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Haselden

Why does it cost serious money to own a sim?

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 Sims prices are one of the MAJOR issues why I see not many players coming to this game. For example, just to pay for an Estate/Region it is 300 dollars a month. Which is absurd. You have communities from each sim TEAMING UP just to pay for this. Like what in the bloody hell? Whats sad is that it's probably been like this for the 15 years of SL's lifespan. Not many people are going to put up with that with today's generation. As in people won't pay for that they prefer "FREE" games.

This is why people go and play other games, and why this game has so many trolls. With today's Technology, I do not believe these sims are even worth that much. For example, a Homestead is really worth 25-40 bucks, whereas an Estate/Region I wouldn't pay any more than 70 dollars for. If I'm talking about its true value in content.

I'm not trying to be rude about it either, but I really don't think these laggy "Sims" are even worth that much.

So I'm curious other than the fact its Lindons game, they can do what they want. Why are they doing this?

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Because they don't want people to buy a region with some impractical plan and then abandon it a few months later (that's what Mainland is for.) It already would take you dozens of years to visit every region at the rate of one new one a day. The last thing Second Life needs is more land. In fact,  much of their pricing appears to be to scare away people who don't know what they're doing (i.e.  not knowing that you can often get a region for 2/3 of what you think the price is by looking for "grandfathered" regions that are on sale.)

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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Value is subjective and I'm pretty sure LL have decided with a reasonable degree of confidence that people are willing to pay that much for a sim. But yeah, what Pamela said, there might be some upcoming changes to sim prices with the upcoming move to the cloud for a certain type of sim or new type of sim.

Plus, if you really think a full region should only cost that much, you can get it for $59-$60 a month with 59-60 annual premium alts that donate to group land :) (though you will have to pay $72 a year in advance for all of them). Or you can just find 58-59 other people who are willing to go annual premium and help with the land's tier / fee.

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25 minutes ago, Haselden said:

So I'm curious other than the fact its Lindons game, they can do what they want. Why are they doing this?

Programmers cost money, as do lawyers, donuts, alcohol, the CEO's car, the rent on the building, the cleaning staff, and so on.

Until now a large chunk of the money for these was gathered from people who own regions, the Lab have been trying to shift this balance to be more fair, so that more and more players will fund the business, and not just the land holders.

This change will see the price of land drop a little, but don't  hold your breath for it.

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11 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Because they don't want people to buy a region with some impractical plan and then abandon it a few months later (that's what Mainland is for.) It already would take you dozens of years to visit every region at the rate of one new one a day. The last thing Second Life needs is more land. In fact,  much of their pricing appears to be to scare away people who don't know what they're doing (i.e.  not knowing that you can often get a region for 2/3 of what you think the price is by looking for "grandfathered" regions that are on sale.)

Couldn't SL create a system to Re-sell or Re-use the abandoned land? For example, when a sim closes they try to resell it to another renter. I get the point of this though.

 

17 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Check the blog for upcoming land cost changes.

I'll take a look but I couldn't find anything. OR Animesh release date.

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4 minutes ago, Haselden said:

Couldn't SL create a system to Re-sell or Re-use the abandoned land? For example, when a sim closes they try to resell it to another renter. I get the point of this though.

Errr... have you ever looked what happens in the land section of this forum?

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22 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Errr... have you ever looked what happens in the land section of this forum?

Would make more sense selling those "Abandon" sims at a lower price, than re-creating more.

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13 hours ago, Haselden said:

Why are they doing this?

Kenny Linden once said:

"There's always another guy to buy the island."

That was the attitude LL had back when the land price level was determined. They were printing sims as fast as they could and people were happy to buy at just about any price. Then, when things started to cool off, LL failed to notice and adjust. It wasn't until Ebbe took over in 2014 they seriously started to look at cost efficiency and by then it was too late really. Ebbe said it straight himself: he thought the land prices were too high but they couldn't simply reduce them because there was no guarantee they could compensate for the loss of income any other way.

They are trying now, reducing the tier a little bit and increasing the MP and LindeX fees instead. That is a very risky strategy. People aren't going to start shopping more than they do, so it inevitably means less income for merchants and rental companies and other independent entrepeneurs. Unless the entrepeneurs find ways to channel the money outside the system that is. And they might. Several big rental businesses are already accepting rent payments directly through PayPal.

 

12 hours ago, Haselden said:

Would make more sense selling those "Abandon" sims at a lower price, than re-creating more.

I don't think there are many - if any - brand new sims created.

According to gridsurvey.com, 106 new sims were added to the grid the last 30 days (and 203 sims were closed down). At least ten of them are temporary sims for various annual events. During the same time period six sims were advertised for sale on the forum. How many private sims are sold outside the forum is anybody's guess but I'd be surprised if the number isn't much, much bigger than the ones we see listed here.

Edited by ChinRey
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1 hour ago, Haselden said:

Not many people are going to put up with that with today's generation. As in people won't pay for that they prefer "FREE" games.

That description of "today's generation" is either comical or sad. Free? Maybe that's why everyone's profile says 10 years or longer. We're too old to expect anything for free. Lindens, are you listening? The Millennials  want it free.

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43 minutes ago, Cedric Brown said:

That description of "today's generation" is either comical or sad. Free? Maybe that's why everyone's profile says 10 years or longer. We're too old to expect anything for free. Lindens, are you listening? The Millennials  want it free.

That is why in Sansar a small experience is free...

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Electricity aint free, hardware aint free,  support aint free,  datacenter costs are not free.  should I keep going,  this is a unique product offered by the lab,  it's hand built and there is nothing on the market that could replace it to make it cheaper,  their cloud move might help out in the long run, but they must even look at their costs with it too.  

 

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That you spend your time in SL 'playing Gor' doesn't mean that others view SL as a game - you can't compare Second Life to some free to play MOBA that lives on micro-transactions for lootbox cosmetics.

Having a sim at your disposal is so much more than having a game, you can turn it into an art installation, you can create a social venue with a huge network of patrons, you can turn it into a store and spin an income which by far exceeds the cost of the sim itself, or you can subdivide it into a mall or home rental and let others do the paying for you. Or you can stand around clicking around with a pixel sword and feel manly because RNG/Lag was on your side and complain about how it isn't something else than what it is.

USD$60 per month for all that potential - and that's only if you really, really need a full sim to begin with. You can get a half, a quarter, an eighth, or so forth to suit your needs. 

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36 minutes ago, Orwar said:

That you spend your time in SL 'playing Gor' doesn't mean that others view SL as a game - you can't compare Second Life to some free to play MOBA that lives on micro-transactions for lootbox cosmetics.

Having a sim at your disposal is so much more than having a game, you can turn it into an art installation, you can create a social venue with a huge network of patrons, you can turn it into a store and spin an income which by far exceeds the cost of the sim itself, or you can subdivide it into a mall or home rental and let others do the paying for you. Or you can stand around clicking around with a pixel sword and feel manly because RNG/Lag was on your side and complain about how it isn't something else than what it is.

USD$60 per month for all that potential - and that's only if you really, really need a full sim to begin with. You can get a half, a quarter, an eighth, or so forth to suit your needs. 

This is like saying making a free youtube account. I can pull in millions like the famous youtuber Pewidepie or other YouTubers. If I provided great content like he does. However, with these "Sims" you can't really do that except sale items as content. 

Although, even when trying RP on urban sims such as http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Moonlight Garden/28/107/34. My experience of it is ruined by lag. Everytime a player or someone logs in, the chat lags cant move etc. It's like a robot is already running these "Sims."  So is why I raise the question "Why are people paying 300 bucks for this?"

With SL Combat, the experience is tied to the same deal in fact a bunch of Drama goes down when the raiders Log in and out because of this lag issue. Because this will create "Arrow lag."

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33 minutes ago, Haselden said:

Although, even when trying RP on urban sims such as http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Moonlight Garden/28/107/34. My experience of it is ruined by lag. Everytime a player or someone logs in, the chat lags cant move etc. It's like a robot is already running these "Sims."  So is why I raise the question "Why are people paying 300 bucks for this?"

It isn't the SIM that is the issue, it is the CONTENT of the sim. 

I went over to the link you mentioned. I had 14 fps and I was the only person in the sim. 

I teleported  back to MY sim (LEA6) and had 168 fps. This in mostly because I DESIGNED the sim to be user friendly with high FPS. There is so much heavy mesh around these days that it is easy to fill a sim with it and not be able to move. That is NOT the sim's fault. You could say that it is part The Lab's fault for letting folks make and upload that heavy mesh -- and you would be correct. But it doesn't mean things HAVE to be laggy; it is up the the person putting the sim design together to make wise choices. I have built many full sim installations and they all ran well.  It just is in the knowing -- and the doing of course. 

Note that even my MAINLAND store at GROUND level was running at 76 fps -- all at this same time. 

And many people are not paying $300.   

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

Value is subjective and I'm pretty sure LL have decided with a reasonable degree of confidence that people are willing to pay that much for a sim. But yeah, what Pamela said, there might be some upcoming changes to sim prices with the upcoming move to the cloud for a certain type of sim or new type of sim.

Plus, if you really think a full region should only cost that much, you can get it for $59-$60 a month with 59-60 annual premium alts that donate to group land :) (though you will have to pay $72 a year in advance for all of them). Or you can just find 58-59 other people who are willing to go annual premium and help with the land's tier / fee.

Less than that. More like $29 dollars

So 60 accounts at $72 = $4320 a year to pre pay premium for all of them. Thats per year.

Then we take into account the money we get back from stipend. Per account thats $L300*52 weeks= $L15600 + ($L1000 sign up bonus) = $L16600 lindens per year which is currently $66.14 to buy on the Lindex.

Multiply that value by 60 avatars = $3968.4

Take that away from the original $4320 = $351.6

Then we divide per month to get the overall monthly value = 351.6/12= $29.30

Not a bad price xD

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56 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

It isn't the SIM that is the issue, it is the CONTENT of the sim. 

I went over to the link you mentioned. I had 14 fps and I was the only person in the sim. 

I teleported  back to MY sim (LEA6) and had 168 fps. This in mostly because I DESIGNED the sim to be user friendly with high FPS. There is so much heavy mesh around these days that it is easy to fill a sim with it and not be able to move. That is NOT the sim's fault. You could say that it is part The Lab's fault for letting folks make and upload that heavy mesh -- and you would be correct. But it doesn't mean things HAVE to be laggy; it is up the the person putting the sim design together to make wise choices. I have built many full sim installations and they all ran well.  It just is in the knowing -- and the doing of course. 

Note that even my MAINLAND store at GROUND level was running at 76 fps -- all at this same time. 

And many people are not paying $300.   

 

 

 

 

I usually get 50 FPS when going there... And I really doubt you're only one on the sim.

I just went to stop by if things changed, but same old they're like 40+ on sim all just RPing. And you're missing the point of it, this issue happens at stores to make the experience going to stores like blueberry, Catwa, or other popular stores sort of a pain as well cause of the lag. It's really not the mesh, I honestly think all your doing is just paying Lindon labs to flip the switch for the grid to turn it off or on then charge you 300 a month for an overpriced electric bill for their service.

However, if you want a homestead or something small that won't work to get "RP" its only good for a private spot that sometimes trolls can still even break into. It's not worth the money at its current price.

Edit: It's most likely like that too because when someone logs into the "Region" or enters. It loads all the stuff inside their inventory onto the sim, but again there's no staff involved in this sim process. All software.

Edited by Haselden
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6 hours ago, Haselden said:

 You have communities from each sim TEAMING UP just to pay for this. Like what in the bloody hell? 

and tell me what;s wrong with a community of... lets say... 30-60 people paying a 5 to 10 bucks a month for use of a full sim? (3.25  to 6.50 when grandfathered?)

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5 hours ago, D4rkHax said:

Less than that. More like $29 dollars

So 60 accounts at $72 = $4320 a year to pre pay premium for all of them. Thats per year.

Then we take into account the money we get back from stipend. Per account thats $L300*52 weeks= $L15600 + ($L1000 sign up bonus) = $L16600 lindens per year which is currently $66.14 to buy on the Lindex.

Multiply that value by 60 avatars = $3968.4

Take that away from the original $4320 = $351.6

Then we divide per month to get the overall monthly value = 351.6/12= $29.30

Not a bad price xD

Thanks for explaining how that works, maths is not my strong point and I had wondered how it could end up being so cheap. Unfortunately, I would probably just go shopping and spend all the lindens from my alts stipends, making the whole thing a very expensive exercise.

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9 hours ago, Cedric Brown said:

That description of "today's generation" is either comical or sad. Free? Maybe that's why everyone's profile says 10 years or longer. We're too old to expect anything for free. Lindens, are you listening? The Millennials  want it free.

Oldie here, but sims are to expensive. somethu g around 10$ for a sim would be a good price.

 

8 hours ago, Fionalein said:

That is why in Sansar a small experience is free...

Small ? The experienes between free and payed are the same size. And you get 3 free. if you start to pay. it begins at 10$ you get more experiences and support.

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Allright here is my two cents:

  • Secondlife was not designed with region ownership in mind but mainland ownership, that's where your affordable land is, and it just became more affordable a few weeks ago since the yearly premium now gets you 1024sqm instead of 512sqm.
  • Secondlife has many hidden costs, one of them is that we have more than 14 years of content in the asset servers now being serviced and backed up by Linden Lab, and this thing has to stay running no matter what, before everything else, and Linden Lab isn't Google.

Ultimately Linden Lab isn't a charity and regions will cost the price people are willing to pay for it. And since the majority of private regions are being used by people who either can pool the money, or are using it for business reasons, then the price will remain a business style price, and since it's really is their only stable income, it's probably going to stay this way.

I know no one wants to hear this but the mainland has gigantic plains of abandoned land. Entire regions in fact. If you want it all you have to do is file a support ticket and win it once it's auctioned off.

Also dare I mention that Sansar is probably not profitable at all at this time?

As for the performance complaints, blame creators, they are the ones responsible for making SecondLife friendly content and they aren't.

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12 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

Plus, if you really think a full region should only cost that much, you can get it for $59-$60 a month with 59-60 annual premium alts that donate to group land :) (though you will have to pay $72 a year in advance for all of them). Or you can just find 58-59 other people who are willing to go annual premium and help with the land's tier / fee.

keep in mind this only counts for mainland sims.. not possible to use your tier level for estates.

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2 hours ago, Richardus Raymaker said:

Oldie here, but sims are to expensive. somethu g around 10$ for a sim would be a good price.

I think 10$ is a bit unrealistic. Yes, you can get a sim for that price on the hypergrid but Linden Lab has a lot more expenses they need to cover.

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13 hours ago, Cedric Brown said:

That description of "today's generation" is either comical or sad. Free? Maybe that's why everyone's profile says 10 years or longer. We're too old to expect anything for free. Lindens, are you listening? The Millennials  want it free.

To be fair: People who count as Millenials (also refered to as generation Y) are currently between the ages of around 22 to 37 years. Anyone younger already counts as the next generation (generation Z). So not everything usually blamed on younger people is a case of "stupid Millenials".

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8 hours ago, Haselden said:

I honestly think all your doing is just paying Lindon labs to flip the switch for the grid to turn it off or on then charge you 300 a month for an overpriced electric bill for their service.

Wow. If you really believe this, you don't understand how this thing works at all.

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