Potential for UUID ripping from system layers and consequent use with appliers

[Blush Bravin]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I see this fairly often and my question is: how do the people who say this know? Of course, now 100% of your customers use mesh bodies because you don't provide anything that's usable for someone who doesn't. I only use mesh bodies on some accounts but many of my purchases for the non-mesh accounts are for items that contain both appliers and system layers or standard size meshes and proprietary fitted meshes, either because they're the only things available that I can use or because I'm future-proofing. How do you as a merchant know which I'm using?

I don't know about other merchants, but I have a target audience. I can't create for everyone on the grid. I choose to create items that are targeted for users of the Maitreya Mesh body and the Slink mesh body. I don't have a large store, or a large inventory, or an unlimited amount of time to create for SL. So my products may not be meeting your needs but then there are many out there that I'm sure do. It's all a matter of choice. Isn't it?

Let me explain further. I actually create my textures and test them on each body I create for. My stockings that work with Maitreya won't work on a Slink body and won't work on a system body because the seams simply don't line up the same from a system body, to the Mait body or Slink body. Yes, they all use the same UV map but they aren't stretched the same over each body. So it's not a matter of my just not including for system .. I would have to create a separate texture to work on the system body. I know there are creators out there who use the same texture across all mesh bodies and system alike. I'm not one of those. 

In the years since I made the choice to only support Maitreya and Slink, I've not had one customer ask me for a system layer. So it's really not been an issue for me at all until the BoM project became a reality. Though even with BoM, I doubt I will make textures for the system body because I just don't have the demand for it. So, I will continue to support Maitreya and Slink even when I make system layers for BoM. Will some try to use my stockings with a system body? Possibly, but the seams won't line up perfectly if they do.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Blush Bravin
added further explanation

[Theresa Tennyson]

42 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

I don't know about other merchants, but I have a target audience. I can't create for everyone on the grid. I choose to create items that are targeted for users of the Maitreya Mesh body and the Slink mesh body. I don't have a large store, or a large inventory, or an unlimited amount of time to create for SL. So my products may not be meeting your needs but then there are many out there that I'm sure do. It's all a matter of choice. Isn't it?

Let me explain further. I actually create my textures and test them on each body I create for. My stockings that work with Maitreya won't work on a Slink body and won't work on a system body because the seams simply don't line up the same from a system body, to the Mait body or Slink body. Yes, they all use the same UV map but they aren't stretched the same over each body. So it's not a matter of my just not including for system .. I would have to create a separate texture to work on the system body. I know there are creators out there who use the same texture across all mesh bodies and system alike. I'm not one of those. 

In the years since I made the choice to only support Maitreya and Slink, I've not had one customer ask me for a system layer. So it's really not been an issue for me at all until the BoM project became a reality. Though even with BoM, I doubt I will make textures for the system body because I just don't have the demand for it. So, I will continue to support Maitreya and Slink even when I make system layers for BoM. Will some try to use my stockings with a system body? Possibly, but the seams won't line up perfectly if they do.

That's entirely your right - however, it's something you've done because its your choice, not necessarily that of your customers. For instance, it appears that Belleza is more popular than Slink currently and all major bodies are now Omega compatible, so your market doesn't appear to line up with the general population any more.

[Blush Bravin]

8 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

That's entirely your right - however, it's something you've done because its your choice, not necessarily that of your customers. For instance, it appears that Belleza is more popular than Slink currently and all major bodies are now Omega compatible, so your market doesn't appear to line up with the general population any more.

When Belleza was first released I tried to make stockings for it but the UV was impossible and therefore, a no go for me (yes, I know the UV have been changed since then). So I gave up trying and focused on the two that were the most popular bodies at the time. But as you suggest, Slink and Belleza are neck and neck but yet so far behind Maitreya that I think I'll go ahead from this point forward and just focus on Maitreya. It does have easily 80% of the mesh body market.  As far as being Omega compatible that doesn't figure into how I make stockings. Had you read my response carefully you'd see that I make a separate texture for each of the bodies. It is the only way to get quality seams on the back of the leg all they way down the ankle. So using the Omega system wouldn't be useful in this case.

I'm not telling you how to run your business or who your customers are, I'm not sure why you think you have the right to suggest how I should run mine. I am first and foremost my own customer. I make things for myself. That's how I got into creating in the first place. People asked me if I sold my creations. When I responded no, they asked if I would consider selling to them. Over time, I got more and more requests and that's why I went into business. So, while I have most of the mesh bodies currently available, I only wear Maitreya. It is by far my favorite body. I'm very happy creating for myself and if others want to buy those creations .. wonderful. But I'm not in this to build a customer base by appealing to every need out there.

I started this thread because of an issue with accessibility to UUID numbers in the developer menu and it's possible impact to the BoM project. I'm not going to respond to anymore posts that are off topic.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[Chellynne Bailey]

I've said this before and I'll say this again, the best way, the ONLY way to keep people from ripping your content is to remove the motivation to do so. That means good customer service, reasonable prices AND providing both System and Applier Support for anyone who might want to wear your thing. 

We saw huge surges in piracy when we went to mesh bodies specifically because so many products were not updated with appliers right away.
To this day I'm still telling people "no, you shouldn't rip that System layer just cause you want to wear it. Ask the creator for an applier, and if they say no, find something else."

As more products got Appliers, piracy went down. People, for the most part, are good and will buy and use a product legitimately as long as you don't make it too hard for them.

It's another big reason I keep harping on the API. If we don't get it, people are going to be tempted back to Grey-Hat ripping because it'll be the only way to get a good system layer copy of their favorite skin. 

And the more people lured into "Grey-Hat" ripping for Self-Use, who will now know how to do it, the more likely one of them will turn black-hat and use the tools to grab things they've not already bought or share the things they bought with friends, or get annoyed with a creator and decide it's ok to resell those things on the MP.

[Maitimo]

Maybe I'm wrong but it's my understanding that bakes-on-mesh will make appliers obsolete anyway, so I'm confused - even if an unscrupulous person was to get hold of the UUID, what use would it do them? Make an applier that no-one would ever use?

[Coffee Pancake]

Something being obsolete never stopped half of SL creators using it anyway.

!QUIT 

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

On 5/14/2018 at 2:49 AM, Blush Bravin said:

99% of my customers use mesh bodies and therefore not providing a system layer has not been an issue

I used to be a customer. I don't have a mesh body. You can do the maths.

It's not really an issue for me either. I just shop elsewhere.

[Whirly Fizzle]

3 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

Maybe I'm wrong but it's my understanding that bakes-on-mesh will make appliers obsolete anyway, so I'm confused - even if an unscrupulous person was to get hold of the UUID, what use would it do them? Make an applier that no-one would ever use?

If you have the texture UUID, you can download the texture in a web browser directly from the CDN & upload it into SL.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

49 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

If you have the texture UUID, you can download the texture in a web browser directly from the CDN & upload it into SL.

Or just apply it to other things you own, with absolutely no ill intent.

[Klytyna]

5 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

Maybe I'm wrong but it's my understanding that bakes-on-mesh will make appliers obsolete anyway,

You're wrong... Bake-Fail-on-Mesh doesn't do materials, so it can only be used to recreate that tired old "matte finish body paint instead of clothing" look, while appliers allow the use of materials, with specular and normal maps, for a much better finish.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

11 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

You're wrong... Bake-Fail-on-Mesh doesn't do materials, so it can only be used to recreate that tired old "matte finish body paint instead of clothing" look, while appliers allow the use of materials, with specular and normal maps, for a much better finish.

 

Because if you paint a bench red instead of blue you can't use the same sandpaper and varnish with it.

 

Oh, wait...

[Drake1 Nightfire]

4 hours ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

I used to be a customer. I don't have a mesh body. You can do the maths.

It's not really an issue for me either. I just shop elsewhere.

I find it hilarious that you said you were a customer of the OP and stopped because they dont offer system layers anymore, AND THEY LIKED YOUR POST! It's like there is some sort of disconnect between what they think they read and what they actually read.  

@Blush Bravin Newsflash, you lost a customer because of your choices! Why you think that's a good thing is beyond me. 

[Fionalein]

31 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I find it hilarious that you said you were a customer of the OP and stopped because they dont offer system layers anymore, AND THEY LIKED YOUR POST! It's like there is some sort of disconnect between what they think they read and what they actually read.  

@Blush Bravin Newsflash, you lost a customer because of your choices! Why you think that's a good thing is beyond me. 

some people just like well explained feedback, even/especially if they have to rethink after it

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I find it hilarious that you said you were a customer of the OP and stopped because they dont offer system layers anymore, AND THEY LIKED YOUR POST! It's like there is some sort of disconnect between what they think they read and what they actually read.  

@Blush Bravin Newsflash, you lost a customer because of your choices! Why you think that's a good thing is beyond me. 

Drake, I didn't loose a customer. I even checked my vendor records and nope .. she's never been one of my customers. (added with edit - or if she has it was more than 6 years ago when I started using a vendor system) What I liked is that she has had no trouble finding what she needs. I don't pretend or try to provide everything for everybody. That is a sure way to either totally burn out or have way too many irons in the fire.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Blush Bravin

[Blush Bravin]

41 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I find it hilarious that you said you were a customer of the OP and stopped because they dont offer system layers anymore, AND THEY LIKED YOUR POST! It's like there is some sort of disconnect between what they think they read and what they actually read.  

@Blush Bravin Newsflash, you lost a customer because of your choices! Why you think that's a good thing is beyond me. 

I just spent the last few days redoing my home in SL. I also spent a good amount of time looking for a kitchen set to fit my needs. I went to probably 8 or 10 different stores that I frequent but nothing fit my fancy. Did I send mail telling the creators that there's something wrong with them because they don't have what I needed? Heck no! That's not their responsibility. So you know what I did, I opened Blender and started a new project. I still don't understand why people think that just because someone has a store and makes a product line that somehow that creator now has a responsibility to make things other tIhan what they want to create. Vive la difference! Surely with the number of creators in SL we don't all need to make the same things. If I don't offer a product I'm sure there are many out there that do. 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

I just spent the last few days redoing my home in SL. I also spent a good amount of time looking for a kitchen set to fit my needs. I went to probably 8 or 10 different stores that I frequent but nothing fit my fancy. Did I send mail telling the creators that there's something wrong with them because they don't have what I needed? Heck no! That's not their responsibility. So you know what I did, I opened Blender and started a new project. I still don't understand why people think that just because someone has a store and makes a product line that somehow that creator now has a responsibility to make things other tIhan what they want to create. Vive la difference! Surely with the number of creators in SL we don't all need to make the same things. If I don't offer a product I'm sure there are many out there that do. 

You are totally missing the point.. Seeing as you have to upload the texture in order to make appliers anyway, what harm is there in making the system layers as well? It takes seconds to make each layer. All you are doing is cutting off potential customers. Seeing as you sell flexi prim skirts as well, which are so outdated its not even funny, one wonders why you buck at system layers. It is just as easy to snag applier UUiDs as it is system UUiDs. They are stored on your computer in the texture cache folder. Every single texture you see inworld. applied, system, furniture, all of it. 

[Tarani Tempest]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You are totally missing the point.. Seeing as you have to upload the texture in order to make appliers anyway, what harm is there in making the system layers as well? It takes seconds to make each layer. All you are doing is cutting off potential customers. Seeing as you sell flexi prim skirts as well, which are so outdated its not even funny, one wonders why you buck at system layers. It is just as easy to snag applier UUiDs as it is system UUiDs. They are stored on your computer in the texture cache folder. Every single texture you see inworld. applied, system, furniture, all of it. 

Maybe you don't read good  

She has already explained... that the textures she makes are specific to the mesh bodies she works with.  Those textures do not translate well on the system body, as in...things don't line up well, etc.  She would have to remake those textures to fit, and she doesn't feel they are wanted enough to warrant spending more time to do that.  Her target market is those with mesh bodies.   It is not that hard of a concept.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

12 minutes ago, Tarani Tempest said:

Maybe you don't read good  

She has already explained... that the textures she makes are specific to the mesh bodies she works with.  Those textures do not translate well on the system body, as in...things don't line up well, etc.  She would have to remake those textures to fit, and she doesn't feel they are wanted enough to warrant spending more time to do that.  Her target market is those with mesh bodies.   It is not that hard of a concept.

As someone who has made textures for system layer bodies for over ten years and mesh bodies and mesh clothing for over four, that is a load of bullcrap. The textures line up exactly the same for every SLuV using body. The issue is and always has been user shape. You will NEVER get a texture to work with every singe shape out there. I guarantee some of their textures made specifically for Maitreya will break if used on different shapes. I have never had to remake a texture for any specific SLuV using body. That is a lame excuse. 

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

As someone who has made textures for system layer bodies for over ten years and mesh bodies and mesh clothing for over four, that is a load of bullcrap. The textures line up exactly the same for every SLuV using body. The issue is and always has been user shape. You will NEVER get a texture to work with every singe shape out there. I guarantee some of their textures made specifically for Maitreya will break if used on different shapes. I have never had to remake a texture for any specific SLuV using body. That is a lame excuse. 

Show me your one texture fits all with a perfectly lined up seam for seamed stockings that lines up with system bodies and all mesh bodies. Yes, if you are not having to carefully match up seams or nipple positions then sure you can use one for all, but that's not the kind of appliers I make. 

I used to make system clothing with flexi skirts yes, I had many ask me to make appliers for some of those so I did. I haven't made any kind of system clothing or flexis since mesh bodies came out. I made a few applier clothing items during the very early days of mesh bodies when it was near impossible to find rigged clothing for bodies. I honestly am surprised that they still sell, but they do so I have not pulled them from my MP store. 

Not only have I had to make specific textures because the UV is stretched differently over the mesh body but I've even had to update appliers after a body was updated. When Slink first released the Physique I made a lace dress and matched up the lace on the side seams perfectly, but Siddean made some tweaks to the UV on the first update of the body which made my lace no longer match so I had to update those appliers. Perhaps having all those patterns matching on the side seams doesn't matter to you, they do to me. 

 

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

5 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

Drake, I didn't loose a customer. I even checked my vendor records and nope .. she's never been one of my customers. (added with edit - or if she has it was more than 6 years ago when I started using a vendor system) What I liked is that she has had no trouble finding what she needs. I don't pretend or try to provide everything for everybody. That is a sure way to either totally burn out or have way too many irons in the fire.

Maybe I have the name wrong. Did you take a hiatus a few years ago and then return? The Blush I'm thinking of did that and my purchase history would have been before the hiatus. And two alts'. We had a bit of a splurge at the closing sale.

The thing is, you've lost me (and everyone with a female system av) as a customer - whether potential or past - because of a decision which doesn't necessarily require a huge amount of work and doesn't gain you anything. It's not like having to add an extra body to the workflow for mesh clothes.

My work is niche and I don't mind that, so I definitely understand not even trying to cater to everyone. But do it for the right reasons, not because of false assumptions about risk.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Bitsy Buccaneer

[Klytyna]

7 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Because if you paint a bench red instead of blue you can't use the same sandpaper and varnish with it.

 

Oh, wait...

Oh look, a Tech-Illiterate Terry forum spam Type-2 post... the standard "says something really stupid [newline newline] Oh wait..." post

Try this comparison instead...

Does your "University of Buttburg" Officlal Philoso-Failure Graduate sweat-shirt use the sale normal maps and specular maps as say... A glossy latex catsuit with a zipper down the back and raised seams and wrinkles?

Of course it does! Everything is Flat & Matte in your Bake-Fail world, right?

 

 

Oh... Wait...

 

[Blush Bravin]

23 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Maybe I have the name wrong. Did you take a hiatus a few years ago and then return? The Blush I'm thinking of did that and my purchase history would have been before the hiatus. And two alts'. We had a bit of a splurge at the closing sale.

The thing is, you've lost me (and everyone with a female system av) as a customer - whether potential or past - because of a decision which doesn't necessarily require a huge amount of work and doesn't gain you anything. It's not like having to add an extra body to the workflow for mesh clothes.

My work is niche and I don't mind that, so I definitely understand not even trying to cater to everyone. But do it for the right reasons, not because of false assumptions about risk.

I haven't taken a hiatus. I think you must have me confused with someone else. My assumption isn't false. As I've stated before, during the early days of Omega I had several .. not one, but several of my loyal customers contact me and say they had seen my UUIDs being passed around on a notecard in the omega circles. Not official Omega but those who were using the new "thing". I only brought this subject up in the first place because I was hoping that Linden Lab would do something about the ease of obtaining UUIDs from inside the viewer. 

As for adding to my workflow .. had you read my other posts you'd see that it would actually. My appliers basically are limited to making seamed stockings and has been the case for a long time now. The only other appliers are leftovers from days long gone but with customers still requesting them I have left them available. Because I make seamed stockings I'm very particular that the seams line up properly and that just doesn't happen unless the texture is made specific to the body because although all the bodies and the system body all use the same UV, the truth is that the UV is stretched over those bodies and there's no way to make them all line up exactly the same, and with seams on the ankles those have to line up exactly! Some creators have met that problem with simply fading out the seam before it reaches the ankle but I don't like that solution. And, as I've said before, my creations start as things I want to use or wear. If I'm not going to use the item myself I don't make it. So it has been a natural progression for me to narrow my creations down to the Maitreya Lara body only, because it's the only body I wear.  I've never liked the way the system body looked and have not seen myself in a system body in more than two years.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

49 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Oh look, a Tech-Illiterate Terry forum spam Type-2 post... the standard "says something really stupid [newline newline] Oh wait..." post

Try this comparison instead...

Does your "University of Buttburg" Officlal Philoso-Failure Graduate sweat-shirt use the sale normal maps and specular maps as say... A glossy latex catsuit with a zipper down the back and raised seams and wrinkles?

Of course it does! Everything is Flat & Matte in your Bake-Fail world, right?

 

 

Oh... Wait...

 

I know enough about clothing to know that a catsuit and a sweatshirt look nothing alike and both don't look like a naked body so I wouldn't wear them using bakes-on-mesh even if there were materials. I also know that "raised seams and wrinkles" done with materials mostly say, "I'm too cheap to buy a modeled version so I'm wearing faky-jaky - am I not hott?" -- and the answer to that is... nott.

Oh, and you do realize that in Second Life glossiness for the specular channel is set as a variable by face and not by texture, so your hott latex catsuit and your skin would need to have the same glossiness if bakes-on-mesh had materials support?

Edited May 28, 2018 by Theresa Tennyson

[Klytyna]

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Oh, and you do realize that in Second Life glossiness for the specular channel is set as a variable by face and not by texture, so your hott latex catsuit and your skin would need to have the same glossiness if bakes-on-mesh had materials support?

I knew that over a year ago, when I told you and the other Bake-Fail propaganda spewers that bake-fail was a bloody stupid idea.

It's STILL a bloody stupid idea, thats only supported by those tech-illiterate enough to believe the propaganda, and by those who think it will resurrect their failing "system clothing and skins" businesses, by allowing them to sell their 10 yar old back-catalog to future generations of tech-illiterate noobs.

1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I also know that "raised seams and wrinkles" done with materials mostly say, "I'm too cheap to buy a modeled version so I'm wearing faky-jaky - am I not hott?" -- and the answer to that is... nott.

Is there no end to your hypocrisy and cluelessness...

One of the "advantages" of bake-fail that YOU specifically have been so keen to stress, is doing away for the need for meshed layers close to the skin, but a translucent latex catsuit for example, that was MODELED, in 3d, would basically be a copy of the body, with the minor modification of spanning arous the cleavage, and butt crack, just like ...

The clothing layer on your materials applier friendly mesh onion-layer body. So, you are basically saying, wear an onio layer... And then you make the mistake of calling for MESHED seams and fine wrinkles, apparently oblivious to the massive increase in poly could resulting from this, and apparently oblivious to the FACT that much of the mesh based clothing these days, USES NORMAL MAPS to add such details rather than modeling them.

I'd suggest you turn on Advanced Lighting Model, wear a Maitreya body, and try a demo from one of the materials based latex applier vendors, there are several, so you can see just how WRONG you are... Again...

Here's a product shot from ONE of the materials based applier makers, not the fine wrinkles and seam lines in the suit, the kind of detail that NOBODY would try and model into a mesh, unless they were completely ignorant of the technical realities of mesh-making and rendering costs.

...

Let's sum up YOUR position so far.

1. Bake-Fail uber alles, because onion layered mesh is EVIL (PS. You can wear all your 10 year old system rags again)

2. Matte finish flat 'body paint" looks better than spec/normal mapped materials.

3. Appliers for materials on onion-skin bodies are obsolete because... You could wear a 3rd party skin tight mesh suit with a massive poly count and rendering cost, that uses materials, in stead of simply applying materials to a layer on your body...

...

Facts tend to disagree with YOUR opinion. Hmmm, so...

Fact free Pro-Bake-Fail Propaganda Materials Hating SL-Fossil Hypocrisy much?
 

[Callum Meriman]

2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Oh, and you do realize that in Second Life glossiness for the specular channel is set as a variable by face and not by texture, so your hott latex catsuit and your skin would need to have the same glossiness if bakes-on-mesh had materials support?

My skin has normal pores, it has normal veins, it has normal musculature, it has specular body oil, it can have specular water drops, it can have specular sweat.

Baked-on-fail will have none of that, it would need a seperate applier... And if you have a seperate applier... may as well put the diffuse in it too.

I still believe Baked-on-fail should be dropped until it's feature complete or better, just shelved entirely and the development effort put into projects that are more important.