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Phil Deakins

Forum Penalities

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so means oldies leave, she's not the first one, but that spammer is, in spite of several reports... still going on.... ( not questioning moderation, just a conclusion)

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1 hour ago, Ethan Paslong said:

so means oldies leave, she's not the first one, but that spammer is, in spite of several reports... still going on.... ( not questioning moderation, just a conclusion)

Hopefully enough AR’s against the spammer will help. Same spammer messaged me today, finally a reason to AR, but also use the “ignore” function finally to stop seeing their posts.

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27 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

use the “ignore” function finally to stop seeing their posts.

yes true, but still will keep all that  2011 and other old topics at top of the pages ... i seriously don't get it...

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3 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

yes true, but still will keep all that  2011 and other old topics at top of the pages ... i seriously don't get it...

I think it would fall under the category of “chaotic neutral”. 

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Hmmm ... I come to the conclusion that there is unpredictable moderation with unpredictable results.

Since I didn't post much here anyways it's easy for me. I'll completely stop posting, I'll just check for news from time to time.

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@Nova Convair Whatever makes you feel comfortable, of course, but I don't think it's necessary to give up posting altogether.

I'm just careful about what I say here -- I try not to lose my temper online anyway, so it's my habit to stop and think before posting,  particularly if I am annoyed, and then rewrite things if necessary.   If it's something I really want to talk about and I'm worried it's against ToS I just go over the road to SLU and talk about it there.   

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Most regulars know where the line is and either stay clear or put their toes right up against, but not over, it. B|

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1 hour ago, Pamela Galli said:

Most regulars know where the line is and either stay clear or put their toes right up against, but not over, it. B|

Every now and then I think a few of us wiggle our pinkie toe over that line a tad bit.

:SwingingFriends:

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5 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Most regulars know where the line is and either stay clear or put their toes right up against, but not over, it. B|

I disagree, Pam. We know where the line should be, because the forum rules state it, but the line hasn't been there some of the time. It moved. Or it moved as far as one or more moderators are concerned. That's the problem. People have been suspended from the forum, and from SL itself, when they were nowhere near the forum line.

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20 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I disagree, Pam. We know where the line should be, because the forum rules state it, but the line hasn't been there some of the time. It moved. Or it moved as far as one or more moderators are concerned. That's the problem. People have been suspended from the forum, and from SL itself, when they were nowhere near the forum line.

No doubt there are some exceptions but most of us know how to avoid getting banned  while still getting our point across. 

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Posted (edited)

It's the exceptions that have been the problem. They can take anyone by surprise at any time. We do know how to keep on the right side of the line but we can do nothing to prevent the line from being moved sometimes, just on a whim.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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11 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

It's the exceptions that have been the problem. They can take anyone by surprise at any time. We do know how to keep on the right side of the line but we can do nothing to prevent the line from being moved sometimes, just on a whim.

Do what I do and take a step back from the line Phil, then there is an inbuilt safety margin.

As an example, it's not actually necessary to have the last word, especially when it gets down to minutia.

I don't trust myself to approach that line, so I bite my tongue a lot. The grumpier I am, the harder I bite my tongue.

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17 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Do what I do and take a step back from the line Phil, then there is an inbuilt safety margin.

As an example, it's not actually necessary to have the last word, especially when it gets down to minutia.

I don't trust myself to approach that line, so I bite my tongue a lot. The grumpier I am, the harder I bite my tongue.

This ^

The one thing that has proven most useful to me - both online and off - is knowing when to walk away, even if that means you feel you might 'lose'. There are plenty of ways to step back and bow out gracefully from most disagreements. The trick is recognising when you need to do that.

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Posted (edited)

It's very good advice, Callum, but advice that I would sometimes find it very difficult to follow when there is no anger, flaming, insulting, etc. going on. In those circumstances, the only line that ever comes into view is the line that says, "Oh we don't want that. It's not against the rules, but out you go. And for good measure, you can stay out of SL for a while as well."

An interesting thing about this is that, technically, my op in this thread crossed the line by criticising some of the moderation, but I felt I had to do that because of the wrongness of some of it, even though the person whose suspension from SL sparked it, is someone who I prefer to be out of the forum, anyway.

Another way that I see it is that this isn't just another forum. It's a forum that I, as a paying customer, use, and paying customers should not be treated as though we were in just another forum. I expect some comeback if I do something wrong, but I don't expect to be treated that way by the company I pay money to for their services unless I do do something wrong. I pay the company for my Premium use of SL (2 Premiums), and, unless I do something wrong, I don't expect to be willfully denied what I pay for., just on somebody's whim.

I have a huge respect for Tommy. He, and some others here, are very likeable people. But his reply didn't satisfy some people, including me. It appeared to change nothing except concerning historical posts, but I realise that he probably feels that he can't share everything with us, even though many of us are paying customers. My hope is that things have changed behind the scenes, but time will tell.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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Posted (edited)

Perhaps a good example of what I mean is my TV, broadband, and phone services. I pay Virgin Media for those. Virgin Media has a forum that I've sometimes used. If I break that forum's rules in a big way, they would probably ban me from it, but they would not cut any of my services off, not even for a few hours or a few days, because I pay them for those.

SL and this forum are no different, and yet this forum has cut people off from the service they pay for, when they haven't done anything wrong, let alone done anything wrong in a big way. I am a paying customer of both companies. I pay LL a lot less than I pay Virgin Media, but that doesn't make any difference. By all means, cut people off from the forum when they break the forum rules, but don't cut people off from the service they pay for, even when they break the forum rules, and especially when they don't. I'm hoping that we've seen the last of that practise.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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Posted (edited)

I don't post as frequently as some here, but I've been a member of this forum for a very long time and I totally agree with Pam!

Although I often teeter the line of what's acceptable at times - I never cross it, because I know when to pull back and not push things to the point of no return. We're all adults here and should know by now how to control our tempers and not take things to such extremes that would result in either getting a warning or being banned all together.

Edited by Kristen Beornssen
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I don't think anyone would disagree with what you said, Kristen, but there are two things you forgot. One is what happens when the line isn't crossed, and the main one is being suspended not just from the forum, but also from SL, for both forum misdemeanours and when no lines are crossed. The thread was about that main one, but the first one came into it along the way. It's not about holding back from crossing the line. You can't do that when you don't where the line is drawn today.

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Moderators are human. Moderators are the arbiters or what does and does not cross a line in a forum - not the end user.

If you are uncomfortable with the way moderation in any particular forum is handled ... Do not use that forum.

The only valid point in this entire thread has been that linking a forum ban to a global account ban should be reserved for the most egregious of offenses.

If you're afraid you might end up on the wrong end of that particular hammer at some point ... Use a different forum.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Moderators are human. Moderators are the arbiters or what does and does not cross a line in a forum - not the end user.

Employed Moderators are not the arbitors of what does and doesn't cross the line. The rules are. Moderators are employed to enforce the rules, not to invent them, except, perhaps, in exceptional circumstances. Moderators decide whether or not something has broken the rules, but they don't create rules as they go along - not unless it's their forum, that is.

If you are uncomfortable with the way moderation in any particular forum is handled ... Do not use that forum.

I can't disagree with that.

The only valid point in this entire thread has been that linking a forum ban to a global account ban should be reserved for the most egregious of offenses.

That's exactly why I started the thread. It was my only point at the start. The 'line' came into it much later.

If you're afraid you might end up on the wrong end of that particular hammer at some point ... Use a different forum.

It's not that I am afraid of ending up on the wrong end of that partiucular hammer. It is that I HAVE ended up on the wrong end of that particular "global" hammer, and for doing nothing that breached the forum rules or guidelines. And I know that I'm not the only one.

 

Edited by Phil Deakins

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1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

I don't think anyone would disagree with what you said, Kristen, but there are two things you forgot. One is what happens when the line isn't crossed, and the main one is being suspended not just from the forum, but also from SL, for both forum misdemeanours and when no lines are crossed. The thread was about that main one, but the first one came into it along the way. It's not about holding back from crossing the line. You can't do that when you don't where the line is drawn today.

Just a question Phil..

Besides you and BilliJo, who else has been effected by this (banned from the forum and SL)? 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Kristen Beornssen said:

Besides you and BilliJo, who else has been effected by this (banned from the forum and SL)? 

I don't know, Kristen. I can't imagine that it's only been BJ and me though, and it did happen to BJ several times. The most recent time, was what sparked this thread, although I don't know what she'd written in the past that caused the most recent suspension from SL. Oddly, she wasn't even suspended from the forum for it, so it can't have been much.

Anyway, I think this thread has been done to death now. I don't like keeping on about these things, especially since the topic is critical of the moderation, and I do like most of the moderators. I do have some firm views, but I've said my piece(s) enough now. So I'm done with it.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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Posted (edited)

Sorry Phil, forum Moderators are the Arbiters of the Rules, like it or not.

You may think that some of their recent actions were taken without a single rule having been so much as bumped along the way - those who did take action would tell you otherwise if they wished to explain their actions to you (which they are under no obligation to do).

Other Moderators and the Administrators are the only ones who can disagree and have that disagreement stick. Their opinions in the end are the ones that matter. Not your's and not mine.

This is not the first time this has happened here and it will not be the last.

You can tread as carefully as possible, questioning over the proper channels when/where applicable (or even if you are able) but like it or not in the end the general user base has no say in how the rules are interpreted or enforced.

The fact that this thread has not yet been locked and you have not had any action taken against your account yet shows this in spades: So far the Moderation team members that may have viewed this thread have not felt that you have violated the rules despite there being a rule concerning discussion of Moderation actions and such.

I can think of at least one poster here that has managed to avoid action being taken despite seemingly being in violation of the rules - the Moderation team obviously thinks otherwise.

In short: Like it or not the cold, hard fact is that the Moderation and Administration teams decide what is and is not in violation of the rules. If they make a mistake they may or may not own up to it and correct it but at the end of the day ... Our opinions on what does and does not follow the forum rules are worth less than nothing.

With that, I'm pretty much done with the topic at hand.

Edited by Solar Legion
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Sorry, Solar, but I'm done with this thread. We agree on its topic (in the first post), so I'll settle for that :)

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33 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Employed Moderators are not the arbitors of what does and doesn't cross the line. The rules are. Moderators are employed to enforce the rules, not to invent them, except, perhaps, in exceptional circumstances. Moderators decide whether or not something has broken the rules, but they don't create rules as they go along - not unless it's their forum, that is.

The real issue is that the rule are arbitrary. What one mod considers harassing may not be what another does, the same applies to inappropriate content. What my MIL considers swearing is so much more strict than my opinion. There really is no way to list each and every scenario for each rule. Which is why they have Moderators to interpret them. 

And your comment about BJ in my opinion was wildly inappropriate. 

On 4/11/2018 at 9:58 AM, Phil Deakins said:

There is no love lost between BilliJo and me, and my preference is that she doesn't come back to the forum

 

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