend" of the Lindens...

In some amazing parallel universe where my 'alt' has enough cash to buy 80% of the stock, and stage a hostile takeover and appoint herself as "The Great Tyrant, LL CEO and Empress of SL", those meetings would be canceled and the people responsible for them would be looking for new jobs... 

And "consultation" would take place HERE on the official forums, where far more people could participate.
 

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15 minutes ago, animats said:

So what are you doing to help fix the problem? You don't show up at meetings such as Server User Group. There was a long discussion on name handling there today. Where were you? There are regular opportunities to talk to LL people, and sometimes  it has an effect.

And sometimes, when you pay attention, you will realize that folks regularly DO use the opportunities they can(please don't be arrogant about the whys and hows of people being unable to go to "meetings" that LL holds...please..it's just...blah, regardless of who you are talking to, and it's a cheap shot, and I am sick and tired of people using that as a reason for why people shouldn't be heard. Do you know the schedule of everyone?) and LL STILL DOES NOT LISTEN. I didn't want to shout that, but, it's pretty damn important, so I'm gonna.

LL has had years to listen...years. They have all the information they need at their fingertips about what the community really wants. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out they really don't care, lol. 

You're right, sometimes it does have an effect, but this isn't one of those cases. The community has had NO effect, thus far, on how LL is handling this issue. Hell we have lindens right here in this thread confirming that LL is, for certain, going about this in the exact opposite manner of what the community wants. So, yeah, preach on about "why don't you talk to LL about it, why don't you communicate with them about it", while everyone else sits back and says...."we have been, for ages..they still don't care". 

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Just now, Tari Landar said:

Paying for a character name, on top of also paying for the game/subscriptions is not even remotely common. 

i agree that people shouldn't pay twice for the same thing

say a person buys a Premium account. For this they get 300L stipend. 1024m tiers, a Experience Key and access to Premium land/spaces/content

if the ability to change is not included in this package then they are not paying twice

i do agree though that it doesn't make any sense to me not include in the signup package a name change credit

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3 minutes ago, ellestones said:

i agree that people shouldn't pay twice for the same thing

say a person buys a Premium account. For this they get 300L stipend. 1024m tiers, a Experience Key and access to Premium land/spaces/content

if the ability to change is not included in this package then they are not paying twice

i do agree though that it doesn't make any sense to me not include in the signup package a name change credit

But, they are paying twice, because you ignored the fact that premium is a must BEFORE one can change the name. So they must first buy premium...one payment, then must buy the name change..that's two payments necessary to get a name change(whether it is changing the name in general, or just getting a last name). Both are necessary parts in LL's proposed system...and it's asinine, NO other system uses it, nor would they...because....it's asinine, lol.

Edited by Tari Landar
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7 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

But, they are paying twicel, because you ignored the fact that premium is a must BEFORE one can change the name. So they must first buy premium...one payment, then must buy the name change..that's two payments necessary to get a name change(whether it is changing the name in general, or just getting a ast name).

you're treating the things we do currently get in the Premium account offer as if they are inconsequential, when they aren't to those who buy them

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7 minutes ago, ellestones said:

you're treating the things we do currently get in the Premium account offer as if they are inconsequential, when they aren't to those who buy them

No I'm not, not even remotely lol. They are benefits for those that choose them, benefits they enjoy, else they wouldn't pay for them, now would they? They may be inconsequential *for me*, but that's only *for me*, I don't speak for others on whether or not those things are good perks or not, I never have. 

That doesn't change a lick of what I said. We are talking about THIS perk, the ability to have a last name...none of the other perks, regardless of how much others may or may not like them. I am discussing THIS one, no others.

In order to get THIS perk, one must pay twice...which is what I have said, repeatedly, lol. 

New signups will still get the resident name even IF they get a premium account right out the gate upon signing up, they will *still have to pay, on top of paying for premium, to get a last name. Anyone who is already a resident, will also have to pay for premium, and then pay again, to get the name change. In either scenario, that's paying twice for ONE of the perks.

Do you have to pay a fee on top of the premium fee to get any of the other perks? Nope.

Why this one? The ONE thing the community has agreed about for a very long time(and come on, we hardly ever agree as much as we do on this subject, lol, as a collective), is the ONE thing LL is trying to screw up royally by not listening..the one instance where listening could actually benefit them greatly(read:financially, as that's likely what matters most to them here)..and they stick their fingers in their ears and say "neener, neener, neener I can't hear you, I'll do what *I* want". Pfffft..I suspect as more hear about it, the dissent is going to grow, massively...in fact, I predict it ;) 

 

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@Tari - well yes about how people are going to feel about all this and express their views. As people did when last names were abandoned

as I already said I think it would be a mistake to not include a name change credit  in the Premium package. But if LL do then is every possibility that the Premium package could be increased in price

I am also not convinced that restricting payfor name changes to premium-only is a good thing. I am not understanding the thinking behind this. There might be but I can't see it

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IMVU charges for names. Free accounts are Guest_MyName - This alone was enough to prevent me from signing up.

I do not like any plan that creates an obvious underclass of everyone who isn't a premium / VIP member. AllTheNamesAreGone33 is going to have a real bad time in SL and probably won't want to pony up for a premium account just so they can join the privileged classes.

Why are they going to have a bad time ?? Because WE will treat them like scum.

 

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Hey folks rethink it, it's a feature, future Lastnamers will be easily identifyable as fools that can easily parted from their money for reasons of pride only... merchants then can adopt their marketing strategy when speaking to one based on assumption they can make by seeing their name alone.

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Nah .. there has always been an bias against new or free accounts .. sometimes unconscious, sometimes not so much. This as offered paints an even bigger target and reinforces the class stratification of SL's user base.

 

Personally, I'd like to see age and payment info removed from profiles. We need to treat new users better, we need to be welcoming not suspicious, paranoid and trigger happy. SL needs to get back to growing .. and our long established behaviors aren't helping.

 

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9 hours ago, animats said:

So what are you doing to help fix the problem? You don't show up at meetings such as Server User Group. There was a long discussion on name handling there today. Where were you? There are regular opportunities to talk to LL people, and sometimes  it has an effect.

With some people, staying away is the greatest contribution they can make...

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12 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Totally WRONG...

A Non Entitlement Club member wants a 1024 to call home, they go to the private estates, pay a $1.50 a week for L$ to pay the rent on the parcel, and get all the land rights a Madlands welling Entitlement Club member would get...

Yes, and if the "Non Entitlement Club member" wants to change his or her name, they take out premium membership.     People with premium membership don't necessarily use the free tier for their own accommodation -- I've had premium membership for as long as I can remember, not in order to live on the mainland (I've lived on private estates almost since i've started), but because the tier allowance is useful for other purposes, too, and because I valued the other benefits of premium membership.    Now that the benefits include the ability to upload mesh and own experiences, premium membership is of even greater value to me, of course, and I can't be the only person who has premium membership but doesn't use the tier in order to live on the mainland (in fact, several of my alts have premium membership so our landgroup can own mainland property cheaply and rent it out).

You're assuming that someone who is currently not a premium member, and is happily renting on a well-managed private estate will, if induced to take out premium membership in order to acquire a last name, promptly abandon the well-managed private estate where she's happy and go off and live in a Linden Home or somewhere on The Mainland, with all the disadvantages you so frequently describe at no small length.   

I don't think people work that way, mostly.   Some doubtless will, but not in such numbers, I think, that many private estates will notice the increased turnover in tenants, who come and go all the time.   People put a lot of time and effort into creating their SL living spaces and, once they've found somewhere they like, they tend not to move unless they have good reason to -- they need more space or they're partnering up with someone to rent a homestead, or they're cutting back on SL to the extent they don't need to rent anywhere, or something like that.

 

 

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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17 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

Paying for a character name, while not my cup of tea, isn't the only part people have a problem. It's paying TWICE for such, that people seem most pissed about, which makes perfect sense.

Paying for a character name, on top of also paying for the game/subscriptions is not even remotely common. 

Can you give us some examples of subscription-based games that don't offer you a way to change your name for a fee?

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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6 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Nah .. there has always been an bias against new or free accounts .. sometimes unconscious, sometimes not so much. This as offered paints an even bigger target and reinforces the class stratification of SL's user base.

 

Personally, I'd like to see age and payment info removed from profiles. We need to treat new users better, we need to be welcoming not suspicious, paranoid and trigger happy. SL needs to get back to growing .. and our long established behaviors aren't helping.

If it's not the "begone noobling" response, it's the "you have an IQ above your SL age in days and therefore must be an alt of an experienced player" line.

I don't like to judge other people, if it took them six months to work out how to right click -> add a mesh body, or how to google "second life blog" (second option is Strawberry Singh), then good for them. But I do appreciate it if people don't project their own inadequacies onto me.

I wish I could say it is just a small vocal minority, but in my experience I can roughly divide the SL playerbase into those who think that I'm am alt and think it's an issue, and those who think that I'm an alt but don't care. Highly frustrating.

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20 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I wish I could say it is just a small vocal minority, but in my experience I can roughly divide the SL playerbase into those who think that I'm am alt and think it's an issue, and those who think that I'm an alt but don't care. Highly frustrating.

There are a few of us that don't bother wasting brain cells on alt speculations at all, but unfortunately your experience is pretty much the rule of thumb.

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7 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

If it's not the "begone noobling" response, it's the "you have an IQ above your SL age in days and therefore must be an alt of an experienced player" line.

I don't like to judge other people, if it took them six months to work out how to right click -> add a mesh body, or how to google "second life blog" (second option is Strawberry Singh), then good for them. But I do appreciate it if people don't project their own inadequacies onto me.

I wish I could say it is just a small vocal minority, but in my experience I can roughly divide the SL playerbase into those who think that I'm am alt and think it's an issue, and those who think that I'm an alt but don't care. Highly frustrating.

When I first came here, I'd already had a fair bit of experience editing digital faces, and bodies, in 3D apps, and in games with customisation options. I entered a name, one I'd used elsewhere for many years, and which didn't have numbers in it, and it was available, I picked an avi off the signup page noob avi rotary display, downloaded the SL Inferiority Viewer and installed it, then... Paused, and checked out the MP, where I found a free skin pack that looked better than standard LL issue, and hair like wise, and an AO.

Logged in, did the noob island assault course training, avoided the infohup portal, found a place to rez my shopping, unpacked, redressed, went looking for things to do, 

2 hours into SL, arrive at a place and this fossil lays into me calling me a "filthy alt" because I'm 2 hours old and have a custom edited face and body shape, non LL issue skin and an AO, so obviously not only am I a STUPID resident named noob, but also a sinister ALT criminal too...

I told her to [censored] [deprecated as unsuitable for Muricans] [Oh MY!] [Is that even anatomically possible?].

I wish I could say it was an isolated example, but it's not, I've had it many many times, cretins who can barely find their asses with both hands in the dark, who are only 3 months older than myself in SL, assuming that because THEY have a Last Name, and I'm a resident, that OBVIOUSLY, their IQ is 200 points higher than mine, despite the fact they they are on the sim asking for help with rlv or a collar, and I'm the one providing it...

Two years after Lastnames were discontinued, a Lastnamer told me and everyone else present that "anyone who's account is less than 2 years old is a know-nothing idiot"

I've had a DJ b*tch at me because I was only a resident, and what could I possibly know about anything, to which the reply was "I know you are demanding a L$ 2000 per set job we don't have and I'm telling you that you are too stupid to work here and that the current year is 2014 not 2007".

Lastnamers seem to have an obsessive fear of alts, which is ironic because as an old old 1st Wave friend (rez date 2003) once said to me "you make a lot of alts when you've been in SL as long as I have...", the alt-a-phobic Lastnamers seem to have more of them than just about anyone else (one guy I met claimed to have 156 alts).


 

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Greetings again!

Please do not argue.  There are some REALLY good points raised after my initial post. 

1. Phil, you are very correct.  This needs clarification from Linden Lab. When a user creates an account, is it ONLY the last name they can pick, or does the feature allow them to pick a new first name as well?  I do not, and have not, heard anything about that.  I would recommend people attend the meetings where Last Names are discussed and ask :)

2.  Please remember that Linden Lab is not Blizzard, Club Penguin, IMVU, or any other system out there.  How they do things has absolutely no bearing on how Linden Lab does things.  The entire system set up is different.  I have played games where even after paying for an account, I had to pay extra for a character name change (WoW) ($10us), and I have played games where if I want a new/different name, I have had to kill/delete my character and start all over again (Ark Survival Evolved).  Linden Lab is very unique in that each avatar is its own account.  In order to change a name, the entire account name must be changed, not just a character name like in WoW.  Once you create an account name in WoW, it cannot be changed. In this respect, LL is currently more like Gmail, where if you want a different email address, you have to create a brand new account. 

3. Your Second Life account name is directly tied to everything in Second Life.  Changes to the name mean that there is a LOT of work that has to be done behind the scenes, including main database updates, Marketplace database updates, etc.  It may seem an "easy" process for users, but it is not. There are a lot of different people involved in getting everything updated.  

 

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8 minutes ago, Dakota Linden said:

3. Your Second Life account name is directly tied to everything in Second Life.  Changes to the name mean that there is a LOT of work that has to be done behind the scenes, including main database updates, Marketplace database updates, etc.  It may seem an "easy" process for users, but it is not. There are a lot of different people involved in getting everything updated. 

All the more reason to let the new accounts START with a chosen Double-Name, rather then making them pick a Single-Name then having to get...

10 minutes ago, Dakota Linden said:

a lot of different people involved in getting everything updated. 

... to convert them to a Double-Name after the fact...
 

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