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Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kitsune Shan said:

Yes that's it. But they have also added extra channels but you can't alpha them so they are pretty much useless.

Okay, I understand now. So, and this is just me being curious LOL - what would you use those extra channels for if system layers can handle the basics? And it's okay to not give away your ideas, I know friends who keep their ideas close to the vest so not to inadvertently create competition before release. :) (and it's okay to not answer, I know this is really supposed to feedback for Linden Lab - so I'll be quiet now, just thinking aloud)  :)

Edited by Alyona Su

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10 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

what would you use those extra channels for if system layers can handle the basics?

Oh, don't worry about giving out ideas lol. There is not much mistery here about their use. Basically, you can use them for whatever you want, even for a shirt or skirt. Of course, these would be a very stupid move. Why would anyone change texture of their shirt by applying different "skins"? Not to mention that as soon as you wear something that uses the same texture, you would end with the shirt texture on some pants or who knows what. As I see these, their better use it's for the avatar itself. You could just have more than three textures per avatar in case that you wear some kind of special avatar that requires more than the default one or simply to add extra resolution to a common human one. This isn't either a good idea because, eventho you now have slots for left_arm and left_leg (seriously, who though we needed an extra for a leg? we always had these two separated lol), these are just simple names given to them because you can't use these for an arm and a leg at all since they don't support alpha masks textures. Imagine wearing a mesh avatar where you now have a completely asymetrical left arm thanks to bake on mesh new slots but you can't wear shirts or T-shirts because you won't be able to mask any part of it. You can mask your right arm tho lol...

So that's it. bake on mesh it's nice, and could be great but only if done correctly and not just half unfinished like some other features we got. If we had a new alpha mask that allows to hide all the new texture slots, we could have great avatars. But as it stands right now, if you use the extra ones, you may need to rely on dividing your mesh body into hundreds of parts to hide through scripts which also means that you may require a quite high poly avatar to be able to create enough alpha masking zones and, on top of that, add laggy scripts for something that wouldn't have be necessary to start.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/16/2019 at 3:39 PM, Rathgrith027 said:

BoM is in the Release Candidate stage, meaning the versions of BoM in development right now are feature complete and with the exception of a few bugs, ready to be pushed (added) to the main grid. Once the last of the big kinks are sorted, We *should* see a release announcement at the end of May if not sometime in June if there are no major problems with the RC.

However, It'll take longer for TPVs to add this code to their viewers, probably at least 2 weeks.

Sounds good!!!!! Let the magic began. I think little birdy said in be some time in june guess we will have to wait and see. 

Edited by Vanoralynna

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20 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

It is my understanding (anyone: please correct me if I'm wrong) that the primary benefit of bakes on mesh will be that I can wear the old system layers (a.k.a. "System clothes for classic avatars") and they will then bake through the server (the way they still do for system avatars) and that baked texture appears on the mesh body and head.

In short: turning mesh bodies and head into "classic avatars" ability to wear system clothing and skin and *tattoos*, etc. No need for alpha anything. No need to onion-skin layers in the mesh (which are here to stay and so I hope creators will release two versions: Onion-skin layers and no-layers BOM version.) If I don't want the tattoo I don't "alpha" that layer, I just take it off. (Un-wear it)

I believe the primary benefit of BOM is the reduction in texture usage for avatars, leading into better viewer performance.

As others and myself have pointed out, old textures don't really work for current mesh avatars because the UV layout is not exactly the same, which shows up as misaligned nails, nips, and seams. Old textures are also 512x512, not the new maximum of 1024x1024. Being able to wear your old system layers is a side-effect seen as a benefit, but it was not the primary intention.

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On 6/4/2019 at 12:28 AM, Kitsune Shan said:

I really don't know why their alphas would mix. If the layer on bottom it's opaque or have certain alpha, it should remain despite of the layer added on top. If you were to wear a layer on top of, for example, a shirt in which you would add some semi-transparent shadows for depth purpose, you would get transparent results on them.

I can see this causing issues. Is this a bug?

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12 hours ago, Kitsune Shan said:

As I see these, their better use it's for the avatar itself

I agree. I just want to wear my "water droplets" wet look over my tattoo without the fighting alpha layers LOL

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4 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I believe the primary benefit of BOM is the reduction in texture usage for avatars, leading into better viewer performance.

As others and myself have pointed out, old textures don't really work for current mesh avatars because the UV layout is not exactly the same, which shows up as misaligned nails, nips, and seams. Old textures are also 512x512, not the new maximum of 1024x1024. Being able to wear your old system layers is a side-effect seen as a benefit, but it was not the primary intention.

If BOM supporting creators are just going to include new system layers then why bother? May as well use appliers. I also should clarify I couldn't care less about BOM on anything other than the mesh body and mesh head. I just want to wear my skin, my Tattoo layer, underwear layer, and clothing layer (all old style *system layers) and not wear anything mesh for clothing. The same way it was before mesh bodies cme along.

This has always been my understanding of how it is supposed to work (in this scenario, anyway,) based on LL description: I can wear my old "system clothing" and it is baked by the server and that baked image is them "applied" to the mesh body. I am no technical guru, but deductive reasoning says that means there must be some way to *map* the SL UV to whatever UV the mesh uses.

If this is all a big misunderstanding on my part then LL can take BOM and toss it into the toilet and flush three times to be sure, for all I care. LOL

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26 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

As others and myself have pointed out, old textures don't really work for current mesh avatars because the UV layout is not exactly the same, which shows up as misaligned nails, nips, and seams.

and where would one get these new UV layouts for the newer avatars?  I haven't seen any around.. all I can find are the old ones I have been using since day one..

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31 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

If BOM supporting creators are just going to include new system layers then why bother? May as well use appliers. I also should clarify I couldn't care less about BOM on anything other than the mesh body and mesh head. I just want to wear my skin, my Tattoo layer, underwear layer, and clothing layer (all old style *system layers) and not wear anything mesh for clothing. The same way it was before mesh bodies cme along.

This has always been my understanding of how it is supposed to work (in this scenario, anyway,) based on LL description: I can wear my old "system clothing" and it is baked by the server and that baked image is them "applied" to the mesh body. I am no technical guru, but deductive reasoning says that means there must be some way to *map* the SL UV to whatever UV the mesh uses.

If this is all a big misunderstanding on my part then LL can take BOM and toss it into the toilet and flush three times to be sure, for all I care. LOL

You can use old system layer as long as the avatars uses the exact same system avatar UVs which in this case, mesh avatars don't. You can get them somewhat "working" but mesh avatars have slightly different UVs so things wont work on all cases. For example, Bellezas doesn't even use the same textures for feet and hands so it's completely impossible. I am making myself a mesh body solely for BOM and getting the exact same SL UVs. But this doesn't either means that everything will work. Skin creators had this crazy idea of placing nipples out of the default position. On the default avatar this wasn't a huge issue because nipples weren't there on the mesh but on a mesh avatar isn't the case so you can end with missplaced nipples if using old skins. This isn't a big issue if you dont mind about it and will always wear something to cover them. System clothes works perfectly fine tho as these just need to fit properly between the seams.

3 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

and where would one get these new UV layouts for the newer avatars?  I haven't seen any around.. all I can find are the old ones I have been using since day one..

I guess on each skin dev kit for each mesh body should be included a skin template with their UVs.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

and where would one get these new UV layouts for the newer avatars?  I haven't seen any around.. all I can find are the old ones I have been using since day one..

Newer avatars? They are irrelevant. It is the System avatar ("New Shape") UV that is and always has been the same since the very beginning.

Detach *everything*, Take off all system layers, including Alphas, tattoo, shirt, pants, skirt, physics, all of it. What you are left with is the System Avatar. This is the avatar I am referring to. The one you wore long before mesh anything ever arrived in SL.

Edited by Alyona Su

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

If BOM supporting creators are just going to include new system layers then why bother? May as well use appliers. I also should clarify I couldn't care less about BOM on anything other than the mesh body and mesh head. I just want to wear my skin, my Tattoo layer, underwear layer, and clothing layer (all old style *system layers) and not wear anything mesh for clothing. The same way it was before mesh bodies cme along.

This has always been my understanding of how it is supposed to work (in this scenario, anyway,) based on LL description: I can wear my old "system clothing" and it is baked by the server and that baked image is them "applied" to the mesh body. I am no technical guru, but deductive reasoning says that means there must be some way to *map* the SL UV to whatever UV the mesh uses.

If this is all a big misunderstanding on my part then LL can take BOM and toss it into the toilet and flush three times to be sure, for all I care. LOL

2 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Newer avatars? They are irrelevant. It is the System avatar ("New Shape") UV that is and always has been the same since the very beginning.

Detach *everything*, Take off all system layers, including Alphas, tattoo, shirt, pants, skirt, physics, all of it. What you are left with is the System Avatar. This is the avatar I am referring to. The one you wore long before mesh anything ever arrived in SL.

You can certainly wear all your old system layers, including system clothing layers, and have them show up on your mesh avatar. That's how it works and it's a personal choice. But, all of the mesh avatars I'm aware of have distinctly pronounced nips/vag, so those would stay very noticeable "under" your system layers. It'd make for a very convincing naked full-body-paint look.

But again, see: https://community.secondlife.com/knowledgebase/english/bakes-on-mesh-r1512/
 http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Project_BakesOnMesh/5.1.3.513936

Quote

Benefits

  • Avoid the need for appliers -> easier customization workflow
  • Avoid the need for onion avatars -> fewer meshes, fewer textures at display time
  • Avoid the need to sell full-perm meshes. You can customize any mesh you have modify permissions for simply by setting the flags and equipping the appropriate wearables.

At no point in that project page are the "old/legacy system layers or content" mentioned as a benefit or as of importance.

Also, no, you cannot "map the SL UV to another UV." (Okay you kinda can, but more on that..) The mesh is what contains the UV (or "texture layout") information and it's practically impossible to get the UV mapping exactly matched on two different mesh models. You can get close by having your model overlap another in Blender, then "transferring UV maps," but this is only an approximation because it compares the closest points of the model, even if they are far apart from each other, which causes unavoidable alignment/stretching issues that get worse the more different the two models are.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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35 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

At no point in that project page are the "old/legacy system layers or content" mentioned as a benefit or as of importance.

Certainly, and I did mention I may have misunderstood the descriptions (because I'm not technonerd LOL) :)

Well, I'll scratch BOM off my "highly-anticiapted" list and move it to my "meh; wait-and-see" list. Which leaves only name-change and the only thing left to be ecited about (even if it takes another year).

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10 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

As others and myself have pointed out, old textures don't really work for current mesh avatars because the UV layout is not exactly the same,

These are my experiments, in the first head is the first experiment I did - I used an under eye concealer layer, cause the eye bags were off, but the other avatar that I tested, the skins fit very well (the other 3 pics). But as noted, nails wont align well, especially feet.

32293368_1859046641056130_3323346909396992_n.jpg

59549005_2080183018942490_7458738904582062080_n.jpg

59615192_2080182868942505_4654118018979201024_n.jpg

59644532_2080182855609173_4025625374267277312_n.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Some of the mesh creators need the hint to update the uv maping this would be the time to do it. People are excited about baked on mesh I have tested back in April good more magic. Skin makers and mesh body maker and head makers should get on it before the release things may need to be fixed the creators and makers should get the release so they can be ready when all this comes out. 

Edited by Vanoralynna

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50 minutes ago, Vanoralynna said:

Some of the mesh creators need the hint to update the uv maping this would be the time to do it. People are excited about baked on mesh I have tested back in April good more magic. Skin makers and mesh body maker and head makers should get on it before the release things may need to be fixed the creators and makers should get the release so they can be ready when all this comes out. 

There is no way that you can even begin to think that all the mesh body/head makers can make all their creations match each other. That would defeat the whole purpose of having different bodies and heads. They are different. Stop thinking that BoM is going to make anything one size fits all. You're just going to have to deal with it the same way all the mesh clothing creators have to deal with it now. The time to have one UV that actually matched ended with the first mesh body creation. That ship sailed a long time ago and it's never coming back to port.  

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Vanoralynna said:

Some of the mesh creators need the hint to update the uv maping this would be the time to do it. People are excited about baked on mesh I have tested back in April good more magic. Skin makers and mesh body maker and head makers should get on it before the release things may need to be fixed the creators and makers should get the release so they can be ready when all this comes out. 

If creators were to adjust the UV mapping of their bodies to work seamlessly with BOM, all of the existing appliers would start having issues instead.

"But what about having a separate BOM body?" said the Strawman. To that I say "Why didn't the creators make onion layers separate from the body? BOM would've probably never come around if that was the default MO."

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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9 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

There is no way that you can even begin to think that all the mesh body/head makers can make all their creations match each other. That would defeat the whole purpose of having different bodies and heads. They are different. Stop thinking that BoM is going to make anything one size fits all. You're just going to have to deal with it the same way all the mesh clothing creators have to deal with it now. The time to have one UV that actually matched ended with the first mesh body creation. That ship sailed a long time ago and it's never coming back to port.  

It's perfectly possible to do it and it wouldn't defeat the purpose of having different bodies and heads. You are mixing here UVs with meshes shapes. You can have completely different mesh bodies and still have the same UVs. We all know that it wont happen simply because they wont get the time and effort on creating an alternative bake on mesh version but that does not meant that would be impossible to do.

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2 hours ago, Kitsune Shan said:

It's perfectly possible to do it and it wouldn't defeat the purpose of having different bodies and heads. You are mixing here UVs with meshes shapes. You can have completely different mesh bodies and still have the same UVs. We all know that it wont happen simply because they wont get the time and effort on creating an alternative bake on mesh version but that does not meant that would be impossible to do.

There already is an updated standard UV for human mesh avatars - it's the Omega system. Most of the major bodies support it at one level or another. A skin made using the textures people have made for their Omega appliers will be exactly as compatible as the appliers themselves are.

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2 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

There already is an updated standard UV for human mesh avatars - it's the Omega system. Most of the major bodies support it at one level or another. A skin made using the textures people have made for their Omega appliers will be exactly as compatible as the appliers themselves are.

This also perfectly demonstrates that it's not really possible in practice to have two different bodies that both support the same UV layout equally.

On 6/5/2019 at 11:07 PM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

You can get close by having your model overlap another in Blender, then "transferring UV maps," but this is only an approximation because it compares the closest points of the model, even if they are far apart from each other, which causes unavoidable alignment/stretching issues that get worse the more different the two models are.

Super easy example: Find an Omega applier that works perfectly for Maitreya or Belleza. Then try it on the other body and look at the toes. You won't find a texture that works for both at the same time.

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Just now, Wulfie Reanimator said:

This also perfectly demonstrates that it's not really possible in practice to have two different bodies that both support the same UV layout equally.

Super easy example: Find an Omega applier that works perfectly for Maitreya or Belleza. Then try it on the other body and look at the toes. You won't find a texture that works for both at the same time.

Yes you will, because Omega appliers don't have toe shading.

Besides...

Theresa Tennyson tries to figure out how to write a macro saying, "Toes will never work out of the box but are easy to fix" and fails.

Anyway, what I just said (probably half-a-dozen times already.)

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13 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Yes you will, because Omega appliers don't have toe shading.

Besides...

Theresa Tennyson tries to figure out how to write a macro saying, "Toes will never work out of the box but are easy to fix" and fails.

Anyway, what I just said (probably half-a-dozen times already.)

There's a lot of repeating ourselves from a lot of sides, including me literally quoting myself, lol.

Inevitable after 30 pages on any subject.

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11 hours ago, Kitsune Shan said:

It's perfectly possible to do it and it wouldn't defeat the purpose of having different bodies and heads. You are mixing here UVs with meshes shapes. You can have completely different mesh bodies and still have the same UVs. We all know that it wont happen simply because they wont get the time and effort on creating an alternative bake on mesh version but that does not meant that would be impossible to do.

I'm not mixing up anything. I have made applier seamed stockings for bodies for a very long time. At first I made them for several bodies and the headache of getting those seams to match at the ankle quickly made me decide it just wasn't worth the the time invested, so I dropped all but one body. It's just impossible for two different creators, no matter how superior their skills, to perfectly match up that UV map so that they all match. I know they all use the same map. That's not the issue. The issue is that you have different people stretching that same map across their mesh and they don't line up perfectly with one another. Sure in some instances it doesn't really matter but there are many, many instances when it does. We will continue to have to adjust our textures to work with different bodies or have mismatched seams, nipples, navels, and the like.

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9 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

There already is an updated standard UV for human mesh avatars - it's the Omega system. Most of the major bodies support it at one level or another. A skin made using the textures people have made for their Omega appliers will be exactly as compatible as the appliers themselves are.

No sweety, Omega is NOT an updated UV standard. Omega was meant to use the default SL layout as an universal script applier so all the mesh bodies could use the same textures as skin. But they feailed pretty hard since these mesh bodies have different UVs meaning that they do not match between them at all. Anyway as I said, Omega is an unified scritp applier, not an UV set. Mesh bodies haven't "Omega UVs" they just use their own UVs and wether you use Omega or each body applier makes no difference on the UVs.

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Just now, Kitsune Shan said:

No sweety, Omega is NOT an updated UV standard. Omega was meant to use the default SL layout as an universal script applier so all the mesh bodies could use the same textures as skin. But they feailed pretty hard since these mesh bodies have different UVs meaning that they do not match between them at all. Anyway as I said, Omega is an unified scritp applier, not an UV set. Mesh bodies haven't "Omega UVs" they just use their own UVs and wether you use Omega or each body applier makes no difference on the UVs.

Then what are these, dollface?

http://slpoweredbyomega.com/learning-center/what-is-omega/faq/uvlist/

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