Racism in player profiles

[Drake1 Nightfire]

5 hours ago, Kokoro Swansong said:

I m proud of my family, my country and my race. I can still love you, if you are not part of any of that. If i get disliked for that i wont hate you for not talking to me.

Only thing that is important to be is if you have a good character while talking to me, or if you are talking to be with mean words. I was called every bad name in the bood allready. do ppl think that makes me like them or thing good about them?

[Gatogateau]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

KITTENS must die?

KITTENS?

I swear it was a mistake coming in here and posting just now. I didn't know!

:::scurries off to a teeny little hiding spot, with only my tail showing so no one knows I'm there:::

[Beth Macbain]

59 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

KITTENS must die?

KITTENS?

He had it backwards. Every time a necropost is resurrected, a kitten in a shelter finds their new safe and loving furrever home. 

[Maitimo]

2 hours ago, Gatogateau said:

I read through the first page, and no doubt will just be repeating what others have said, but wth:

If you feel like ARing it, then AR it. You drop it into the void and you never know what happens anyway, unless you go back and see their profile has changed, and even then, maybe they just changed it themselves in some fit of epiphany. As long as you aren't abusing AR, by reporting everyone for everything, then I say: Follow your conscience. Just don't get caught up in the result because most ARs don't result in any action as far as I can see.

I agree with others that while the intent is pretty clear, the wording is if-y as far as is it against TOS. Again, no harm in putting in an AR.

There is the school of thought that sometimes those kinds of profiles are rather PSAs of who to stay away from in SL. If you had read the profile first, you wouldn't have purchased anything from them, so there is that. I'm kind of ambivalent on that, and can see it both ways. It sort of depends on how heinous it is, and I've seen a few that required eyebleach application after reading. (And I ARd and I have no idea what happened because I didn't follow that person's profile.)

As to deleting the purchase, I'm not sure. I've already paid the money, the damage is done. I guess it would depend upon what it is and how visible and how likely people are to click on it because they love it and want to buy one too. Years ago there was a singer I liked a lot. Had all of his music. Then he publicly went awful, and stated things I thought were beyond the pale. Even though they were some of my favorites, I destroyed the albums and never listened to his music again. I am not sure if that was the only time I ever did something like that or not, but it is the one that made the most lasting memory.

ETA: Sigh. I just noticed this was necroposted from 2018. gfdi

Haha yes, it was a long time ago. Water under the bridge now. It turns out that the text was a song lyric, which I didn't recognise because I don't listen to songs like that.

I did, in the end, both submit an AR and also deleted the product I bought from them.  I don't know whether a result of the AR or not, but the offending text is gone from the person's profile. I certainly would not have purchased the thing had I seen the profile first, but I did, and it wasn't so expensive that deleting it caused me any worry.

Some good came of it in the end, I started creating stuff for myself as a result, and I've slowly started filling my little store and I've earned much more money in sales than I spent on that one thing. 

[Maryanne Solo]

Welcome to the creator fold Maitimo!  
We can learn so much relevant techie stuff from SL.

I read this thread for the first time and someone help me here, 
Would a creator expressing those views, (even as song words), make something I would be interested in buying?
I keep coming up with a big no.
Not quite sure how others could see any differently.
 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Maryanne Solo said:

Welcome to the creator fold Maitimo!  
We can learn so much relevant techie stuff from SL.

I read this thread for the first time and someone help me here, 
Would a creator expressing those views, (even as song words), make something I would be interested in buying?
I keep coming up with a big no.
Not quite sure how others could see any differently.
 

 

I dont look at a creators profile before seeing their products. Thats kind of backwards. You see the products in the store/mp before you know who makes it. Why should song lyrics on a profile change the product? Do you research every company you buy from before making a purchase?

[kiramanell]

On 5/21/2018 at 12:57 PM, Callum Meriman said:

Their exact words on https://www.lindenlab.com/tos are:

I really don't think his admission of racism falls into this.

Americans are weird at the best of times, on guns and free speech even more.

 

 

Excuse me?! You don't think admitting to being an effing racist is 'racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable'?! 

Sure, Americans may be weird; but this weirder!

[kiramanell]

On 5/22/2018 at 1:37 PM, Kyrah Abattoir said:

From my point of view, I don't think the behavior and beliefs of "Kyrah the Resident" should impact "Kyrah the Content creator".

Who people are and how they behave outside of a "professional" setting shouldn't have any incidence on one's purchase, I'm paying for a product and for the support that comes with that product. Why whould I try to hurt someone for something unrelated to our transaction?

I'm also not paying to steer this person's belief in allignment with my own, I'm just trying to reward quality work.

 

After WO II, there have been a number of discussons (and Court cases, even) determining whether scientists should be allowed to use the work (statistical data and such) of say, Josef Mengele, for their own research.

My view on that has always been abundantly clear: if you're a self-professed racist, or Nazi-admirer even, then I want nothing to do with you, nor with any of your derivatives (like products you create). Not going to enable such a person in any way whatsoever. You could make a cute, high-quality avi, with sunbeams coming out of her frikkin' ass, and I'm still going to ditch her, the moment I find out.

[Paul Hexem]

50 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Excuse me?! You don't think admitting to being an effing racist is 'racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable'?! 

Sure, Americans may be weird; but this weirder!

No. Even if it weren't just a song;

Saying something racist and admitting to being called racist are very different things.

Especially in today's world where people throw words like that around over nothing.

[kiramanell]

6 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

No. Even if it weren't just a song;

Saying something racist and admitting to being called racist are very different things.

 

That's just a wordgame. It's what 12-year-olds do. Like "I didn't say you were an a$$hole, I only said you looked like an a$$hole." In the real world, you simply are what you proudly associate yourself with:

"They call me nazi, and I'm proud about it"

Having a song like that in your Profile is 'racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable,' whatever word games ppl like to play. 

Also, everything is AR-able. Whether LL does something with it, is another thing, of course. And I would certainly AR it.

[Paul Hexem]

13 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

Also, everything is AR-able. Whether LL does something with it, is another thing, of course. And I would certainly AR it.

Nothing like cluttering the system so actual, real issues take longer to get solved. Good job. 

[Amina Sopwith]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Nothing like cluttering the system so actual, real issues take longer to get solved. Good job. 

Resolving racism is a perfectly legitimate use of the AR system and very much a real issue. 

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Resolving racism is a perfectly legitimate use of the AR system and very much a real issue. 

In the case of actual racism, sure. This isn't.

[Amina Sopwith]

5 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

In the case of actual racism, sure. This isn't.

I would disagree. LL can make the final call for these purposes.

[Ceka Cianci]

There is an easy answer to this..

If someone feels it is, then do something about it.. If someone doesn't feel it is, then don't do anything..

Arguing over if it is or isn't, won't get the laundry done..

 

It's a pretty old thread.. I'm sure if it was AR'd, it was back then..If it's still there then it either got missed or wasn't something ARable..

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

I only read the first few pages as well but I'll put my opinion here.

First, I don't there is a law against telling people you are racist as long as you don't act on it.  Bad taste? Probably...but they can't arrest you. Now if you make a group that says "only black people allowed" or "white people unite" that might be a violation.  I tend to not worry how people act and make sure that I am acting right.

As far as deleting something I bought from someone like that?  I would not delete it.  Half my inventory is more than likely made by someone I wouldn't associate with.   I wouldn't be buying anything, seeing any movies, buying food ect.  I still listen to Michael Jackson's music even though he had done some questionable things in his life.

[Kathlen Onyx]

9 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

It's a pretty old thread.. I'm sure if it was AR'd, it was back then..If it's still there then it either got missed or wasn't something ARable..

True, but If someone has an opinion on a particular thread I think it should be ok to put yours in.  Other threads of course aren't appropriate to resurrect but I think this one is ok.  It's interesting to read if the opinions changed over time or stayed relatively the same.

[Ceka Cianci]

On 6/12/2018 at 9:49 AM, Dakota Linden said:

Greetings all!

1. Profanity is NOT appropriate on the forums. Trying to get around that policy by masking the words with *** or any other similar alterations doesn't change the fact that you ARE posting a profanity.  I have edited the posts that contained the profanity in order to preserve the conversation.  If you do it again, I will have no choice but to start handing out warnings or suspensions. 

2. Being the "Thought Police" is a very tenuous position to hold.  Racism exists, in many forms, across many cultures and countries, of that there is no question.  But trying to lump who or what someone is under the racism (or any other ism) umbrella just because of who/what they are can be an equally distasteful generalization as well.

If a man only dates women, does this make him homophobic?

If a white woman only dates black men, does this make her racist?

If a black man only dates black women, does this make him racist?

If a white man only dates white women, does this make him racist?

If you take pride in who you are, does that make you racist?

I would venture to say that any group that is in some way exclusive is seen as a threat and a bad thing, regardless of why it is exclusive in the first place.  Perhaps it would be wise to ask yourself WHY you might feel threatened by others, especially if those others have not actually done anything, other than exist?

There is a HUGE difference between saying you are proud that you are white and going around calling others nasty names just because they are not. 

There is a HUGE difference between saying "this is my personal preference" and going around verbally attacking others because their preference is different.

There is a HUGE difference between saying "this is my personal fetish" and going around attacking or harassing others who have a different kink. 

With regards to the issue raised in the OP.  There is a HUGE difference between saying "this is who I am and I am using song lyrics to reflect that" and "this is who I am, and I am going to attack you because you are not the same".

Unless and until any person uses who and what they are as a reason to attack or harass anyone who isn't the same, leave them alone and let them be. 

You cannot control someone's actions, but you can control your own reaction. 

I quoted this, because a Linden did respond to this thread back then..

It's on page 5..

 

ETA:Wrong quote..I haven't read that one yet..I'll grab the first one that showed up that I mean to quote and put it in a new post since I have no idea how to copy and paste them so all the information like dates and times and names show up....hehehe

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ceka Cianci

[Ceka Cianci]

On 6/5/2018 at 9:38 AM, Dakota Linden said:

Greetings all!

Anytime someone feels that content in Second Life, including profiles, text, items, Marketplace Listings, etc., violates the Terms of Service or Terms of Use, please feel free to file an Abuse Report.  Even if you are not 100%, file it anyway. 

I removed the link to the video of the song/band.  The lyrics in the video DO contain offensive content by referring to others with derogatory terms. 

As to the actual lyrics posted in the user profile, they would most likely not be removed.  The lyrics are first person (referring to the person who posted them), using language, that while distasteful to some/many, is not done in derogatory terms. 

With regards to deleting content that you purchased from someone who holds beliefs counter to yours, it is entirely a personal choice.  If the item is transfer enabled, you could try asking for a refund without bringing up the sellers personal beliefs (no need to inflame the issue, or argue opinions), just saying that you bought the item and it does not fit with your theme, style, whatever.  This way you could try to get your L$ back from them so that you do not let them profit. 

If the item is No Transfer, your only option is to delete the item if you do not wish to keep it.

 

This was the one that I meant to grab..hehehe

[kiramanell]

4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I dont look at a creators profile before seeing their products. Thats kind of backwards. You see the products in the store/mp before you know who makes it. Why should song lyrics on a profile change the product? Do you research every company you buy from before making a purchase?

 

True, I don't always look upfront. But should I find out, afterwards, we're done.

Example: Ever since I found out Woody Allen is a perv, and the things he did with his daughter (and adopted one), I resolved to not wanting to buy any of his films any more. I wasn't so delusional as to think he'd lose any income over it, but, for myself, I simply wanted nothing to do with that man any more, nor enable him any further (by buying his products).

Same in SL. Even when the Law may say he's not a racist, or a Linden finds a clever way of wording things, so they won't have to take any action, for me, when I see something like that in someone's Profile, it's game over, and I will never buy any of their stuff any more. Ever.

[Dano Seale]

22 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

2. Being the "Thought Police" is a very tenuous position to hold.  Racism exists, in many forms, across many cultures and countries, of that there is no question.  But trying to lump who or what someone is under the racism (or any other ism) umbrella just because of who/what they are can be an equally distasteful generalization as well.

This^^
And, "freedom of speech"?....It's just a myth! It's something that cannot exist without a 50/50 balance and the moment someone disagrees with what someone else has said, that balance usually tips to 90/10. That isn't "freedom" of anything!
 

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Dano Seale said:

And, "freedom of speech"?....It's just a myth! It's something that cannot exist without a 50/50 balance and the moment someone disagrees with what someone else has said, that balance usually tips to 90/10. That isn't "freedom" of anything!
 

The whole "Freedom of Speech" thing is not what many think it is.  The Constitutional clause simply dictates what our government can and cannot do.  It has very little bearing on what a private company can do.

[Amina Sopwith]

Note from the artist: "I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express."

ETA: It's xkcd, obviously. 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Amina Sopwith
Typoo. Oops, and to censor - sorry.

[Beth Macbain]

I actually do try to be a fairly aware consumer in RL and SL. If I'm considering a purchase from someone new in SL I try to look at their profile - especially if it's a larger purchase. No, not all creators are going to put their political views on their profiles, and I certainly don't send them a message to ask, but if some ding-a-ling proudly displays his Nazism (or Trumpism) on his profile through song lyrics or his own words, then no - he doesn't get my money. 

And if I had already bought something and then discovered that the creator's personal belief system was the antithesis of my own, I'd absolutely delete it. Anytime I used that product, I would remember that I bought something from a Nazi. It's a loss of lindens for me, but... meh. I can live with that. I'd rather not be faced with the fact that I did something that helped fund a Nazi.

I was in need of a new dentist a few months ago. There is one with an office in my neighborhood. He parks his car out front with a banner hanging on it that says something about his support for Trump. Now instead of going to the dude in my neighborhood, I drive a couple miles away to a dentist who isn't a moron who alienates at least half of his potential new patients. 

He exercised his 1st amendment, and I exercised mine. 

[Drakonadrgora Darkfold]

Technically i dont think it breaks the tos so ar'ing it probably wont do anything at all.