Please. Can we have more physics.

[Beq Janus]

The other problem you seem to be forgetting is that physics collisions take a lot of processing. This is why even on the server we need simple and reliable, volume representations, not the flat triangles that many creators default to. If we can't rez reliably because the server side physics has been skimped on by a creator then we have zero hope of getting it to work on the client side.

On 5/2/2018 at 4:07 AM, CoffeeDujour said:

Even CAMERA ONLY client side collision would be awesome. It wont affect anyone else and there will be no more clipping into walls for a split second while the viewer waits for the region to tell it to move.

2

That would be good if visible mesh was not stupidly complex. But wait we can rely on low LOD models, oh no, we forgot the creator has zapped the LOW LOD to keep the LI low and let them cram even more pointless vertices into an over-complex high lod model.

To determine collisions you need to have a basic collision mesh. In Havok, for example, the engine loves spheres, why? because to collision detect a sphere you need only know the centre and the radius, anything closer than that must be hitting it. Extend that to triangles. Every triangle needs to be checked for intersection with every other triangle a far more complex task especially when there are millions of the little fellas in the scene. There are lots of tricks you can do by subdividing the scene to rule out things that can't possibly intersect. Except even then we have every trick under the sun employed to force the viewer to misidentify objects that are out of view and cullable so I have severe doubt we could ever rely on visual meshes and cunning logic to help us here. This is why we beg and plead with creators to give a proper physics shape that is low poly and volume representative of the visible mesh. 

Now, this is not to say that you could not create some rules, let's say "use the bounding box" as a starter, except that people have been gaming the bounding box size to force LOD. You could compute a convex hull for objects, but you'd need to be able to work out what the "true" shape of a mesh is and again I suspect that you'd end up generating vast numbers of false collisions.

I fully agree with the premise that @CoffeeDujour raises. It would be awesome not to ghost through tables just cos your AO is a little antsy but unless there is a reliable way to take any arbitrary item in SL and determine a reliable collision shape, it's not going to be viable. no matter what physics engine you use.

All that being said. Perhaps I am expecting too much here. Perhaps you could leave the physics problem to the user, if the creator made bad physics shapes and you want to use it in client-side collisions then tough, buy better content. If we put the onus on the user/sim owner who wanted the physics to work to only use sensible objects, the current physics decomp calls that a Havok enabled viewer has access to could be used, this would also go somewhay to encouraging more creators to pay attention ot LOD models and physics; on the downside though, at the present time that moves the argument back to Whirly's point. Only Havok enabled viewers could possibly work then. 

On which note:

On 9/21/2018 at 6:49 AM, animats said:

Which is why the Firestorm viewer doesn't even try to show that.

It absolutely does. You must be using your own self-compile or the OS version cos the Havok build will replicate the LL viewer.

[Macrocosm Draegonne]

Perhaps he tried the firestorm physics upload before they got the 64bit havok stuff somewhat recently?  I recall it wasn't there last year when I tried too, but it is now for sure

I agree about the physics shape, often I disable physics on various mesh. Its great for decorations and such, so I can see why some creators might skimp on physics, knowing people will likely do just that, set to phantom and disable the physics, add it to a linkset which gets its own simpler invisible prim/mesh physics shape.  Of course thats not always a viable solution.  Its enlightening to turn on the physics Render data in the viewer, you can see exactly what Beq is getting at, theres a HUGE array of things all over the place, with varying levels of quality and attention to physics or any other such quality concerns, sometimes the physics is just jacked, and I imagine the more of that the more lag in an area created too.

 

[Stifftailed]

 

On 4/29/2018 at 7:56 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Simulator physics and the number of updates sent to the client is solely responsible for the way Second Life feels. Movement, running, vehicles, combat games, even simply walking are dependent on it, and wholly responsible for Second Life feeling like treacle at best. This feeling is responsible for a large part of the "Second Life Sucks" impression many people have, creating an instant negative impression from the very first session and causing pain every single day for the rest of an avatars life.

It's impossible to create anything avatar-movement-interactive that feels like an actual game, and while we're all busy declaring "SL ISN'T A GAME" .. we're covering up for the fact we wish it could at least feel like we're interacting with one. Gaming in SL could totally be a thing, it's easily possible to get the aesthetic and interactive elements right (even more so with Animesh approaching).. just so long as nobody moves.

Just a little more time for physics would make a huge difference to literally everything we do in SL that isn't standing still chatting .. imagine if we could actually do more than that!

How about some physics on the client with the havok libs we already have on everyone's desktop for navmesh visualization and mesh uploading.

 

At this point the only reason I can think this has persisted for so long is that no one at the Lab has ever played an actual game. Some one set up a minecraft server, get a few staff on and run around for 20 minutes punching each other and then log into SL.

 

imma necromancer D:

I was wondering the same thing, about physics.  I know that this thread is kind of old but it still applies, especially as we haven't gotten any updates regarding this.  I hear that secondlife bleeds new players, and I think this is one of the reasons why.  I'm not sure if its the same thing but, even the physics when jumping, momentum when walking or running, is actually pain.  Like you said, if you've played just about any game before, you would realize how bad the movement in Secondlife is.  Even the worst games released today have better movement than secondlife.  

If I'm not mistaken I hear that there are bones that exist in the SL rig already for some type of additional physics, they just aren't enabled.  

Even though SL is so old, the Mesh update was a huge quality of life improvement, experiences, animesh, all of these things inject new life into SL and its possibilities.  Would love to see some type of physics that change the way avatars interact with each other and the environment.

PS: The whole "walking over waist high obstacles through brute force" is pretty wierd tbh, and while I'm at it walking up inclines or slopes, the avatar can't handle it well and doesn't know where to put their feets.

[animats]

1 hour ago, Stifftailed said:

PS: The whole "walking over waist high obstacles through brute force" is pretty weird tbh, and while I'm at it walking up inclines or slopes, the avatar can't handle it well and doesn't know where to put their feet.

Yes. SL's character animation is way behind. The SL architecture doesn't really know much about avatars. To the sim servers, an avatar is just a cylindrical object. There's a minor gimmick to tell the viewer the ground angle, to allow feet to adapt to the ground, but that's about it. Viewer side, the viewer has no collision detection. So clothing goes through clothing and body parts. Hands and legs go through furniture. Animations are canned movement files that run blind, unaware what's around them.

Fixing this would require a total redesign. And a much higher minimum hardware requirement.

Enough collision detection to stop limb movements when they hit something, though... Worth thinking about. And a clothing system where, when you change clothes, some physics runs and makes sure the outside stuff is on the outside.

Meanwhile, you can watch Epic's Unreal Engine 5 demo. Someday, open virtual worlds will be this good. Probably around 2025.

Epic's next-generation animation system. We can dream, can't we?

[Anna Nova]

On 4/30/2018 at 3:56 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

...

How about some physics on the client with the havok libs we already have on everyone's desktop for navmesh visualization and mesh uploading.

...

 

The Linux versions of Firestorm don't have Havok.  So, no, we don't have havok on 'everyone's' desktop.

Edit:  Oh shh....  it's a necrothread, I didn't spot that in time....

Edited May 18, 2021 by Anna Nova
Necrothread

[Coffee Pancake]

8 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

The Linux versions of Firestorm don't have Havok.  So, no, we don't have havok on 'everyone's' desktop.

Edit:  Oh shh....  it's a necrothread, I didn't spot that in time....

It's been 3 years since I made that post and nothing has changed, so obviously it's ok for us to talk about all the nice things we could have if only ..... these threads have so much value.

/SARCASM

[Aishagain]

54 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's been 3 years since I made that post and nothing has changed, so obviously it's ok for us to talk about all the nice things we could have if only ..... these threads have so much value.

Ah....patience Grasshopper.  It will come in time.  Have you not wondered what the Second Afterlife will be like?

[Anna Nova]

14 hours ago, Aishagain said:

Ah....patience Grasshopper.  It will come in time.  Have you not wondered what the Second Afterlife will be like?

What? No Third Life yet? 

Oh ya, I forget Sansar was a total fail (I put that down to no Linux version - you need geeks with everything).

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

Oh ya, I forget Sansar was a total fail (I put that down to no Linux version - you need geeks with everything).

Sansar tanked because there was zero reason to resource, develop and deploy a project there over a dozen other game dev or social platforms. It didn't have any clear purpose and once you drilled down into possible uses, there was always a better option with a clearer route to market. It took years to find any direction .. first it was slow walking VR simulator, then VR museums and finally clubs (because look, fortnite did it!).

It wasn't for us. It wasn't marketed to us, it was pretty clear we weren't invited and maybe we would get rolled in to the Sansarverse at some later date. you know, if and when they felt SL could be killed off and we'd be willing to accept a more advertiser friendly platform (wow, thanks). It blead all the talent and money away from SL development and is broadly responsible for where things are today. Ready player one's 80's vibe really cemented the entire project as SuckSar.

Maybe you're thinking, wow that's harsh, you're a tad bitter! Sure thing I am. I've been a tad bitter ever since Ebbe showed up to the TPV developer meeting to announce the brave new world, best summed up as ' we wont need you anymore, thanks for all the fish '.

But hey .. here I am ranting in a 3 year old thread, I started, begging for more resources for SL.

[animats]

15 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

since Ebbe showed up to the TPV developer meeting to announce the brave new world, best summed up as ' we wont need you anymore, thanks for all the fish '.

Is there a video of that?