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Alexa Linden

Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

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35 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I can guarantee there won't be constants for the bake UUIDs, because.. they're not. The UUID for avatar bakes change every time they are updated.

Like someone said earlier in this thread, at best we'll probably get a primitive-parameter for bake type on a face.

Didn't Omega make some kind of a free applier already, or am I thinking that up? I've no idea how that was achieved if that's the case, I can't find any documentation on the scripting.

Bakes-On-Mesh uses specific textures that the viewer replaces with the various textures of the avatar bake. The textures that the viewer replaces have UUID's like any other texture and therefore they can be applied to a surface like any other texture. That's how the various appliers already out work.

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3 hours ago, SoniaVileva said:

Are these "BAKE_HEAD, BAKE_UPPER, BAKE_LOWER, BAKE_EYES, BAKE_SKIRT, BAKE_HAIR" texture UUID variables that we can access programmatically to apply texture to any wearable mesh ?

We will be adding these as constants in LSL, so you can use them in setting texture ids for mesh faces.

As Wulfie notes above, the baking service generates new textures each time. However, those aren't the values that are stored for bakes on mesh. Instead, we store certain "magic" values that the viewer interprets as "use the current baked texture here". So that's why it's possible to define reusable constants that can be accessed in LSL.

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Please let us have some generic texture baking calls from LSL too.

llSetTexture(llTextureBake([texture1,texture2]),0);

 

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Just now, CoffeeDujour said:

Please let us have some generic texture baking calls from LSL too.

Maybe at some point, but we won't be doing any kind of bake API for the initial release.

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49 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Bakes-On-Mesh uses specific textures that the viewer replaces with the various textures of the avatar bake. The textures that the viewer replaces have UUID's like any other texture and therefore they can be applied to a surface like any other texture. That's how the various appliers already out work.

I still don't quite understand the behavior here.  I understand that before Bakes-On-Mesh, UUIDs were used to identified baked texture to viewers such that viewers can load the correct textures from server correctly. But the UUIDs is not accessible to users.

Since appliers can already use Bakes-On-Mesh feature, I assume this can be done programmatically already.  My question is that what do they use to obtain the UUID, and what is the behavior of the content that this UUID points to. i.e. if I add a tattoo, will I get a new UUID? or the content of the UUID points to get changed?

I probably don't get it quite right, or I am missing something obvious. Please kindly help.

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5 hours ago, Vir Linden said:

We will be adding these as constants in LSL, so you can use them in setting texture ids for mesh faces.

As Wulfie notes above, the baking service generates new textures each time. However, those aren't the values that are stored for bakes on mesh. Instead, we store certain "magic" values that the viewer interprets as "use the current baked texture here". So that's why it's possible to define reusable constants that can be accessed in LSL.

Since appliers can do this already, can I assume that these magic values although undocumented, but already been deduced and that is how appliers can do it now?

 

 

Edited by SoniaVileva

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1 hour ago, Vir Linden said:
1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Please let us have some generic texture baking calls from LSL too.



llSetTexture(llTextureBake([texture1,texture2]),0);

Maybe at some point, but we won't be doing any kind of bake API for the initial release.

This would be incredibly awesome.

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6 hours ago, Vir Linden said:

Maybe at some point, but we won't be doing any kind of bake API for the initial release.

This is the worst news I've seen in a while. This means the applier marketplace will be further fragmented, inventories will be filled with unusable items, and people will have a lot of extra work to do to figure out how to find content that works for their chosen mesh body parts. Considering the main consideration for all LL's feature updates has been to avoid breaking any content, this is basically breaking the entire market that it affects, since it's not really possible to utilize the technology as intended (eliminating onion skins) while maintaining compatibility with any existing applier content.

I thought this point had been made to the extent that it didn't really need to be discussed further. Could you explain the thought process behind this decision? The API is too difficult, or just doesn't seem important? Something else?

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7 hours ago, Mel Vanbeeck said:

This is the worst news I've seen in a while. This means the applier marketplace will be further fragmented, inventories will be filled with unusable items, and people will have a lot of extra work to do to figure out how to find content that works for their chosen mesh body parts. Considering the main consideration for all LL's feature updates has been to avoid breaking any content, this is basically breaking the entire market that it affects, since it's not really possible to utilize the technology as intended (eliminating onion skins) while maintaining compatibility with any existing applier content.

I thought this point had been made to the extent that it didn't really need to be discussed further. Could you explain the thought process behind this decision? The API is too difficult, or just doesn't seem important? Something else?

The point had been made to the extent that it didn't really need to be discussed farther. The point being,"the two systems are fundamentally incompatible on a technical level and nobody's even come up with a working roadmap on how to make them compatible." Vir's been saying that for months.

When compact discs were introduced my dad said that he wasn't going to buy one until they came out with one that played LP's as well. As the process of playing back music by reading the vibrations of a diamond stylus in a groove are fundamentally different from the process of playing back music by decoding a series of digital pulses by bouncing a laser beam off a metal-plated surface, a single player that would do both wasn't likely to happen. (My mom wouldn't let us get cable TV because she said it would mean she wouldn't ever get taken out to movies again. If I'm a bit retro I come by it naturally.)

Nonetheless, I can still play my LP's on my turntable today despite the music market largely changing to CD's, then to digital downloads, and now to the point that many people don't own individual music units at all but simply access them from a subscription service.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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I'm slightly confused on the uuid bakes on issue.

To clarify:

There isn't a way to assign an uuid to a slot (head/torso/eye/aux etc) using existing data/lsl?  Wasn't there a clothing script that did just this?

 

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So I got on the project viewer for the first time (I know) to actually get some first-hand experiences and clear up some things (like the applier thing), but as soon as I did a little test with a basic prim cube, I got an idea that I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned on the forum (maybe for a reason, maybe not).

What about stealing textures? Applying the bare skin-bake onto a cube revealed all the unused space to be covered in "do not steal" and other copyright/website info. I'm no fool to the reality of assets on SL, but this is kind of a step further down.

Still no idea how the script is working.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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59 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

So I got on the project viewer for the first time (I know) to actually get some first-hand experiences and clear up some things (like the applier thing), but as soon as I did a little test with a basic prim cube, I got an idea that I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned on the forum (maybe for a reason, maybe not).

What about stealing textures? Applying the bare skin-bake onto a cube revealed all the unused space to be covered in "do not steal" and other copyright/website info. I'm no fool to the reality of assets on SL, but this is kind of a step further down.

If you look through these posts it has already been mentioned. The "texture on a cube" is a rather clunky way of "stealing" a texture that you already own. You could already do that several other, better ways. Personally I think that bakes shouldn't be allowed to be used on HUD's as a form of "suitcase lock" to make it look less easy to copy them, but if someone really wants to rip that texture they will.

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51 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If you look through these posts it has already been mentioned. The "texture on a cube" is a rather clunky way of "stealing" a texture that you already own. You could already do that several other, better ways. Personally I think that bakes shouldn't be allowed to be used on HUD's as a form of "suitcase lock" to make it look less easy to copy them, but if someone really wants to rip that texture they will.

Ignore me then I guess, but like I said, I'm aware and I know better than to get into the subject too deeply.
There's also a loooong off-topic discussion that could be had about what is and isn't stealing.

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Once anyone has the BOM UUID’s, that’s it. Simple. Couldn’t be easier. Funny that it’s usually explained so poorly that people have to ask for multiple explanations.

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I have asked one of my alts aunts to do some demonstrations on the benefits and limitations of Bakes On Mesh. All these photos were taken in an empty region on the Beta grid with conditions kept as consistent as possible.

Here's my aunt the way she generally looks under her clothes - system body with mesh hands, feet, hair and jewelry and heavy-duty system foundations to get her into a standard size. Framerate is in the neighborhood of 125-130 under these conditions:

BOM1.thumb.png.9c2ea4221cac7620be4a624d475770cc.png

When she wears a mesh outfit over this the drop in framerate is barely noticeable:

BOM2.thumb.png.8e0e91ee04346ee9ae725cf14a7f2987.png

Now let's see what we get if we want this same look with a mesh body - in this case a Maitreya Lara 4.1 with an alpha-blended lower layer for pantyhose and alpha-masked upper and lower layers above for the foundation. Framerate drops to well under 100 - over a 20% difference:

BOM3.thumb.png.d4b14a8af2250a4e47375ac6cec726e2.png

Now let's look at exactly the same body using Bakes on Mesh to put all the textures on the base level, meaning that the "onion layers" can be turned off. Framerate is still lower than the system body but much higher than the mesh body using the onion layers. Bear in mind that this is exactly the same body which hasn't been optimized for use with Bakes on Mesh:

BOM4.thumb.png.be5c084afdf9c185822791e82578f3f8.png

If you look closely you can see that there's a problem with this particular body setup - it telegraphs the nipples, navel, etc. through the clothes. This is why I've been saying that Bakes on Mesh isn't a good solution for clothes (unless avatars are specifically made to compensate for this by having some of their 3D details able to be hidden.) As a compromise, this picture shows an intermediate setup, with the foundation on a clothing layer and the pantyhose baked with the skin. Still better than using two layers but not as good as using no layers:

BOM5.thumb.png.f55a0a5e9e38d0855c8b1dda2dfdd462.png

(Continued in the next post...)

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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Now here's something that came as a considerable surprise to me. I imagine if you ask most people they'd say that layered clothing has less impact on the viewer than separate worn mesh items. Now look here: This is with the same Maitreya body with a conventional applied texture and no layers turned on (for these shots it was easier to use a body that had been textured with different skin than the ones in the post above but its the same type of body.) With it, my aunt is wearing fairly fancy mesh lingerie - alpha blended, separate negligee and panty, and boudoir mules with little 3D puffs because that's the way she rolls. Still, the framerate's over 100:

LINGERIE1.thumb.png.27032facda9c1c803aded9d2cfb27a6a.png

Now let's take a look at a "lower impact" look - no mesh lingerie or shoes, but with one alpha-blended upper and lower layer visible. The framerate's actually lower than with the mesh clothing - it isn't even close:LINGERIE2.thumb.png.e39a1b3652448eb80c363b4434dc97c4.png

Even if Bakes on Mesh only eliminates the use of tattoo and makeup layers it should be a major help. This isn't even looking at the possibility of getting rid of alpha HUD's yet.

 

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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On ‎05‎.‎08‎.‎2018 at 6:49 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

I have asked one of my alts aunts to do some demonstrations on the benefits and limitations of Bakes On Mesh.

Very much work there, to inform us. Kudos!

I think I saw my first BoM face in L'Etre yesterday. A sharply dressed avatar with his face a mishmash of colors in a strange pattern.

So I wonder, if I try this viewer and the Omega thing, do I need to clean my avatar when I log into Firestorm again? Set all to default and use apply every thing?

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19 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Very much work there, to inform us. Kudos!

I think I saw my first BoM face in L'Etre yesterday. A sharply dressed avatar with his face a mishmash of colors in a strange pattern.

So I wonder, if I try this viewer and the Omega thing, do I need to clean my avatar when I log into Firestorm again? Set all to default and use apply every thing?

Yes. 

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37 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Yes. 

Thanks. So I need to find out just what I'm wearing in appliers if I try it. So I can put myself together after.

Edit to add: It will be much easier to see what I'm wearing when I have it as layers. Sometimes I have no idea what brand the eyebrows or other makeup is.

Edited by Marianne Little

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1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

Thanks. So I need to find out just what I'm wearing in appliers if I try it. So I can put myself together after.

Edit to add: It will be much easier to see what I'm wearing when I have it as layers. Sometimes I have no idea what brand the eyebrows or other makeup is.

You could just create a copy of your current mesh body, that way you won't have to worry about reapplying all of your stuff again. 

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4 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Very much work there, to inform us. Kudos!

I think I saw my first BoM face in L'Etre yesterday. A sharply dressed avatar with his face a mishmash of colors in a strange pattern.

So I wonder, if I try this viewer and the Omega thing, do I need to clean my avatar when I log into Firestorm again? Set all to default and use apply every thing?

I would also strongly encourage you to do all your testing and experimenting on the Beta grid. Not only does it save having to reset things on the main grid and keeps your main account safe from glitches, the "baking service" on the Beta grid already sends the bakes at 1024 x 1024 resolution so many things look better than they will on the main grid.

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Hi. I found this when I was going quietly nuts with a mesh body (I've only just got my first) trying to work out how to get two tattoos and downloaded the test viewer, got the applier, and asked linden to enable me for the beta grid. And went there and tried it.

It is quite wonderful (and I only had one false start at getting it working which is nothing short of miraculous for me). And thank you Linden family for the work you're putting in on this.

One thing that is a bit worrying though - the feet and hands look strange if they're mesh (Slink if that is relevant). You get the nails from your system layer skin and also from the mesh versions, and if you wear system gloves/stockings the mesh finger/toenails still come above them (and I rather like being able to paint my toenails, which I couldn't till I got a mesh body). Is this being looked at?

Hugs

Edited by Hilary Querrien

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21 minutes ago, Hilary Querrien said:

Hi. I found this when I was going quietly nuts with a mesh body (I've only just got my first) trying to work out how to get two tattoos and downloaded the test viewer, got the applier, and asked linden to enable me for the beta grid. And went there and tried it.

It is quite wonderful (and I only had one false start at getting it working which is nothing short of miraculous for me). And thank you Linden family for the work you're putting in on this.

One thing that is a bit worrying though - the feet and hands look strange if they're mesh (Slink if that is relevant). You get the nails from your system layer skin and also from the mesh versions, and if you wear system gloves/stockings the mesh finger/toenails still come above them (and I rather like being able to paint my toenails, which I couldn't till I got a mesh body). Is this being looked at?

Hugs

That comes from the fact that the original maps did not detail the toes in a good manor and the hands were cheated into one arm, on one side.

 

Depending on your mesh model, the feet and hands may have been remapped.

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20 minutes ago, Shnurui Troughton said:

the hands were cheated into one arm, on one side.

What do you mean by this, exactly?

44 minutes ago, Hilary Querrien said:

One thing that is a bit worrying though - the feet and hands look strange if they're mesh (Slink if that is relevant). You get the nails from your system layer skin and also from the mesh versions, and if you wear system gloves/stockings the mesh finger/toenails still come above them (and I rather like being able to paint my toenails, which I couldn't till I got a mesh body). Is this being looked at?

It's only going to get looked at by the creators of those skins/layers/mesh. The BoM feature is working as intended, but since the skin has nails painted directly on it, you'll get two sets of nails (skin and mesh).

You can work around it by wearing a tattoo layer that covers your nails only. Mesh creators will also have to make it possible to hide parts of the mesh, so you can get rid of the mesh nails while wearing gloves as a tattoo layer. (Maitreya does this, for example.)

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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