Racism in player profiles

[Beth Macbain]

16 minutes ago, Dano Seale said:

So, I've been judged and condemned simply because I believe the scales should be equally balanced? ...well, ok, you're welcome I guess! 

You think the scales are equally balanced?

Maybe this will help. Saw it on FB today.

 

“A pic of the riots in Minneapolis, MN last night.

...ohh wait, that’s not Minneapolis. That’s San Francisco after the Giants won the WS in 2010.

Black people riot when they are fed up with their lives being seen as disposable.  White people riot when their team wins a ball game. 

So if you think I’m going to give two sh**s about some inconvenienced truckers last night, you’re wrong.“

Slightly edited to change broken windows to inconvenienced truckers.

Maybe it’s different in the UK, but here there are multiple incidents every single day of black people being beaten, arrested, and/or flat out murdered for committing crimes like driving while black, sitting while black, walking while black, eating while black...

I’m a middle aged white woman and have never had to fear the police. That is not the reality for every single black person in the US.

Every single one.

And time and time again, their fear has been shown to be completely justified.

The scales are NOT balanced.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Beth Macbain
Ducking autocorrect.

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, Dano Seale said:

So, I've been judged and condemned simply because I believe the scales should be equally balanced? ...well, ok, you're welcome I guess! 

You want the offending profile to exist because it's only fair these racists and bigots  get to express their opinion too?

Where is the fairness for the Jewish people who were murdered by these nazi's...and the Black people who are still murdered today?

You can't imagine that a bit of censorship might be a way to create fairness for the oppressed, or at least a bit of safety for them?

The offending profile posted by the OP:

"They call me nazi, and I'm proud about it
they call me racist, and I shout it out loud
I'm proud of my race, I'm proud of my land
white brothers and sisters
come and raise your hand"

Edited May 28, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Derek Torvalar]

Hi Scylla!😉

[Luna Bliss]

Jesus Christ, do I have to become aware yet again that these Free-dumb miscreants don't just exist in America?

[Rhun DeCuir]

31 minutes ago, Dano Seale said:

So, I've been judged and condemned simply because I believe the scales should be equally balanced? ...well, ok, you're welcome I guess! 

Nope.  

[Rhun DeCuir]

I am continually saddened by the fact that some men think that the only way they can be a man is through violence and toxicity; while being unaware that these traits only make them weak.

[Janet Voxel]

This thread is....wow

[Maitimo]

Yeah I think I am going to ask the mods to close it.

It served its purpose two years ago.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I'm kind of stupified that we apparently have to have this discussion.

Again.

[Rhun DeCuir]

29 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

This thread is....wow

IKR!?

12 minutes ago, Maitimo said:

Yeah I think I am going to ask the mods to close it.

It served its purpose two years ago.

It's probably for the best.

[Dano Seale]

1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

The scales are NOT balanced.

Yes Beth, this was my only point I was making, not balanced for EITHER side of whichever coin it may be! I just believe it should be, is all.

Sorry for the thread closure, wasn't my intention.

[Maitimo]

Edited May 28, 2020 by Maitimo

[Prokofy Neva]

On 5/21/2018 at 4:10 AM, Maitimo said:

This is a two-fold question, inspired by the profile of a player I came across a couple of days ago.  Without naming the player, here's what he wrote in his profile...

So I have a couple of questions. First, is this worthy of an AR?

Second, if you bought something from a player and then later discovered that they had something like this in their profile, would you delete what you bought from them? I just did exactly that, can't tell if over-reacting or not. But that kind of attitude makes me ... want to write words that would not be allowed here. 

1) Yes, by all means abuse report them, it's against the TOS. It's wrong, morally, and in some jurisdictions even legally. And SL is a jurisdiction where it is likely in violation of the TOS. The Lindens don't always enforce every instance they find so good luck.

2) If you start with the premise that you should delete all content over a person's views (or, as is often done, block sales to people whose views you dislike), you will really not have a market made up of anything but those most vetted RenFaire style guild masters. And I'm not for that. I find Gor reprehensible as an ideology, and will debate it forever, but I feel the marketplace is one area where you can mitigate bad ideologies and also bridge irreconcilable differences. I'm happy to buy some Gor chore or medicine if it fits in my build about a physician because nobody else is bothering, really. Most of 30L Saturday sales are taken up with Goreans or those willing to cater to Goreans.

I will look at a bed, say, from a given artist, and if it contains chains and whips, I won't buy it because personally I abhor BDSM and while I am happy to provide adult beds to my rental customers even though they are not of interest to me personally in SL, I don't see why I need to promulgate an ideology containing violence to women, often wrapped up in a fake notion of consent that is belied by the number of sub recover groups and zones there are.

But if that customer wants their BDSM or vampire bite or whatever (human cow!) item, that's their call, they get to do what they want in the privacy of their own home and it's not my business nor LL's unless it violates the TOS. Am I going to ban a child avatar on the basis of that status? In some areas I put "no child avatars" for very good reason because long experience has taught me of the havoc they cause and more importantly, most of the customers don't want them there. Am I going to ban them from any area where I don't have that rule? No, not unless I find they put an adult bed in their rental and belong to a "Daddy" group. Then out they go, with an AR to boot.

It really comes down to your own personal ethics. But just as we don't delete the poems of Ezra Pound or the symphonies of Wagner despite their aid and comfort to the Nazis, so I don't think we should delete a thing made by your player or a Gorean or what have you. Hopefully art can transcend their beliefs. You might not want to buy from them again. Some merchant event might want to expel them as most of those events have rules about not propagating hate. But it's not always easy to make a call between generally bad beliefs and how much they are acted on or harm others.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 5/23/2018 at 2:11 PM, Alyona Su said:

This is very true. Though the Supreme Court has also determined "freedom of association" to be part of the First Amendment (Boys Scouts vs LGBT (paraphrased)).

Taking this into consideration, the first part of the "racist" statement says this person has been "called" these things and takes pride in being called such, but doesn't go as far as to proclaim they are actually that, the end part of the statement falls under this aspect of the first amendment. But now we are just splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs. To which I think the following applies:

You go, girl! SHOOT 'EM ALL AND LET LL SORT 'EM OUT! Hahahaha

Well, if we're on Boy Scouts of America v. Dale, let's recall that the court upheld the right to have an association that defines beliefs and to expel members who don't comply with those beliefs as part of the First Amendment, so that if the Boy Scouts expel a gay scoutmaster, in their belief (mistaken though it may be) that gay scoutmasters may be a threat to children, then they get to do that. And the gay scouts can make their own group and articulate their beliefs, that's what freedom of speech and freedom of association are all about. Unless you can find incitement to imminent violence or incitement to actual discrimination in employment, it's going to be hard to overturn this because the gay scoutmaster doesn't have to seek a job at the Scouts (or a Catholic school) but can go to some other place with more enlightened views. Like PS the wedding cake purchasers. 

But the reality of the era is such that even so, the Boy Scouts were hounded to death over this. Parents boycotted them; LGBT leaders denounced them; companies decided not to sponsor the Scouts. And in the end, the Boy Scouts did the right thing and changed their charter. This is still debated, of course, and maybe the damage is irrevocable. 

The point is that the law does not always decide such things. Social media does, for good or bad.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 6/10/2018 at 7:49 PM, Kristen Beornssen said:

You people do realize that the majority of those "black bulls" and the groups associated with fetishizing them aren't really "black" at all don't you?  As much as it has been debated on this forum, I mean that should be common knowledge by now, which it apparently isn't given the comments.

Not only that, those groups and all associated with them are a point of contention within the actual black SL community, but of course, you wouldn't know about that. People choose to remain willfully ignorant of such things.

Oh, totally. Yesterday I clicked on one of the Lindens' lovely picks in Destinations with something about books and flowers and dreams, and I thought great! But they were rolling, rolling restarts and so they bumped me to the Horizons Safe Hub, God knows why, as I have no interest in either of these places or topics. And the next person to step on my head was one of those big black bucks with a -- well, never mind, this is a family newspaper. And I was 100% certain that guy was a white as Wonder Bread.

[Tolya Ugajin]

On 5/23/2018 at 7:54 AM, Phil Deakins said:

I have to comment on that. I just have to

If IBM produced machines for the nazis, knowing that they would be used to assist the extermination of people, then you would have a very good point. But I don't believe for one second, or even for a fraction of a second, that that's what happened, so I have no qualms about owning stuff produced by IBM. I can't even imagine that IBM produced anything for the nazis, but rather that the nazis bought some IBM stuff, just like other businesses did back then. So I don't see that the point you made is any point at all.

You could equally say that such-and-such company produced the computers that were used by whoever to cyber-attack whatever, and question whether or not any of us should be using computers made by that company. It's just as outlandish a thought.

In the case of the profile, I agree with those who suggest that it's just a statement about the person himself and, as such, is just free speech. If it were a call to action, it would be different, of course, but it doesn't appear to be that, however distasteful it is.

How about Volkswagen, a company literally started to fulfill Hitler's promise of affordable cars for all?  Shouldn't driving a "Hitlermobile" (as I've actually heard them called, although not in Germany) be considered offensive?

Of course, like so many such promises (not just by Hitler) it was never fulfilled, but that is why the company was started.  

By the way, my question was rhetorical - of course it shouldn't be.

[Tolya Ugajin]

On 5/23/2018 at 6:49 AM, Alyona Su said:

This.

In the U.S. (which is where LL is and, presumably this person is) the First Amendment to the Constitution affords the Freedom of Speech. That also means as much as we dislike what other's say or are offended by it is when that amendment comes into full force. 

I generally take the side of most people here in denouncing all this. However, let us also be realists here:

• There is no actual racism being expressed unless you insert it by innuendo
• Proclaiming to be part of a group only indicates your support of that groups ideals, whether you share them or not
• Calling together one particular ethnic group is not attacking another

And furthermore, it appears to be some kind of poem. I'm not making excuses or intending to defend this person, I am saying that in the U.S. what this person plops into their profile is protected speech (in the United Staes, at least) and is likely intended to get very discussions, such as this one, rolling (Well, actually intended to offend, but there is no TOS or other laws in any respectable country that give you the "freedom from being offended").

In short, this person appears to just be a troll.

As for deleting what I purchased? That's is context-based - what it actually is and such, though would likely never buy from them again. Here's an example: Have you ever owned anything created by IBM, ever? Did you know they produced the machines that helped the Nazi's manage their extermination efforts during the Holocaust? Just saying, folks.

The First Amendment does not constrain how businesses choose to operate, it constrains how the government operates.  As such, it does not apply here.  LL can do, or not do, whatever they please with this.

[Beth Macbain]

The thread was only mostly dead before. Now it’s super dead!

RIP in pieces.

[Tolya Ugajin]

On 6/4/2018 at 4:27 AM, Drake1 Nightfire said:

That would be because of Germanys anti-nazi laws. We believe in a little thing called Freedom of Speech in the US. Aside from a quote from a band in his profile, did he actually say anything racist? Is there really any difference between what this song says and what the Black Power Movement says? Why should he not be proud to be white? I am. None of my ancestors owned slaves, although several of them were slaves. I have Irish Gypsies in my ancestry, do you have any idea how they were treated? At one point in time every race was enslaved by another. Hell, whites were enslaved by other whites, in all but name. The things the English did to the Irish, Scots, Indians, and Chinese were atrocious. 

This, this is just words. Harmless ones at that. If you are that offended by lyrics in a profile,  you need to get off the internet. And i dont mean you specifically. The general "you."

At one point, the most commonly trades slaves in the Mediterranean basin were, ironically, Slavs, either traded down the Russian rivers to the Black Sea, or via Muslim invasions of Southeastern Europe.   Later on, 1/3 of the population of Russia were serfs; the differentiation between slave and serf is mainly semantic.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Dano Seale said:

Yes Beth, this was my only point I was making, not balanced for EITHER side of whichever coin it may be! I just believe it should be, is all.

Sorry for the thread closure, wasn't my intention.

I'm not convinced you understand the issues here totally, so maybe we should cut you a little slack?

In any case, you've never truly lived on the forum until you had a mass of people lining up against you....       

Edited May 29, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Tolya Ugajin]

On 6/12/2018 at 9:49 AM, Dakota Linden said:

Greetings all!

1. Profanity is NOT appropriate on the forums. Trying to get around that policy by masking the words with *** or any other similar alterations doesn't change the fact that you ARE posting a profanity.  I have edited the posts that contained the profanity in order to preserve the conversation.  If you do it again, I will have no choice but to start handing out warnings or suspensions. 

2. Being the "Thought Police" is a very tenuous position to hold.  Racism exists, in many forms, across many cultures and countries, of that there is no question.  But trying to lump who or what someone is under the racism (or any other ism) umbrella just because of who/what they are can be an equally distasteful generalization as well.

If a man only dates women, does this make him homophobic?

If a white woman only dates black men, does this make her racist?

If a black man only dates black women, does this make him racist?

If a white man only dates white women, does this make him racist?

If you take pride in who you are, does that make you racist?

I would venture to say that any group that is in some way exclusive is seen as a threat and a bad thing, regardless of why it is exclusive in the first place.  Perhaps it would be wise to ask yourself WHY you might feel threatened by others, especially if those others have not actually done anything, other than exist?

There is a HUGE difference between saying you are proud that you are white and going around calling others nasty names just because they are not. 

There is a HUGE difference between saying "this is my personal preference" and going around verbally attacking others because their preference is different.

There is a HUGE difference between saying "this is my personal fetish" and going around attacking or harassing others who have a different kink. 

With regards to the issue raised in the OP.  There is a HUGE difference between saying "this is who I am and I am using song lyrics to reflect that" and "this is who I am, and I am going to attack you because you are not the same".

Unless and until any person uses who and what they are as a reason to attack or harass anyone who isn't the same, leave them alone and let them be. 

You cannot control someone's actions, but you can control your own reaction. 

I'm sorry, Dakota, but this is the General Discussion Forum.  You're not allowed to be completely rational here, especially on a controversial topic.  Kindly stop or I'll be forced to report you 😛

[Rhun DeCuir]

25 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I'm sorry, Dakota, but this is the General Discussion Forum.  You're not allowed to be completely rational here, especially on a controversial topic.  Kindly stop or I'll be forced to report you 😛

Best not tease the Lindens.  They have formidable powers.  You could end up in the Cornfield. (It's a good thing, Anthony.)

[Tolya Ugajin]

9 minutes ago, Rhun DeCuir said:

Best not tease the Lindens.  They have formidable powers.  You could end up in the Cornfield. (It's a good thing, Anthony.)

Pffft if I had any sense I'd decommission Tolya altogether.  Other than a bit of non-transferrable art I occasionally rez, his sole remaining utility is the Forum, and it's highly debatable as to whether that is a of positive or negative net value.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

 

3 hours ago, Dano Seale said:

Wouldn't work over the engine noise and my building blood pressure as I look at my watch!  Don't see why I would have to really. They could just protest in the normal way without causing more anger by stopping people getting to or carrying out their work! But yeah, probably the accepted option I guess.

Methinks you need a different job, possibly a less stressful one? 

[Beth Macbain]

Removed - not feeding the sock-puppets tonight.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Beth Macbain
Something smells rotten.