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Kara Trapdoor

Mainland Beauty

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51 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I'm purposely not taking in account the L$ kickback because this wasn't about what it cost to the user, but what it brings in income to Linden Lab.

That makes it a bit more complicated. LL's gross income from 64 annual premium members is 4608 USD a year. The gross income from renting out a whole sim to a single person is 2100 USD a year.

But having 64 1024 m2 parcels in a single sim isn't realistic. Even half of it is too much really. A Horizons sim has 24 1024 m2 parcels and I think that number was chosen deliberately because LL realized the couldn't cram more owners into it. 24 annual premiums, that's 1728 m2 a year - less than what they make from renting out a whole sim to a single user.

Then there are the other costs of premiums. For example, more people with access to live chat support means LL has to emply more people to do support. The stipend isn't free for LL either. The known economic metrics all suggest that a significant amount of the Linden dollars sold on LindeX are fresh supplies from LL and that also seems to be the most plausible explanation why the exchange rate is so stable. More Lindens paid out as stipends means less sales for LL on LindeX.

It's also unlikely that a big landowner is actually able to use their entire tier at any given time and they pay LL quite a bit for the right to own land they don't actually have.

Taking all that into account, I think it's safe to say that LL makes far more from a single owner of a whole sim than they would from the number of 1024 m2-only premium members they could have crammed into that same sim.

As for landowners with more than one sim, the price per mainland sim is actually higher if you have more than one of them. As we have discussed earlier, there must be some quantity discount for the really big landowners but I don't think many - if any - mainland owners are in that league. I happen to know that 60 sims is not enough for a discount and I think I've hard that not even a hundred sims will do.

Edited by ChinRey
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I'm not entirely convinced. I think for the long run it would be better for LL to become less reliant on its "Whales", but that involve expanding the userbase and I don't really have ideas there.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Or are you talking about something else i didn't factor in?

One Madland Entitlement Club member owning a full Madlands region = $175 per month tier...

64 Madlands Entitlement Club members each owning their "tier free" 1024 plot, brings in LESS than $64 per month...

This is because after LL give club members their stipend cashback, the ACTUAL income from Madlands Entitlement Club membership is LESS than $1 per member per month.

You forgot to factor in the fact that money you give back to the customer, is not, in fact, income for the company...

You don't have to take my word for it, you own a store... For the nest month, every  time somebody buys a KDC product, make a note of it, and at the end of the month refund 5/6ths of the purchase price and see what happens to your stores income for that month.
 

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2 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

One Madland Entitlement Club member owning a full Madlands region = $175 per month tier...

64 Madlands Entitlement Club members each owning their "tier free" 1024 plot, brings in LESS than $64 per month...

This is because after LL give club members their stipend cashback, the ACTUAL income from Madlands Entitlement Club membership is LESS than $1 per member per month.

You forgot to factor in the fact that money you give back to the customer, is not, in fact, income for the company...

You don't have to take my word for it, you own a store... For the nest month, every  time somebody buys a KDC product, make a note of it, and at the end of the month refund 5/6ths of the purchase price and see what happens to your stores income for that month.
 

As said previously, Linden Lab doesn't pay itself, its bills or server costs with L$, and while yes they are giving you something, If you want to get actual USDs out of it you have to sell those L$ to another user (LL will take a cut on this transaction), at no point is this money that hasn't been injected by another resident in the SecondLife economy.

And yes they have to be careful about how much they give if they don't want to end up with an inflation problem, but L$ only have a cash value as long as you find a resident willing to buy it from you.

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15 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

 at no point is this money that hasn't been injected by another resident in the SecondLife economy.

Right, but this is also why, in the grand scheme of things, stipends really do offset income from Premium subscriptions: it's revenue the Lab forgoes because the stipends satisfy L$ demand that would otherwise earn the Lab real US$s for minting fresh, money-supply-replenishing spacebux. Indeed, another way of looking at the Premium subscription is as a way of monetizing the L$, with a little Mainland ownership thrown in as a side benefit.

Anyway, however we decide to apportion the Lab's Premium subscriptions between Land and L$, it's not clear to me what steps the Lab should take if it wanted to shift Mainland revenue from large customers to smaller ones. I guess the "quantity discount" could be less generous, but that would lessen the incentive for each individual to expand holdings and tier-up -- and that would be disastrous.

Also, as long as large landowners aren't really displacing smaller landowners -- and there's still plenty of vacant Mainland available to be reclaimed -- I'd be mighty reluctant to try to shrink anybody's holdings.

If I were going to do anything like that, I might consider charging a listing fee for each week that a parcel stayed for sale , on the premise that most "large holdings risk" is associated with land dealers rather than not-for-sale installations. Practically, there's a pretty low ceiling on such a fee before alternative land markets became common -- inevitably accompanied by scams and recriminations -- so I'm not sure that particular idea is really worth pursuing after all.

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That is absolutely true Qie, but it's probably having a more complex influence in how people consume and purchase L$ in SL.

As for the displacement part I am pretty sure that there is a very measurable negative effect with some mainland rental companies that I shall not name that most likely drive the land to abandon in their immediate vicinity.

How about a transaction fee on land sales? Ah nevermind they can bypass that too if it really begins to bite.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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18 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Also, as long as large landowners aren't really displacing smaller landowners -- and there's still plenty of vacant Mainland available to be reclaimed -- I'd be mighty reluctant to try to shrink anybody's holdings.

But that's what they are doing. Owning larger amounts of mainland is far less attractive now than it used to be and despite what many people seem to think, it wasn't very attractive in the first place.

 

22 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Anyway, however we decide to apportion the Lab's Premium subscriptions between Land and L$, it's not clear to me what steps the Lab should take if it wanted to shift Mainland revenue from large customers to smaller ones.

I can't imagine they have any opinion about this at all actually. It's something they simply haven't thought of.

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Another one of those ideas that I had rattling around in my head.  This one to use up empty mainland and shift the use from large customers to smaller ones.

I suppose it is a trick of juggling purchase price, location, and covenant stuff.   Not saying there is anything wrong with a Full Bright Pup Tent, but N.I.M.B.Y.!  

So looking at what we have now...    

1) Madlands  - purchase price, pick what ever spot you want (can afford),  no covenant stuff  (well other than Bay City, etc & other than content rating), no preexisting home

2) Linden Homes - no purchase price,  random spot, covenant stuff with a preexisting home  (sure the neighbor can put a Full Bright Pup Tent on the Roof, but.. don't seem to happen often)  

so maybe.... need option 3 

- Use existing abandoned land apportioned into a mix of 512m2 and 1024m2 parcels.

- Possibility holding some of the region in reserve to make the parcels prim bonus land (but not a full double prim parcel..  more like 1.2 prim bonus)

- Figure a fixed cost for a parcel at a shade below 1L/sqm.  (or a shade over 1L/sqm if there is a prim bonus).   So the prices would be around $L500 for a 512m2 parcel

- Random Parcel assignment

- NO RESALE

- No Preexisting home, so build what ever ya want with in region guidelines.

---   And Use a Web Interface thingie like the Get a Linden Home Stuff, so you pay that for the land --- 

Dunno might be a good thing?    Is kinda halfway between the Madlands & Linden Homes.  I figure having a Price on getting the land, but a LOW price, will minimize people getting and dropping of the Land, so there is a little visual / aesthetic / performance stability.   Now there is Risk associated with Random Parcel assignment,  but if they wanna pay more..  pick and buy a parcel.

And throwing this in here too.  On the Agenda is New Linden homes so while they may be packed in Horizions Style rezzers, having the option to have a blank Linden Homes parcel might actually result in less of a difference between Mainland and Linden Homes regions, but not in a good way.  More in a 'ZOMG!  There is the Full Bright Pup Tents"  kinda way.

So that is why maybe making option 3 would be useful?  Kinda that midpoint between juggling purchase price, location, and covenant stuff.

Edited by KathrynLisbeth

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3 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

As for the displacement part I am pretty sure that there is a very measurable negative effect with some mainland rental companies that I shall not name that most likely drive the land to abandon in their immediate vicinity.

I think most of the really big ones are based all on premium tier now, either they rent unused tier from others or they run an armada of alts.

But quite honestly I'm getting a bit tired of this "everybody who owns more than a small parcel on mainland are bastards" attitude.

Take a look at the title of this thread: "Mainland Beauty".

It does actually exist, it's not all Madlands. Linden Lab has no interest in such a context though. Well maybe a little bit. There are some old builds they haven't bothered to take down yet, they still show some lukewarm and slowly cooling interest in Bay City and for some miraculous reason, they do seem to hold their hand over Abbotts even after Blacktip passed away. But that's about it.

Practically everything that can possibly be called "Mainland Beauty" and is made to be enjoyable not only for the owner but other SL'ers too, is made by passionate SL users who often have to fight desperately against the Lab to achieve what they want. Or preserved by passionate users. If it had been up to LL, sims like Boardman and Iris - maybe even Clementina - would have been just generic ugly Madlands by now. Some of those places are maintained by groups working together but most of the time it is a single person who have to shoulder it all.

If you want to achieve something like that and only have a 1024, you're really up against the odds. You'll be lucky indeed if you can manage to maintain your vision for a prolonged time.

Most big and medium sized mainland owners care about and believe in the concept of SL as a virtual world - something more and bigger than a bunch of small isolated pockets that might as well have been IMVU chat rooms.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with those enclosed pockets. There should be room for that in Second Life. But there should also be room for larger contextual areas - places that will entice newcomers to stay a little bit longer and maybe eventually buy their own little pocket, places for the people who want more than the claustrophobic little box they can pay tier for. Such places do exist but it's only because of the big landowners.

Edited by ChinRey
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14 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I think most of the really big ones are based all on premium tier now, either they rent unused tier from others or they run an armada of alts.

But quite honestly I'm getting a bit tired of this "everybody who owns more than a small parcel on mainland are bastards" attitude.

Take a look at the title of this thread: "Mainland Beauty".

It does actually exist, it's not all Madlands. Linden Lab has no interest in such a context though. Well maybe a little bit. There are some old builds they haven't bothered to take down yet, they still show some lukewarm and slowly cooling interest in Bay City and for some miraculous reason, they do seem to hold their hand ove Abbotts even after Blacktip passed away. But that's about it.

Practically everything that can possibly be called "Mainland Beauty" and is made to be enjoyable not only for the owner but other SL'ers too, is made by passionate SL users who often have to fight desperately against the Lab to achieve what they want. Or preserved by passionate users. If it had been up to LL, sims like Boardman and Iris - maybe even Clementina - would have been just generic ugly Madlands by now. Some of those places are maintained by groups working together but most of the time it is a single person who have to shoulder it all.

If you want to achieve something like that and only have a 1024, you're really up against the odds. You'll be lucky indeed if you can manage to maintain your vision for a prolonged time.

Most big and medium sized mainland owners care about and believe in the concept of SL as a virtual world - something more and bigger than a bunch of small isolated pockets that might as well have been IMVU chat rooms.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with those enclosed pockets. There should be room for that in Second Life. But there should also be room for larger contextual areas - places that will entice newcomers to stay a little bit longer and maybe eventually buy their own little pocket, places for the people who want more than the claustrophobic little box they can pay tier for. Such places do exist but it's only because of the big landowners.

Why does it has to BE a pocket at all? People seem to have this mentality that the people around them are always going to try to take advantage of them and that any sort of cooperation is impossible.

They are few and far between but there are examples of mainland areas where the different landowners, small and big are trying to create a better place, together.

I care deeply about secondlife but time and time again is showing me that a lot of the people who are successful in here are those who have little to no online presence and/or are literally just here to plunder what's left of us.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir

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49 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

People seem to have this mentality that the people around them are always going to try to take advantage of them and that any sort of cooperation is impossible.

To quote myself from another thread:

"A neighbor is an enemy you haven't met yet" :P

 

49 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

They are few and far between but there are examples of mainland areas where the different landowners, small and big are trying to create a better place, together.

There are. I mentioned Bay City and Boardman. Those are prime examples that collective theme building can work.

But what happens if somebody buys a plot in the middle of a medieval town and builds a huge smoking steampunk factory on a sky platform 20 m above the ground? Who's to stop them? I have a feeling LL actually would step in if something like that happened in Bay City but if it was anywhere else, they couldn't care less.

 

49 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I care deeply about secondlife but time and time again is showing me that a lot of the people who are successful in here are those who have little to no online presence and/or are literally just here to plunder what's left of us.

Mind you, I didn't say all big landowners are good, considerate people. But in my experience, most of them are.

Right next to my land there is a big parcel, more than half a sim, owned by one of the bigger skybox rental companies. It's only used as anchorage for skyboxes but the owner still decided to spend some prims decorating the ground with trees. When I asked him why, he didn't really have an answer. He just took it for granted that he was responsible for making his land attractive to other SL'ers too. I think that's the common attitude, at least among the mainland owners because most of those who are only in it for the money, have moved on to private estates for obvious reasons.

Edited by ChinRey

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On 5/16/2018 at 6:42 AM, ChinRey said:

I have a feeling LL actually would step in if something like that happened in Bay City but if it was anywhere else, they couldn't care less.

Somehow I don't think LL would stop them in bay city either. I've never seen/heard of LL enforcing any theme there, it is purely up to the residents to upkeep the theme. The only reason you don't see random builds wildly out of theme is due to the cost of the land. why spend that much money on land in a certain theme when you aren't going to build in that theme? Yes, it's double prim but even then it's a major cost.

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12 minutes ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

why spend that much money on land in a certain theme when you aren't going to build in that theme?

I don't know. But the residents at Nautilus and Horizons should be able to answer that.

Edited by ChinRey

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Bay city has a collective theme only in so far as its "basic SL realism" - Throw up any contemporary prim building and you're done.

Horizons has a theme for which there is very little content. "50s Retro Future" is a very specific genre and as such almost impossible to find supplies for, which is why you see a random mix. Some have gone with a sci-fi theme, many haven't.

I feel I have to mention that my eyesore temp-on-rez abusing floating skybox from hell neighbour was until very recently a bay city resident.

 

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8 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Bay city has a collective theme only in so far as its "basic SL realism" - Throw up any contemporary prim building and you're done.

It's supposed to be sort'a art deco actually, so early 20th C rather than contemporary. But yes, it's a generic and "modern" enough style to be workable and have a broad enough appeal.

 

8 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Horizons has a theme for which there is very little content. "50s Retro Future" is a very specific genre and as such almost impossible to find supplies for, which is why you see a random mix.

I think of it as "Jetson style" :P

I actually started working on  a series of houses specifically for Horizons when it was launched - houses combining a more contemporary and general scifi style with common SL-practical layout and decor while still matching the original Horizons style closely enough. It's quite easy to do but there was never that much of a market for it and it became even less interesting commercially when Horizons quickly evolved into generic anything-goes mainland.

The Horizons theme is not something that is very relevant to most scifi fans and definitely not to others. I don't think it appealed much to the Moles assigned to the project either. Much of the default content is obviouly recycled leftovers from other projects, in wildly different styles hastily retextured to look vaguely "sciencefictish". Whatever happens to Horizons, it's no big loss for the world and if somebody actually likes it, well, good for them.

It's a bit different with Nautilus. The Moles really, really put their heart into that project. Crazy Mole especially. She's a very good prim builder and an amazing texture artist and she did some of her best work for Nautilus. But the theme was just too narrow and too off the beaten track for such a large continent. A small group of about hal a dozen sims would probably have been enough to cater for the few who wanted to second-live in greek mythology inspired new age.

 

It always amazes me how people in SL insist on fighting against their surroundings rather than spend a few minutes looking for a place where their vision would fit in. It's a loose-loose situation: you reduce the quality of your surroundings and you give yourself a bit of extra headache and sometimes cost. There was some talk abut how expensive prime seaside parcels are. Here's what somebody who shelled out the Lindens for such a plot recently used it for:

5afdf51848d6d_Skjermbilde(1179).png.0e3072e83256a89eb8a5759c06096edd.png

It's a skybox on the ground. They could have saved themselves a few thousand Lindens and bought a non descript parcel in the middle of nowhere and be just as happy there. Happier even since there'd probably be fewer otther users to share sim resources with and less chance to be bothered by intruders and complaining/avenging neighbors. But they insisted on buying the most expensive parcel they could find even though they had no interest whatsoever in the factors that made it expensive. Why? Heaven only knows. But I think it says a lot about humaity in general and SL users in particular. It sure is prime fuel for misanthropy. :P

Edited by ChinRey
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On 5/18/2018 at 7:46 AM, ChinRey said:

It always amazes me how people in SL insist on fighting against their surroundings rather than spend a few minutes looking for a place where their vision would fit in. It's a loose-loose situation: you reduce the quality of your surroundings and you give yourself a bit of extra headache and sometimes cost. There was some talk abut how expensive prime seaside parcels are. Here's what somebody who shelled out the Lindens for such a plot recently used it for:

5afdf51848d6d_Skjermbilde(1179).png.0e3072e83256a89eb8a5759c06096edd.png

It's a skybox on the ground. They could have saved themselves a few thousand Lindens and bought a non descript parcel in the middle of nowhere and be just as happy there. Happier even since there'd probably be fewer otther users to share sim resources with and less chance to be bothered by intruders and complaining/avenging neighbors. But they insisted on buying the most expensive parcel they could find even though they had no interest whatsoever in the factors that made it expensive. Why? Heaven only knows. But I think it says a lot about humaity in general and SL users in particular. It sure is prime fuel for misanthropy. :P

This has since been removed FYI. Also the cost of that land is nothing compared to buying somewhere such as Bay City.

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2 hours ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

This has since been removed FYI.

Oh. I bet the neighbors are happy about that. :)

It's not uncommon though, just a typical example of what you might see on the Madlands.

 

2 hours ago, Hintswen Guardian said:

Also the cost of that land is nothing compared to buying somewhere such as Bay City.

I know but 10-15 L$/m2 (which is what the neighbor plots are on sale for right now) is still more than ten times what you'd have to pay elsewhere for a parcel more suitable for a build like that.

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On 28.4.2018 at 5:51 AM, animats said:


    * Land cannot contain sky boxes, temp-rezzers, or individual prims beyond the allocated size of the Second Life Viewer build tools — 10x10x10m (no megaprims).
   

the age of the village shows in the rules, it is 64x64x64 now... ¬¬

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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

Oh. I bet the neighbors are happy about that. :)

It's not uncommon though, just a typical example of what you might see on the Madlands.

 

I know but 10-15 L$/m2 (which is what the neighbor plots are on sale for right now) is still more than ten times what you'd have to pay elsewhere for a parcel more suitable for a build like that.

Except the person that owned that building didn't pay that much for the land, in fact they didn't own the land at all. That user was renting the land for L$400/week which isn't more than other random places of a similar size/prim allowance.

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I think you are better off buying or renting from established towns. Mainland is called madland for good reasons; you have zero control of your neighbours,if they want to put a house that is so bad in quality it assaults your visual sense, you can't stop them.

I have style controls in my city, so you don't get giant pink box with squiggly fonts on the streets. 

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LL has talked about offering total parcel isolation. Right now, you can only get that if you buy an entire region. All that's needed are a few more controls:

  • Can't see in at all. (There's already "Can't see avatars in parcel"; this would just extend that to everything).
  • Can't see out. (You see water.)
  • Bidirectional ban lines (Nobody can get in or out).

Then LL could create Cubicle Islands, full of little isolated parcels, and sell them to the skybox crowd. Like Linden Homes A, B, and C, but denser.

 

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On 5/16/2018 at 5:47 AM, ChinRey said:

Practically everything that can possibly be called "Mainland Beauty" and is made to be enjoyable not only for the owner but other SL'ers too, is made by passionate SL users who often have to fight desperately against the Lab to achieve what they want. Or preserved by passionate users. If it had been up to LL, sims like Boardman and Iris - maybe even Clementina - would have been just generic ugly Madlands by now. Some of those places are maintained by groups working together but most of the time it is a single person who have to shoulder it all.

If you want to achieve something like that and only have a 1024, you're really up against the odds. You'll be lucky indeed if you can manage to maintain your vision for a prolonged time.

Most big and medium sized mainland owners care about and believe in the concept of SL as a virtual world - something more and bigger than a bunch of small isolated pockets that might as well have been IMVU chat rooms.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with those enclosed pockets. There should be room for that in Second Life. But there should also be room for larger contextual areas - places that will entice newcomers to stay a little bit longer and maybe eventually buy their own little pocket, places for the people who want more than the claustrophobic little box they can pay tier for. Such places do exist but it's only because of the big landowners.

I'm lucky enough to own land in Iris, right next to the Moth Temple Preserve. I'm not part of the SL Public Land Preserve but there is no way I would put up some ugly, out of theme build there and ruin the place. I'm benefiting from all the work they do in making the sim a special place, so that inspires me to fit in and try to add something to the sim. I make sure people can wander around my home too if they want, I know some people would abhor that idea but who can expect privacy on the ground near an infohub and land preserve anyway. Now, the next sim over, Istar, where I own some other land which I will probably off load, is a completely different story. It has boardwalks too and you can see the Moth Temple infohub, but it's a mess of different builds and empty rentals (with big "For Rent" signs) and vacant land. I can't even be bothered trying to build something nice there. Really goes to show what a difference individuals and groups can make to mainland sims, and there are some individuals in particular who have done heaps of work in preserving and improving the mainland and that has certainly inspired my love for living there.

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