Why does it cost serious money to own a sim?

[Phil Deakins]

10 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

Default is just what the programmer decided to be the default. In many cases it might not even be the best setting. The default camera position in the viewer is really bad one (I would refer to it as a view of the world from the top of a tree). For many years I have used better position for the camera and it works extremely well - anywhere in SL, whether the place is built oversized or if it's built with realistic (i.e. close to or exact real life dimensions).

So, there is no need to constantly change the camera position "to accommodate things" because the better camera position works well all over SL.
And it really gives a better view of SL. I would never ever go back to the default camera position.
My better camera position "just works" too - and better than the default. -

I already posted my agreement about that.

I also had a different camera position until I had to change my computer and redownload SL etc. Now I can't remember which setting to change. But it's ok. It's not that important. It just gave me a better view of the horizon, that's all. The point I made was that people aren't going to change their camera positions en-masse. I said that smaller stuff would work fine if everyone, or the majority, changed, but that's not going to happen.

Having said that, years ago I did tests of RL realistic sizes of stuff (room and furniture) in the process of a thread here - probably in RA - and I found that it simply didn't work. Not because you can't move or see in front of you, but because you can't see exactly where you're putting your feet when you walk around the stuff. It's the sense of exactly where your feet are that's the problem in RL-sized furnished rooms. RL eyes constantly move to change the view, so RL realistic sizes work perfectly well in RL, but the SL camera doesn't move and you're left with best guesses, which often fail. So, no matter where you position the camera, RL realistic rooms and furniture simply don't work in SL. Imagine walking about in your RL house but keeping your eyes steadfastly in one direction only. You'd soon have sore toes lol. What would work with RL-sized stuff in SL is a system where your RL head changed your view, but we ain't got that yet.

That said, I'm not saying the smaller avatars and stuff can't work. Imo, they can. I am actually saying that RL sizes of everything can't work. And I'm saying that people aren't going to change their cameras en-masse, so Penny has pretty much a vertically uphill battle.

I think I've gone off on a tangent. Penny wasn't suggesting RL sizes, and neither were you. She was suggesting reducing sizes, and that's different. I'm tempted to give it a shot. Perhaps I will.

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Phil Deakins

[Rob Huntsman]

5 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Would you pay 100$ a month for Linden Labs to allow the region you run on your computer to be connected to the SL grid?

No, but again the point at least for doing that you would have a skybox free to yourself. However, as for a major sim, it probably could even be a whole lot cheaper now thinking about using this third-party software.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

17 minutes ago, Haselden said:

No, but again the point at least for doing that you would have a skybox free to yourself. However, as for a major sim, it probably could even be a whole lot cheaper now thinking about using this third-party software.

So what would you do with a region that has no access to the main grid's content?

[Rob Huntsman]

34 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

So what would you do with a region that has no access to the main grid's content?

Well, you already claimed that inventory is already linked to the avatar in some form of a dif server. I do not think the link will be broken with those avatars by using this type of software. Letting them cross from the mainland or using third party server.

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

That said, I'm not saying the smaller avatars and stuff can't work. Imo, they can. I am actually saying that RL sizes of everything can't work. And I'm saying that people aren't going to change their cameras en-masse, so Penny has pretty much a vertically uphill battle.

Just a comment on this point  -- haven't read much of the rest.   

I do not disagree with Penny on the idea of a better camera angle. I have never tried  her camera angle settings but I think she should be able to do what she wants. 

A PROBLEM arises for content creators though -- as Phil has alluded to if not stated outright (again only skimmed). When you are creating for "the masses" you really need to think about how those masses will use your products  -- and their ease in doing so.  This is out there in that "real world" too of course and I dealt with it for many years in multimedia web design.  IF their was a closed system then the rules could certainly change (and work) for that system.

But we don't HAVE a closed system. We have folks with all strengths of computers and different viewers and different LOD settings and different Windlights and different --- well you get the idea.  

So -- in my mind anyway -- the folks making things to sell need to do the best they can with the rules that they have --- and those rules ARE the DEFAULTS -- be they good or not. 

 

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

34 minutes ago, Haselden said:

Well, you already claimed that inventory is already linked to the avatar in some form of a dif server. I do not think the link will be broken with those avatars by using this type of software. Letting them cross from the mainland or using third party server.

And here lies a problem, Linden Lab has no guaranties that you, or your server will honor copyright laws with the content that other residents have created, If Linden Lab doesn't trust some of our Secondlife Land barons, which deal with millions of dollars in business inworld...

Why would they trust you, or anyone really?

[Rob Huntsman]

1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

And here lies a problem, Linden Lab has no guaranties that you, or your server will honor copyright laws with the content that other residents have created, If Linden Lab doesn't trust some of our Secondlife Land barons, which deal with millions of dollars in business inworld...

Why would they trust you, or anyone really?

LOL now we go into politics what they say and can do with their game... Well, I won't argue with that. However, its food for thought I suppose. Third party servers could still be a possibility as well. 

[Penny Patton]

3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

A PROBLEM arises for content creators though -- as Phil has alluded to if not stated outright (again only skimmed). When you are creating for "the masses" you really need to think about how those masses will use your products  -- and their ease in doing so. 

...

 

So -- in my mind anyway -- the folks making things to sell need to do the best they can with the rules that they have --- and those rules ARE the DEFAULTS -- be they good or not. 

I don't disagree, when it comes to addressing the problems created by supersizing my argument has consistently been that the crux of the problem are the defaults and that it is up to LL to fix that. And they finally are, to a degree. (LL is working on a new camera UI which will include better presets, so no one will run into the problem Phil described where he reinstalled the viewer and couldn't recall how to alter the camera again. Many of the starter avatars are also smaller than those from previous years. Mostly the women avatars, but still. Babysteps.). Rather than fighting LL's defaults and the trends of the market at large, all I've suggested to content creators is that they might want to consider including two size versions of content they sell, the normal "supersized" version and a smaller "to scale" version, and some content creators have already begun doing this.

But let's not get off topic, my point in this thread is that if you own/rent land in SL then when you supersize everything there is a real, monetary, cost you pay. People can talk about whether or not they think it's feasible to scale down, the difficulties therein, whatever, at the end of the day you are still paying more for less when you supersize content and that is one of the reasons why land seems to cost so much money.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

2 hours ago, Haselden said:

LOL now we go into politics what they say and can do with their game... Well, I won't argue with that. However, its food for thought I suppose. Third party servers could still be a possibility as well. 

Yes because SecondLife is as much about the server your region runs on as it is a live connection to Linden Lab's asset server farm.

It isnt a coincidence that Philip Rosendale, the founder of Linden Lab was one of the pioneers at RealNetworks, a company who essentially dominated commercial audio and video streaming technologies on the web in 2000.

Secondlife is all about 3d content streaming.

17 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

But let's not get off topic, my point in this thread is that if you own/rent land in SL then when you supersize everything there is a real, monetary, cost you pay.

Regions support 0.3 prim per square meter no matter what.

 

Oh giant cyclopean creature, You gaze upon the land and see this water body as a mere puddle, but at the height of my 1m75 it's a most relaxing fishing pond.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Ceka Cianci]

On 5/24/2018 at 4:38 PM, Haselden said:

 Sims prices are one of the MAJOR issues why I see not many players coming to this game. For example, just to pay for an Estate/Region it is 300 dollars a month. Which is absurd. You have communities from each sim TEAMING UP just to pay for this. Like what in the bloody hell? Whats sad is that it's probably been like this for the 15 years of SL's lifespan. Not many people are going to put up with that with today's generation. As in people won't pay for that they prefer "FREE" games.

This is why people go and play other games, and why this game has so many trolls. With today's Technology, I do not believe these sims are even worth that much. For example, a Homestead is really worth 25-40 bucks, whereas an Estate/Region I wouldn't pay any more than 70 dollars for. If I'm talking about its true value in content.

I'm not trying to be rude about it either, but I really don't think these laggy "Sims" are even worth that much.

So I'm curious other than the fact its Lindons game, they can do what they want. Why are they doing this?

I'm Guessing,Because $300.00+ is about how much it costs to rent a server per month on avg..

Edited May 27, 2018 by Ceka Cianci

[Coby Foden]

12 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Having said that, years ago I did tests of RL realistic sizes of stuff (room and furniture) in the process of a thread here - probably in RA - and I found that it simply didn't work. Not because you can't move or see in front of you, but because you can't see exactly where you're putting your feet when you walk around the stuff.

You already know how to adjust your view while walking, don't you? You can look down, look up, turn, thus you will see where you are putting your feet. No sore toes.
But maybe you find that kind of walking too difficult? It might be due to the walking speed of avatar, which is constant.

It would be great if we could vary our walking speed. In general SL avatars walk too fast. It's ok outside and in large buildings and houses.
For smaller interiors we would need slower walking speed. Just like in real life, we walk slowly inside our homes, outside we usually walk faster.

[Coby Foden]

15 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Having said that, years ago I did tests of RL realistic sizes of stuff (room and furniture) in the process of a thread here - probably in RA - and I found that it simply didn't work.

The point is that giant avatars need bigger rooms than realistic sized avatars. I'm sure you understand this.
Real life sized avatars are happier too in slightly bigger rooms than what we have in RL.
But for them the RL sized furniture works the best. No need to make them oversized "to fill the void" because the room is not massively oversized as it should be for giant avatars.

I have tested many items which obviously have been creating just by eyeballing and 'guesstimating'.
Those do not not work well.
Here I ordered a glass of wine, and I was given this - a bowl of wine!
It's too big even for the tallest SL avatar what is possible to create.

The fact is that real life sized things do work in SL when the avatar is not a giant.
In Sansar the content and avatars are created to real life sizes and it indeed does work well.

Cheers!  (When I've finished the bowl somebody needs to carry me home.)

Edited May 27, 2018 by Coby Foden

[Klytyna]

7 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

Cheers!  (When I've finished the bowl somebody needs to carry me home.)

Personally, I can't stand those titchy half pint glasses either, bigger is better, saves trips to the bar or trying to talk to a French waiter...

Edited May 27, 2018 by Klytyna

[ChinRey]

40 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

or trying to talk to a French waiter...

Trying to talk is exactly the right phrase after one of those

But joke aside and back to the original topic for a minute. The reason it costs serious money to buy a sim is that Linden Lab needs that money and they have no other realistic way to replace the income from tier and sim rentals. Linden Lab may have bee a gold mine for the shareholders once but not anymore. Today it is not about maximizing profit, it's about scraping together enough dough to pay the bills. Much of their excessive expenses may be due to poor decisions in the past, but that's neither here nor there. What's done is done and no amount of could-haves and should-haves can change that.

Edited May 27, 2018 by ChinRey

[Coffee Pancake]

It's not that simple, SL does cost a fortune to run and not just in terms of LL's own data center.

[Klytyna]

2 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

What's done is done and no amount of could-hves and should-haves can change that.

Crazy idea, off the top of my head...

Close the Project stupid Money Pit, and forget to hand  out gold watches and "golden goodbye" cheques to the outgoing Project ex-staff...

That would be a good start, don't you think?
 

[ChinRey]

1 minute ago, CoffeeDujour said:

It's not that simple, SL does cost a fortune to run and not just in terms of LL's own data center.

Yes, my point exactly.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

Crazy idea, off the top of my head...

Close the Project stupid Money Pit, and forget to hand  out gold watches and "golden goodbye" cheques to the outgoing Project ex-staff...

That would be a good start, don't you think?

To early and too late. There is an old saying about getting a tiger by the tail...

[MegaRose]

I love reading threads like these.  I'm getting a tech lesson and a history lesson all in one.

A question- how much of Linden Lab's costs could be offset by more users buying more L$?  In theory that could balance out their reliance on land fees, but in practice would the presence of more accounts, more inventories, and more bandwidth usage just make it worse?

[Ceka Cianci]

LL is a virtual land business/server space..

Early 2000's to rent a server for a game per month on avg,you were looking at around 250.00 usd.. Today the avg is around 300.00..

I'm sure they have other things going on,but when it comes right down it. A sim is nothing more than renting server space from LL.

Each has it's own server address and each with one person in control that can hand out admin privileges.The one with the contract with LL.

Even the search resembles the game server searches.

Time and time again Philip said in so many words, LL is in the virtual land business,when it comes to second life.

I'm willing to bet the bulk of a full Sim's price is server space.

[Phil Deakins]

21 hours ago, Coby Foden said:

You already know how to adjust your view while walking, don't you? You can look down, look up, turn, thus you will see where you are putting your feet. No sore toes.

No I don't know that. If it's done by moving the mouse while holding the left mouse button down on the avatar, I only came across that method of changing the view very recently. If that's the way it's done, it's a 2-handed job, and, for a right-handed person, either requires getting used to using the wasd keys or using the mouse with the wrong hand. In other words it's a bit convoluted and would take some getting used to. On the other hand, the average sizes in SL work fine as they are.

There's another point that I've made in previous threads. There is no reason whatsoever for the SL world to be like the RL world. They are totally different worlds. So there is no reason whatsever for SL people to generally be the same average sizes as RL people. None.

We are still off on a tangent of a tangent

[Hintswen Guardian]

On 5/27/2018 at 4:25 AM, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Would you pay 100$ a month for Linden Labs to allow the region you run on your computer to be connected to the SL grid?

As someone who already runs a number of servers I would love to be able to do that, as a SL user however I would hate for people to be able to do this as it introduces so many problems... connection issues caused by slow connections on servers, bad performance caused by cheaper or overloaded servers etc.

[Coby Foden]

1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

No I don't know that. If it's done by moving the mouse while holding the left mouse button down on the avatar, I only came across that method of changing the view very recently. If that's the way it's done, it's a 2-handed job, and, for a right-handed person, either requires getting used to using the wasd keys or using the mouse with the wrong hand. In other words it's a bit convoluted and would take some getting used to. On the other hand, the average sizes in SL work fine as they are.

There's another point that I've made in previous threads. There is no reason whatsoever for the SL world to be like the RL world. They are totally different worlds. So there is no reason whatsever for SL people to generally be the same average sizes as RL people. None.

We are still off on a tangent of a tangent

Camera control while walking:

• Method 1 (two hand operation):
Left click your avatar and hold. Start walking pressing W-key.
Then slide the mouse: forward - camera goes down, backwards camera goes higher.
Slide the mouse left, avatar turns left. Slide the mouse right, avatar turns right.
All this available while the avatar walks. Wherever you walk you can see clearly any obstacles on the way.
Note: you don't need to use all the WASD-keys. Just holding down the W-key is enough. Very easy and convenient way to manipulate walking.

• Method 2 (single hand operation):
Left click your avatar and hold. Then click also the right mouse button and hold. The avatar starts walking. Yay!
Then slide the mouse: forward - camera goes down, backwards camera goes higher.
Slide the mouse left, avatar turns left. Slide the mouse right, avatar turns right.

These both methods work at least in Firestorm viewer. I haven't tried them in the Linden Lab viewer.
Personally I find method 1 easier to use than method 2.
In method 2 when sliding the mouse, I tend to lose keeping down both mouse buttons.

About your RL vs. SL comparison (again):
Even though SL and RL are totally different worlds as you say (what a surprise, nobody knew that! ) there is a very good reason for consistent sizing of things.
What better way there would be for consistent sizing reference in any virtual world than to use real life measurements?  None at all.
Using "avatar average heights" as a reference is not good method. Every designer might have their own idea of the average heights. Which is quite evident when looking the creations in Second Life. Combine that with creating content by eyeballing and guesstimating and we have the mess what we have in SL.

[Coby Foden]

Example, using method 1 when walking. Easy and great way to control the avatar and the camera.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Coby Foden

[Phil Deakins]

@Coby Foden

The one-handed method doesn't work in the LL viewer.

The 2-handed method does work, and it's nowhere near as weird to use as I'd imagined. I'd imagined having to operate more than just the 'w' key. It does mean that I can't take a swig of tea whilst doing it though, and that's a big negative

Yes, consistent sizing of stuff would be good - at least within chunks of SL (I'm thinking of a novelty Lilliput-type and/or Giant-type chunk). But I see no reason at all for it to be RL sizes. The default camera position doesn't suit it, and that's what we're stuck with.