Racism in player profiles

[Maitimo]

This is a two-fold question, inspired by the profile of a player I came across a couple of days ago.  Without naming the player, here's what he wrote in his profile...

Quote

They call me nazi, and I'm proud about it
they call me racist, and I shout it out loud
I'm proud of my race, I'm proud of my land
white brothers and sisters
come and raise your hand

So I have a couple of questions. First, is this worthy of an AR?

Second, if you bought something from a player and then later discovered that they had something like this in their profile, would you delete what you bought from them? I just did exactly that, can't tell if over-reacting or not. But that kind of attitude makes me ... want to write words that would not be allowed here. 

[Caroline Takeda]

Matty,

My first reaction would be a report to Linden Lab. It is clearly against the TOS.

My second thought? Well, lets create black avatars and stalked that idiot. Might be fun even.
 

[Maitimo]

Thanks Caroline. I pretty much thought so (about an AR) anyway, and did so even before you replied.

 

[Fionalein]

Deleting it might be an overreaction, but I know I could not look at it without being reminded about the creator. So maybe your (over)reaction wasn't so weird at all.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Fionalein

[Maitimo]

I am glad I deleted it to be honest. I wasted a few L$ (about a pound's worth) but it inspired me to make my own - and that inspired me to start a marketplace store - so it's all worked out for the greater good in the end.

If you're smart you'll probably be able to figure out who that original racist profile belongs to. 

[sirhc DeSantis]

I'm not sure if it does contravene TOS (or is actionable) going just by that snippet Sticks in my craw to say it though but on that alone an AR would probably not stick.

On the deletion part - yes I have after belatedly reading a profile. It means if I am about to buy from someone I do not have a good idea about already I always check. I do the same before chat/contacting too.

[Callum Meriman]

1 minute ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

I'm not sure if it does contravene TOS (or is actionable) going just by that snippet Sticks in my craw to say it though but on that alone an AR would probably not stick.

I'd have to agree. Free speech can be distasteful sometimes, but this case I don't see him pushing those views to the point they cross the TOS line. Until then he is entitled to hold them, and we are entitled to laugh at his stupidity. When he crosses the line, we are also entitled to uphold the TOS.

Would I delete something I'd bought from them? Yes. 

[Fionalein]

13 minutes ago, sirhc DeSantis said:

I'm not sure if it does contravene TOS (or is actionable) going just by that snippet Sticks in my craw to say it though but on that alone an AR would probably not stick.

On the deletion part - yes I have after belatedly reading a profile. It means if I am about to buy from someone I do not have a good idea about already I always check. I do the same before chat/contacting too.

Yes, but the TOS explitly say they do not want racism or any discrimination. And if you identify yourself with "F* yeah I belong to that group known to be racists and I'm proud of it"  I would not be to surprised if that was outside the TOS.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Fionalein

[Zeta Vandyke]

I think the whole "They call me" and not "I am a" puts him in the save zone. Hes not saying he is, but that he is being called.

[Fionalein]

5 hours ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

I think the whole "They call me" and not "I am a" puts him in the save zone. Hes not saying he is, but that he is being called.

The sentence consists of parts, even Murican Logics should not help him on the "and I'm proud of it" part... if someone is proud of making people call him a Nazi he is most likely one, or a troll which disturbs the public peace and is handled by another paragraph of the TOS...

Edited May 21, 2018 by Fionalein

[Callum Meriman]

25 minutes ago, Fionalein said:

Yes, but the TOS explitly say they do not want racism or any discrimination. And if you identify yourself with "F* yeah I belong to that group known to be racists and I'm proud of it"  I would not be to surprised if that was outside the TOS.

Their exact words on https://www.lindenlab.com/tos are:

Quote

(v) Post, display, or transmit Content that is obscene, hateful, involves terrorism, or is racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable; or

I really don't think his admission of racism falls into this.

Americans are weird at the best of times, on guns and free speech even more.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

Americans are weird at the best of times, on guns and free speech even more.

Who you callin’ weird??

[Syo Emerald]

3 hours ago, Fionalein said:

Yes, but the TOS explitly say they do not want racism or any discrimination. And if you identify yourself with "F* yeah I belong to that group known to be racists and I'm proud of it"  I would not be to surprised if that was outside the TOS.

Thats kind of a stretch here.

The ToS is mostly directed towards "active" forms of discrimination and racism, like acting in a discriminative way towards someone or making racist statements or insults. This quoted profile text however is none of that. Although its very likely that the person who wrote it acts in ToS-breaking ways on other occaisons, that text alone is not making the kind of statement the ToS is aiming at. Being proud of ones race (as idiotic as it is) isn't qualifying for racism/discrimination and the rest of the text is not even clearly stating that he _is_ what others claim he his (yes, it gives a good idea about his mindeset, but an idea is not enough for a ToS violation).

Its in essence the same as stating that you are a strong follower of religious group X. The thinking person knows, that this group of people hates everyone who is not a believer and a whole bunch of people, who live lifestyles they consider sinful and wrong. You do know, there is a good chance this person will hold discriminative views and act like it, but thats it.

 

Of course, one can always try it and write an AR, but I feel like there is only a very slim chance this will be acted upon.

[Madelaine McMasters]

I'm ambivalent about ARing the profile. I hold the (possibly ill-reasoned) belief that flying such flags of ignorance here is ultimately self destructive.

I would however, delete anything I'd purchased from someone like that, both on ethical grounds and with the faint hope that I'd saved myself from discovering that the creator was equally ignorant of good SL construction techniques.

[bebejee]

Delete all you want, they already got your money and are laughing on their way to the bank.

[Teagan Tobias]

Matty said: First, is this worthy of an AR?

 

I'm over ten years old and have never filed an AR so I don't really know much about them. But my thoughts are, yes definitely file one, if nothing else it is now on file. If in the future some other offense is AR'ed this will add to the fire. I don't know but I would assume LL keeps AR's for at least some period of time.

Would I delete the object, for me that would depend on how much I paid for it, if I paid a lot then no, it is was less then 25L then maybe.

Maybe a carefully worded 2 or three star review could make you feel better. (if you bought it on the Marketplace.)

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, bebejee said:

Delete all you want, they already got your money and are laughing on their way to the bank.

seems you somewhere miss the point... it's not about money but having a item thats muddy and dirty

[sirhc DeSantis]

@Fionalein

My response, as I stated, was based on the snippet (a small part) of a profile that was posted and as such had to be mediated by not having seen the rest of it (and frankly not wishing to waste any time trying to find which particular stain on humanity it might be). There are in place rules that do apply to this subject, granted, which I would have no hesitation over.

And I am a Brit (mostly*) so not sure what your point of 'Murican logics' might be.

As for bebejee's point on already having my money well yes - once bitten, twice driven to check first, saving myself from accidentally passing on any more to people of this ilk.

[ * as Feline leaning isn't yet recognised as a nationality - but come the glorious day ]

[Amanda Crisp]

Unwise Opinions = not someone I would hang around with.

Racially Hostile *Actions* = AR

The difficult thing about dealing with intolerant people is that when oppositions gets carried to an extreme, the activist becomes the very thing they oppose.

Edited May 21, 2018 by AmandaKeen

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, AmandaKeen said:

The difficult thing about dealing with intolerant people is that when oppositions gets carried to an extreme, the activist becomes the very thing they oppose.

The Voltairean principle as formulated by Evelyn Beatrice Hall:

Quote

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

If the product is good, I don't care what the creator is like.

That profile sounds like a meme though. 

[Amanda Crisp]

Someday, the conversation about Race in Second Life will be “was Speed better animated or in Live Action?”

Hopefully someday, only this Race(r) will be provoking conversation :-)

We gots work to do first though.

[Fionalein]

11 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That profile sounds like a meme though. 

A quick internet search revealed: 

It is a fragment of a songtext by Neonazi band Landser - a band considered a criminal organisation in Germany. According to German laws even posting this fragment could be considered a crime... (the profile owner isn't by chance German, is he?)

Edited May 22, 2018 by Fionalein

[Coffee Pancake]

29 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That profile sounds like a meme though. 

So ? ... the fact someone would put it in their profile speaks volumes.

Abuse report.

[ThorinII]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

If the product is good, I don't care what the creator is like.

I do care. In my opinion, the product can be absolutely perfect to my liking or "needs" - but if the creator is a racist arsehole, I either don't buy their products at all, or delete the item and shrug the L$ off.

Edited May 22, 2018 by ThorinII