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Matty Luminos

Racism in player profiles

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6 hours ago, ThorinII said:

I do care. In my opinion, the product can be absolutely perfect to my liking or "needs" - but if the creator is a racist arsehole, I either don't buy their products at all, or delete the item and shrug the L$ off.

And that's totally fine, it's your money after all. I'm just responding to Matty's question. Deleting something you've alreay paid for doesn't hurt the creator in any way either.

7 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

So ? ... the fact someone would put it in their profile speaks volumes.

Abuse report.

That comment was just as an aside, I think it's probably AR-able, but I can totally see the user deliberately having it there just because of the reactions it creates so they can troll you harder.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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On 21/5/2018 at 10:10 AM, Matty Luminos said:

“... if you bought something from a player and then later discovered that they had something like this in their profile, would you delete what you bought from them?...”

As just a gesture, no.

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2 hours ago, ThorinII said:

I do care. In my opinion, the product can be absolutely perfect to my liking or "needs" - but if the creator is a racist arsehole, I either don't buy their products at all, or delete the item and shrug the L$ off.

From my point of view, I don't think the behavior and beliefs of "Kyrah the Resident" should impact "Kyrah the Content creator".

Who people are and how they behave outside of a "professional" setting shouldn't have any incidence on one's purchase, I'm paying for a product and for the support that comes with that product. Why whould I try to hurt someone for something unrelated to our transaction?

I'm also not paying to steer this person's belief in allignment with my own, I'm just trying to reward quality work.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir

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On 5/21/2018 at 3:10 AM, Matty Luminos said:

This is a two-fold question, inspired by the profile of a player I came across a couple of days ago.  Without naming the player, here's what he wrote in his profile...

So I have a couple of questions. First, is this worthy of an AR?

Second, if you bought something from a player and then later discovered that they had something like this in their profile, would you delete what you bought from them? I just did exactly that, can't tell if over-reacting or not. But that kind of attitude makes me ... want to write words that would not be allowed here. 

1. Maybe it's worth of an AR, but I wouldn't go out of my way to do it. It just sounds sort of trollish -- but in a passive kind of way. They aren't actively trolling a sim. YOU have to click their profile to even see it. 

2. I wouldn't delete it. This is a virtual world/game. There are people of all sorts here, some who like to troll.Would I buy from in the future? Probably not. They'd have to have really amazing quality stuff for me to go out of my way to buy from them again. But I wouldn't delete my little pixel merch just because they have a trollish profile. 

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On 5/21/2018 at 3:57 AM, Callum Meriman said:

Their exact words on https://www.lindenlab.com/tos are:

I really don't think his admission of racism falls into this.

Americans are weird at the best of times, on guns and free speech even more.

 

This.

In the U.S. (which is where LL is and, presumably this person is) the First Amendment to the Constitution affords the Freedom of Speech. That also means as much as we dislike what other's say or are offended by it is when that amendment comes into full force. 

I generally take the side of most people here in denouncing all this. However, let us also be realists here:

  • There is no actual racism being expressed unless you insert it by innuendo
  • Proclaiming to be part of a group only indicates your support of that groups ideals, whether you share them or not
  • Calling together one particular ethnic group is not attacking another

And furthermore, it appears to be some kind of poem. I'm not making excuses or intending to defend this person, I am saying that in the U.S. what this person plops into their profile is protected speech (in the United Staes, at least) and is likely intended to get very discussions, such as this one, rolling (Well, actually intended to offend, but there is no TOS or other laws in any respectable country that give you the "freedom from being offended").

In short, this person appears to just be a troll.

As for deleting what I purchased? That's is context-based - what it actually is and such, though would likely never buy from them again. Here's an example: Have you ever owned anything created by IBM, ever? Did you know they produced the machines that helped the Nazi's manage their extermination efforts during the Holocaust? Just saying, folks.

Edited by Alyona Su
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1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Here's an example: Have you ever owned anything created by IBM, ever? Did you know they produced the machines that helped the Nazi's manage their extermination efforts during the Holocaust? Just saying, folks.

I have to comment on that. I just have to :)

If IBM produced machines for the nazis, knowing that they would be used to assist the extermination of people, then you would have a very good point. But I don't believe for one second, or even for a fraction of a second, that that's what happened, so I have no qualms about owning stuff produced by IBM. I can't even imagine that IBM produced anything for the nazis, but rather that the nazis bought some IBM stuff, just like other businesses did back then. So I don't see that the point you made is any point at all.

You could equally say that such-and-such company produced the computers that were used by whoever to cyber-attack whatever, and question whether or not any of us should be using computers made by that company. It's just as outlandish a thought.

In the case of the profile, I agree with those who suggest that it's just a statement about the person himself and, as such, is just free speech. If it were a call to action, it would be different, of course, but it doesn't appear to be that, however distasteful it is.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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8 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I have to comment on that. I just have to :)

If IBM produced machines for the nazis, knowing that they would be used to assist the extermination of people, then you would have a very good point. But I don't believe for one second, or even for a fraction of a second, that that's what happened, so I have no qualms about owning stuff produced by IBM. I can't even imagine that IBM produced anything for the nazis, but rather that the nazis bought some IBM stuff, just like other businesses did back then. So I don't see that the point you made is any point at all.

It was just an example and you make my point (and mainframe punch machines were built to order. hey: Discovery Channel can be your friend LOL):  do you look at the profile of every creator you purchase from? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, just saying that people who buy this person's stuff don't know any better for worse or wear. :D

Edited by Alyona Su

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Looking at profiles of those I buy from would be a bit difficult for me, because I don't buy anything in SL :)

But no, checking behind the scenes to see what sort of person the seller is isn't something that we normally do. We'd only take such things into account when the person's character is in plain sight, and profiles aren't exactly in plain sight, even though they are public.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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With regard to the Free Speech portion of Alyona Su's post: The body of the First Amendment reads as follows

Quote

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The Amendment pertains solely to the Government - a business or online service is quite free to refuse to do business with you or to terminate your account over what you say/type/transmit through their service.

Linden Lab has terminated/banned users over the content of their profiles and even forum posts in the past and guess what? They're allowed to do so.

That said, they generally only take action for far more blatantly hateful speech/text or after issuing a warning or three. Their tolerance is - for better or worse - fairly high.

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It has been a fascinating threadette ( less than 100 has to be an ette. Possibly an orina).

Backgound. When I was a Kitten our neighbours expressed surprise that we were not 'Pakis' as my Mum made a curry of a Tuesday. No big thing except where I was born 'Paki Bashing' was a thing after football. Made me think.

Later Mum ran me through the 'rivers of blood' speech. Asked what I thought. Answered. Not bad for a Boots the Chemist counter girl.

Similar changes of heart happened to my dad - nuff said now happily in Thailand as it was the place of his dreams during NS*.

So as a Brit I look upon this from  a US expressed point of view as - juvenile.

Now back in the day as a Rude Boy I ran and kicked against the NF but - scars stay, muscles go. Attitude does not change.

*NS National Service Yes I am that old.

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There's no need to give this much thought. AR whatever you feel is racist and Linden Lab makes the ultimate decision, as they should.

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3 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

With regard to the Free Speech portion of Alyona Su's post: The body of the First Amendment reads as follows

The Amendment pertains solely to the Government - a business or online service is quite free to refuse to do business with you or to terminate your account over what you say/type/transmit through their service.

Linden Lab has terminated/banned users over the content of their profiles and even forum posts in the past and guess what? They're allowed to do so.

That said, they generally only take action for far more blatantly hateful speech/text or after issuing a warning or three. Their tolerance is - for better or worse - fairly high.

This is very true. Though the Supreme Court has also determined "freedom of association" to be part of the First Amendment (Boys Scouts vs LGBT (paraphrased)).

Taking this into consideration, the first part of the "racist" statement says this person has been "called" these things and takes pride in being called such, but doesn't go as far as to proclaim they are actually that, the end part of the statement falls under this aspect of the first amendment. But now we are just splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs. To which I think the following applies:

46 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

There's no need to give this much thought. AR whatever you feel is racist and Linden Lab makes the ultimate decision, as they should.

You go, girl! SHOOT 'EM ALL AND LET LL SORT 'EM OUT! Hahahaha

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On 5/21/2018 at 9:10 AM, Matty Luminos said:

First, is this worthy of an AR?

Yes, I would AR it.  It's up to LL whether they think it's against ToS and, if it is, what they do about it, but they won't make that determination one way or another unless someone brings the profile to their attention.

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If you dont like what someone has on their profile just  dont read it,  if it offends you go hide in a box.  Just maybe they dont like whats on your profile either.   In other words mind your own business.

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In my honest opinion,I wouldn't AR it..I'd let them keep on showing who they are..

ARing them and it getting taken down,puts them under the radar to anyone else that comes along in the future that opens their profile..

Trust me when I say,and this is from experience..It's a better thing to know who and where they are, than it is to wonder who and where they are.

 

ARing it and them having to take it down, removes them from the court of public opinion..

For example,say you are trying to warn someone or a group of people from doing business  with someone like that..All you have to do to back up what you say is,tell them to check out their profile..

Their own words will be stronger than yours.

Just my 2 cents..

 

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9 hours ago, Avery7xp said:

If you dont like what someone has on their profile just  dont read it,  if it offends you go hide in a box.  Just maybe they dont like whats on your profile either.   In other words mind your own business.

You could say exactly the same thing about posting in forum threads.

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11 hours ago, Avery7xp said:

If you dont like what someone has on their profile just  dont read it,  if it offends you go hide in a box.  Just maybe they dont like whats on your profile either.   In other words mind your own business.

Na, with your freedom to say whatever you like comes the unseperable obligation to live with the consequences of your words, interesting idea isn't it?

Edited by Fionalein
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13 hours ago, Avery7xp said:

If you dont like what someone has on their profile just  dont read it

Tis a tad difficult to know if I like what's in their profile or not without reading it first.

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On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 8:40 AM, sirhc DeSantis said:

It has been a fascinating threadette ( less than 100 has to be an ette. Possibly an orina).

Backgound. When I was a Kitten our neighbours expressed surprise that we were not 'Pakis' as my Mum made a curry of a Tuesday. No big thing except where I was born 'Paki Bashing' was a thing after football. Made me think.

Later Mum ran me through the 'rivers of blood' speech. Asked what I thought. Answered. Not bad for a Boots the Chemist counter girl.

Similar changes of heart happened to my dad - nuff said now happily in Thailand as it was the place of his dreams during NS*.

So as a Brit I look upon this from  a US expressed point of view as - juvenile.

Now back in the day as a Rude Boy I ran and kicked against the NF but - scars stay, muscles go. Attitude does not change.

*NS National Service Yes I am that old.

Thanks. Liked that. I had to Google the "rivers of blood" speech. Ugly (not that the Civil Rights Movement here didn't spawn worse ugliness).

I like your mom, too. :-)

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   If I'm meeting someone, face to face, for the first time, I don't usually read profiles immediately. I'll engage in a little conversation first, sort of get to know someone just through the words they'll share with me. After a while, if I remember to, I'll look over their profile. I have found that I can enjoy whatever humor may be there a little more if I have chatted with them beforehand.

   I think I do this because I like comparing the first, live look with what's in the history. If I find racism, I do what I do when I find one of my loaves of bread has gone moldy; throw it away, with perhaps a quick "Well..... that was fast.", and forget about it. Misogyny and other, overt forms of persecution will pretty much bring about the same result.

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On 5/21/2018 at 4:10 AM, Matty Luminos said:

This is a two-fold question, inspired by the profile of a player I came across a couple of days ago.  Without naming the player, here's what he wrote in his profile...

So I have a couple of questions. First, is this worthy of an AR?

Second, if you bought something from a player and then later discovered that they had something like this in their profile, would you delete what you bought from them? I just did exactly that, can't tell if over-reacting or not. But that kind of attitude makes me ... want to write words that would not be allowed here. 

 

On 5/21/2018 at 4:10 AM, Matty Luminos said:

They call me nazi, and I'm proud about it
they call me racist, and I shout it out loud
I'm proud of my race, I'm proud of my land
white brothers and sisters
come and raise your hand

its a quote from a song.. No worse than quoting some gang bangers lyrics about shooting cops.. 

Edited by Dakota Linden
Moderator - Link to offensive video removed
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7 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

its a quote from a song.. No worse than quoting some gang bangers lyrics about shooting cops.. 

I repeat myself... The song is by a band that was declared a criminal organisation in Germany, guess for what - yeah their songs...

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