Flickering issue around edge of body

[AyelaNewLife]

A picture speaks a thousand words; links to spare anyone on mobile:

Example

Full picture

While this isn't what I'd consider a final cut, it is still with the quality settings up to max, on Ultra, 16x AA, Life-like resolution, you know the drill. While there is a little roughness at every edge of my body, it is much more noticeable when against a backdrop of the sky or water. Any idea why this is happening or how to remove/minimise it?

[loverdag]

I beleive this happen always when two transparet (alpha) layers meet - one is around your body (for tattoos and other appliers), other is trasparent layer in the wave behind you. All inworld objects with alpha textures will make same ugly effect, the most common are plants, grass - together with our mesh bodies, hair, maitreya trasparent nail layer etc etc.

When one aplha meets other, ugliness happen  ....

Speaking about Firestorm solution is to avoid those situations, not to use background like this (means to chose another camera angle or to derender the object(s) behind you etc).

Maybe Black Dragon works in that case better than Firestorm, but I can't confirm that, because I don't have it installed ATM, so I can't test it. I just recall it has optional DOF for alpha layers and it can be very useful when you are about to "hide" this problem.

 

[AyelaNewLife]

Thanks for your reply.

That makes sense. I'll have a look at Black Dragon (in the morning!), and see if that helps. Flicking through his blog, it looks like this viewer might have a few other features that would make photography easier and potentially more powerful.

It's a pain that something that simple causes these issues, but I guess we are talking about a graphics engine over a decade old.

[loverdag]

I wish to merge Firestorm and BD together, each of them has awesome tools and misses something (at least for me personaly) important. So far I stuck with Firestorm, because I use also Reshade and it works only with one viewer at time and to reinstall it every day is not option, I'm not enough determinated for that. Anyways BD was for me better for avatar's pictures - exactly because of the problem you pointed out - and Firestorm I prefer for landscape photography for it's other tools.

This I  took months ago with BD, with Firestorm would not be possible to make the glass and the alpha in my hair to look like that.

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Use a body without alpha layers maybe? Does the creator provide a with and without version?

[AyelaNewLife]

Potentially stupid question, but do injectors like reshade or ENB (not that there's a SL version) work well with the in-viewer snapshot render? If it sounds like I knew what I was talking about in that question, I honestly don't

It's a Slink, I doubt that they do, or if that would even be viable, but again I've only been here a matter of weeks.

[loverdag]

Thast not stupid question :) I know only Reshade and it doens't work with the viewer snapshots at all. I have to hide UI and to take classic screenshot (reshade itself takes them + from games I used to use Fraps).

(To make it more adventurous I use  cinematic HUD and I want it visible, so I have to hide other HUDs manually (not to use "hide  HUDs" in the viewer). Uncomfortable, but doable. When you don't mind the limitation of size and resolution - dependent on display resolution.

I don't mind, I will never print it in RL and for Flickr / blog its enough. I know its popular to work with HUGE files, because bigger is better .... but I'm not member in that club 

[AyelaNewLife]

Okay so plot twist: disabling the the omega-applied freckle layer fixes the problem! For my skin anyway, the hair is still awkward (Truth hair, if it matters). So if I can find a skin that comes freckled by default, that would solve the problem. No idea about the hair, but at least that is manageable, and often less noticeable than the skin outline was.

Edit with low-res screenshot to illustrate the problem; my left arm has the freckle layer enabled, the rest is base skin, below my right ear is a trouble spot for the hair:

Edited May 14, 2018 by AyelaNewLife

[Kyrah Abattoir]

So the issue is that the layer is actively textured hm. Interesting.

[AyelaNewLife]

Okay so plot twist number two: I am an actual idiot, and had applied the freckles to the underwear layer, not the tattoo layer. Moving the applier to the correct layer doesn't remove this, but does reduce it pretty significantly:

 

[loverdag]

Sometimes helps to click ont he hair with righ mouse. But I think it helps only with avatar's attachements (hair + clothing etc), not with objects rezzed inwold.

You said you have Slink body, i can confirm that Maitreya works same, when I turn off my scars (tattoo layer) the problem is not visible.

The second test you did thats about size of the transparent layer. They are 3 like the russion dolls (matryoshka dolls) -  the smalles, closes to the body is tattoo layer, little bigger is underwear layer and the biggest is clothing layer. Its why the tattoo layer makes the effect weaker. 

 

[AyelaNewLife]

What is the right click trick? Nothing noticeable happened when I tried it just now.

So as a more general question, if I were to take another shot like this one (this one is semi-nsfw, some of the others are very nsfw), how would I minimise the hair issue? (worse offender is right side of neck) I currently don't do any post production on my snaps, but if there's something relatively quick and easy that can at least make it less noticeable, I'd love to do so.

[loverdag]

Idk what you tested. My exaple was sheer clothing + hair - click on the hair and in the moment when I get viewer pie menu visible, the issue temporarily disappeared, so was possible to take picture with no "alpha issue".

 

[AyelaNewLife]

Ah I see; that's good to know, thanks! It sadly didn't work against the ocean or plants, as you said.

[Whirly Fizzle]

16 hours ago, loverdag said:

I wish to merge Firestorm and BD together, each of them has awesome tools and misses something (at least for me personaly) important. So far I stuck with Firestorm, because I use also Reshade and it works only with one viewer at time and to reinstall it every day is not option, I'm not enough determinated for that. Anyways BD was for me better for avatar's pictures - exactly because of the problem you pointed out - and Firestorm I prefer for landscape photography for it's other tools.

 

17 hours ago, loverdag said:

Maybe Black Dragon works in that case better than Firestorm, but I can't confirm that, because I don't have it installed ATM, so I can't test it. I just recall it has optional DOF for alpha layers and it can be very useful when you are about to "hide" this problem.

If you would like to see a certain feature from Black Dragon added to Firestorm, please file a new feature/improvement request on the Firestorm JIRA.

How to file a JIRA issue.

[loverdag]

On 15. 5. 2018 at 4:21 PM, Whirly Fizzle said:

 

If you would like to see a certain feature from Black Dragon added to Firestorm, please file a new feature/improvement request on the Firestorm JIRA.

How to file a JIRA issue.

Would be nice if someone with better english and better knowledge of SL viewers terminology make the request, I personaly lack both the skills and don't feel like to start the adventure.

[loverdag]

But I can at lest share screenshots from Black Dragon viewer to show what I was talkign about.

Raw screenshots (=no edit, no Reshade)

1/ NO DOF, we can see the "alpha&alpha issue" in its full glory

2/ "classic DOF" (same we have in Firestorm as well

3/ The optional DOF in BD

As I said earlier it doesn't solve the issue, but it helps to make it nicer. (And you can pretend it was "artistic intention").

But I would really recommend just to avoid those situations, not to use background like this. Derendering is very useful, if its not possible to take the picture on another spot.

And this is the magical check box in the BD machinima sidebar - "include alphas into depth".

[AyelaNewLife]

15 hours ago, loverdag said:

But I can at lest share screenshots from Black Dragon viewer to show what I was talkign about.

snip

As I said earlier it doesn't solve the issue, but it helps to make it nicer. (And you can pretend it was "artistic intention").

But I would really recommend just to avoid those situations, not to use background like this. Derendering is very useful, if its not possible to take the picture on another spot.

Hiya, thanks for the followup! I'd started to use Black Dragon, it takes a bit of getting used to, and is missing a few features that I'm really missing (I miss Firestorm's profile window!), but I like it overall. I've only toyed around with the poser (not used in the photo below), but that seems really powerful, even if only client-side for yourself.

And I think you're right, closeup shots in front of an alpha-heavy background aren't going to be too viable. Which is unfortunate, as I spend most of my time on a tropical beach! It's still a massive improvement over before, and less noticeable with most of my shots. This cropped shot is about a third of the width of the full shot (not linking here because nsfw pose, search my name - not username - on flickr if you're interested), and the only thing that really catches the eye are the stray hair strands on the male model, the edges of my hair aren't too noticeable. The original flickering issue with the body alpha layers is almost unnoticeable, even when I throw on another layer into that middle "underwear" slot.

So thanks for your help! It was greatly appreciated.

[AyelaNewLife]

One more post for anyone reading this and expecting it to work miracles: it won't:

[Fionalein]

One way would be to have a well done mesh body that could just strip those unneeded clothing/tattoo layers... woildn't fiy the hair of course...

Edited May 17, 2018 by Fionalein

[loverdag]

To turn off those layers is technical solution, but I'm affraid it doesn't solve much for ppl with some artistic intent - the appliers - tattoos, scars, blood and other appliers - are very often worn for the purpose of making pictures with them. 

But maybe it can work for at least for Ayela and others with similar focus - if the intent is to show the nsfw gymnastics  and the "body decor" is not so important. But thats still annoying I guess.

Edit - I don't think I wrote it as I wanted, so I will add this - always depends on the goal, the story what the picture should say. If the goal is to show erotisicsm, even with passion and emotions included, it doens't directly depend on tattoos and its perfectly doable with models with no tattoos (on artistic level as well). But some specific ideas aren't doable without appliers - they are one of the tools what many photographers use to reach their goals, the "stories" they wanted to tell.

Edited May 17, 2018 by loverdag

[AyelaNewLife]

5 hours ago, loverdag said:

To turn off those layers is technical solution, but I'm affraid it doesn't solve much for ppl with some artistic intent - the appliers - tattoos, scars, blood and other appliers - are very often worn for the purpose of making pictures with them. 

But maybe it can work for at least for Ayela and others with similar focus - if the intent is to show the nsfw gymnastics  and the "body decor" is not so important. But thats still annoying I guess.

Edit - I don't think I wrote it as I wanted, so I will add this - always depends on the goal, the story what the picture should say. If the goal is to show erotisicsm, even with passion and emotions included, it doens't directly depend on tattoos and its perfectly doable with models with no tattoos (on artistic level as well). But some specific ideas aren't doable without appliers - they are one of the tools what many photographers use to reach their goals, the "stories" they wanted to tell.

Indeed - but as with all art, it doesn't have to be connected to the message to have an impact. Take this example (the crop is safe for work, but it's pretty clear what is going on here  ). Stripping out the freckles and just having smooth skin there honestly subtracts from the visual impact of the piece, likewise with the male model's tattoos, although to a lesser extent. And yet in other pieces, including an unpublished one of the same pose from a different angle (telling a different story, with a different tone - just not a very good one), I could strip off the freckles and nothing would be lost.

Either way, it's another tool to be used in producing our art, and discarding that because the (admittedly 15-year old) engine doesn't handle something like this so well isn't really ideal.

[loverdag]

6 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Indeed - but as with all art, it doesn't have to be connected to the message to have an impact. Take this example (the crop is safe for work, but it's pretty clear what is going on here  ). Stripping out the freckles and just having smooth skin there honestly subtracts from the visual impact of the piece, likewise with the male model's tattoos, although to a lesser extent. And yet in other pieces, including an unpublished one of the same pose from a different angle (telling a different story, with a different tone - just not a very good one), I could strip off the freckles and nothing would be lost.

Either way, it's another tool to be used in producing our art, and discarding that because the (admittedly 15-year old) engine doesn't handle something like this so well isn't really ideal.

Call me "naive elf", but I originally didn't get whats exacly going on...   I saw it later on Flickr .....

And I agree, when I said "doable" I didn't meant it can't be touched by the issue - what we can do is - in the best case - to do compromises between what we want and what is possible. Same it would be if you would take more "control over the background" in your own hands by renting/bulding photo studio - today its easier than before, thanks to popularity of mesh backdrops. Not all of them are hard-to-get rare gachas or expensive and there are plenty to choose from. So its much easier to build/change scenes and to control what background you want. Idk if it still exist, but there was sim for photographers with many backdrops from different creators free to use, sorted to floors by themes - but it was not adult sim, so it wasn't for nsfw. Anyways it was good as "showroom" if you would want to see and chose what you like to buy for own studio. (I'm not big fun of backdrops and I don't use them often myself, but it depends on style, they can be pretty useful.) But again - it would be compromise, I'm aware you said you spend time on the beach, this would force you to change your "modus operandi".  Anyways if you would be interested and would not find the sim yourself, feel free to poke me via flickrmail, I beleive I have it bookmarked somewhere.