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Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

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2 hours ago, Chellynne Bailey said:

Now what that means for trying to get multiple maps all into one bake... well that's why I think these things will need to be tied to a diffuse texture to act as an alpha map. Is that something LL can pull off right now? I have clue. x.x

I think can... but the question is will they. 

3 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

And we all know how LL operates. So BoM won't solve onion skinned avatar high complexity for "a time" which won't be short, if we're lucky enough to get them to make a follow up project. Good luck with making appliers for all possible combination of normal maps and specular maps you don't have access to because you don't own them (like the skin, how do you make an applier for all possible skins to be put under your texture garment?)

I know mesh body makers already working on BoM versions of their bodies. We can't know how fast they will release or be adopted. 

While onion skin Bento heads have been rapidly adopted I think that is because the advantages are visible. 'Hey, I look better...'

Lower ACI is certainly influencing sales of stuff. But, there is a harder one to measure. So, will lower ACI non-onion-skin bodies that look the same has onion-skin bodies sell? I doubt anyone knows or has any data to definitively say. Opinion seems to be they will because other lower ACI stuff sells.

Probably a bigger selling point is the reduction in scripts and HUD's. Some HUD's do make things nice and easy. So, dropping them may be a negative. But, I would love a smaller script load and would spend money to get it.

Once BoM is in place and designers are releasing products it will be interesting to come back here and see who had it figured out.

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36 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

I know mesh body makers already working on BoM versions of their bodies. We can't know how fast they will release or be adopted. 

Likely slowly, years if at all. Outside of signature, the body and head makers move like molasses.

TMP never got out of beta. Belleza spent years on bento for female. Belleza Jake for men is still in V1 beta and buggy as anything, I doubt it will be fixed. 

If I strip down my geralt body to the bare minimum it's 10,416. Let's say a Baked-On-Fail body is 2500 (pulling figures from my nose), that tiny saving isn't so important, considering the hundreds of USD I invested in this look.

Feature incomplete, it's going to be a dead duck feature and wanting to rush it out the door, the Lab are just being stubborn. Do it properly, or put the effort into more important things, like EEP and making experiences grid wide.

 

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25 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Likely slowly, years if at all. Outside of signature, the body and head makers move like molasses.

TMP never got out of beta. Belleza spent years on bento for female. Belleza Jake for men is still in V1 beta and buggy as anything, I doubt it will be fixed. 

If I strip down my geralt body to the bare minimum it's 10,416. Let's say a Baked-On-Fail body is 2500 (pulling figures from my nose), that tiny saving isn't so important, considering the hundreds of USD I invested in this look.

Feature incomplete, it's going to be a dead duck feature and wanting to rush it out the door, the Lab are just being stubborn. Do it properly, or put the effort into more important things, like EEP and making experiences grid wide.

 

How many of the "problem" issues have to deal with scripting, layers and alpha HUD's though?

To optimize a mesh avatar for bakes-on-mesh it's largely a matter of removing things - fusing the sections back together and removing some of the shells - for my proposal it's basically removing the tattoo and clothing layers and leaving the underwear layer. The body weights would stay exactly the same, meaning all mesh clothing would still work. Scripting would be radically reduced.

Did you know that your Geralt body is made up of 112 separate meshes right now? And your HUD - well... one-hundred and eighty nine more.

Being conservative, I'd say you could reduce both by 95% and have a body that looks absolutely identical to what you have now.

You've mentioned all of your specular and normal trim. I certainly hope you don't decide to wear a tattoo right now then, because it's going to float above all of your material detailing, and probably have chunks taken out of it if you wear long hair or anything sheer over it. If it was baked onto the diffuse layer, though, it would be a true part of your skin like in real life and all the texture and shine of your body would flow over it naturally.

As far as "putting the effort into more important things" - as far as I can tell the whole project is being done by one person working part time and there's no guarantee that the skills needed for this project are the same as those other projects.

What you're saying is, "Don't waste your time fixing the road - we need an airport!" Well, not fixing the road won't do much to hurry the airport along, and in fact fixing the road will make working on airport easier when it happens.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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12 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

know mesh body makers already working on BoM versions of their bodies. We can't know how fast they will release or be adopted.

i know them too, and you know what? they only care about selling and getting your money giving you what you blindly ask, regardless of that being good or bad for the platform. They don't care, as shown by the adoption of high poly count meshes (instead of optimizing them) and with their LoDs policies to game the system to appear "professional" with high surface smoothness at apparently no higher LI/Complexity cost. So if the assumption is that if those individuals adopt BoM, it means it is good, please realize that they only want "to be first" and sell more before all the others.

Edited by OptimoMaximo
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I wonder who already sees all the funny threads coming, because you know, they will be there ... all those "why is my lingerie worn over my jacket?" and more hilarities.

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21 hours ago, Fionalein said:

 ... all those "why is my lingerie worn over my jacket?" and more hilarities.

xD Isn't that a style these days?

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Hello!

I amglad to say that EXMACHINA body is ready for baked mesh, we are also close to launch a beta testing program to select which scripts to keep and which not (our is a very low lag system so the matter is about which options to keep not how to make it light)

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I guess I need someone to tell me what this means for me. Currently I have TONS of clothing that I purchased BEFORE I started using a belleza mesh body. Im not sure if you are calling those bodies onions or jellies or what the heck. So please USE non-geek speak.

I want to know IF this new "baked" on is going to let me use all my old clothing and skins (the clothing/skins I used with a "classic" avatar body) on my belleza body? I think not as I think I read "set to baked" once when you create. Which would mean everything I own would for the second time become obsolete. and I might be okay with that if it fixes the problem of some things work for classic avatar, somethings only for the mesh bodies we wear over the classic avatar. And too many things for one mesh body and none for the others.

What I wish is that you guys update the system (classic) avatar so it has a lovely rendered form. For example, get rid of cankles. Single most reason I went with a mesh body was so I could have NICE toes and NO cankles. I decided to go with a mesh head because the skins look so much nicer on a LAQ head for example, than on the standard mesh body. Even arms and legs become less deformed than the classic does when bending, sitting, etc.

It really IS ridiculous that I have to put a mesh body over my mesh body in order to look nice. Id at least like my clothing and skins to work with both.

Currently I feel like consumers are getting raked over the coals by creators. For example I purchase a nice head and it has a lovely face and NO BODY SKIN. Now I have to go find a new skin so I can have a match between the head and the body. But skin makers are becoming exclusive to some mesh body/head makers and excluding others. I can no longer have the face I want with the head/body I want.

Its enough to make me want to throw out the mesh heads and bodies and go back to classic. BUT WAIT FOR IT. The same skin designers who make skins that could easily be included for system avatars are no longer including them. This is done to force holdouts to go to a mesh body just to get a nice skin.

NO it does not take a lot of time to make a classic skin. I make skins for myself. Pop it in your applier and save it for system. But doing that wont force consumers to purchase mesh bodies.

I want to purchase a skin, use it on my system, (bake it if thats how you want to do it) I dont care. but I also want that skin to be applicable to any mesh head/body/feet/hands I might be wearing over my standard avatar body.

And as a struggling creator (still playing catchup from the last big whoop) Id like to make it once and have it applicable to all as well. Its insane to have to remodel things for every new mesh avatar that comes out. Plus I see some great bodies come out but get no support from skin or clothing creators because the BIG THREE (or four) mesh body/head creators have co-opted the best skin/clothing designers to create for them exclusively. Whether that has been a purposeful collusion or accidental I dont know. But as a consumer I don't like it.

really. whatever you do. please make it ONE SIZE FITS ALL. Fitmesh, baked. whatever. Just let me buy a skin or a lovely top and be able to use it on any of my "bodies".

If I have to lose everything again to have my clothing, hair, skin, makeup, etc in order for my future purchases to work on ANY body I chose to exhibit...well it would be worth it. Thats what I want. As a creator and as a consumer I really don't like all the appliers that work for some and not for all. 

thats my two bits from one who has spent a lot of money and who would like to get down to the business of creating without having to purchase every mesh body on the market and take extra time to re-tailor for it. Not because I dont want to create but because the whole creation process just became too tedious.

Let me say it again. Im okay with losing everything to get where I want to go. one shirt for all my bodies. one skin that can be used on all my bodies. etc. etc. etc. Really would love to get the count of my inventory down. 

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5 minutes ago, Tenly said:

I want to know IF this new "baked" on is going to let me use all my old clothing and skins (the clothing/skins I used with a "classic" avatar body) on my belleza body?

Yes. that is the idea.

You will need a updated body that sets the baked flag, then all your legacy linden clothing can be worn and be applied to one layer of that body.

Will it look any good .. eeeeehhhh maybe.. YMMV

When released will allow for higher resolution image maps in linden clothing items, so newer stuff will look much better that all the legacy items you have.

The main uptake from all this is that those legacy clothing inventory types will be back from the dead.

 

Edited by CoffeeDujour
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8 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

You will need a updated body that sets the baked flag, then all your legacy linden clothing can be worn and be applied to one layer of that body.

No, mesh bodies and mesh heads do not need to be updated to allow the Bakes on Mesh on them.

As Bakes on Mesh is in fact "only" special textures, just an applier applying these textures on your mesh body or mesh head (on the skin layer) will show the Bakes on Mesh on them.

Once these Bakes on Mesh applied, they display in real time the system skin, clothes, tattoos... you are wearing.

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21 hours ago, Gael Streeter said:

No, mesh bodies and mesh heads do not need to be updated to allow the Bakes on Mesh on them.

As Bakes on Mesh is in fact "only" special textures, just an applier applying these textures on your mesh body or mesh head (on the skin layer) will show the Bakes on Mesh on them.

Once these Bakes on Mesh applied, they display in real time the system skin, clothes, tattoos... you are wearing.

They probably mean, non custom mapping mesh.  The mesh objects, including avatars, do have to match the system avatar's mapping.  For some avatars, that means updates.  For avatars that already use system mapping, you're correct, no updates needed.

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3 hours ago, Shnurui Troughton said:

They probably mean, non custom mapping mesh.  The mesh objects, including avatars, do have to match the system avatar's mapping.  For some avatars, that means updates.  For avatars that already use system mapping, you're correct, no updates needed.

Not necessarily. Tattoos, alpha files and the new "universal tattoo" items don't care about UV mapping and with skins the only issue is on the head texture there's a small section in one corner that's used for the system eyelashes. If an avatar uses a different UV mapping bakes-on-mesh will work fine if people provide wearable files that match that UV map.

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3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Not necessarily. Tattoos, alpha files and the new "universal tattoo" items don't care about UV mapping and with skins the only issue is on the head texture there's a small section in one corner that's used for the system eyelashes. If an avatar uses a different UV mapping bakes-on-mesh will work fine if people provide wearable files that match that UV map.

I'm not sure if you mean to agree with me or are simply confused.  I'd love to hear more about this "universal tattoo," however; the rest of what you said matches what I said, with the small error about original tattoos and alphas.  The original Tattoos, and Alphas, of which I've made and sell both, do require the SLUV Mapping.  A standard Second Life UV Map.

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24 minutes ago, Shnurui Troughton said:

I'm not sure if you mean to agree with me or are simply confused.  I'd love to hear more about this "universal tattoo," however; the rest of what you said matches what I said, with the small error about original tattoos and alphas.  The original Tattoos, and Alphas, of which I've made and sell both, do require the SLUV Mapping.  A standard Second Life UV Map.

That's because you've made those items for the mapping of the default avatar. If, however, you'd used a different mapping when you made your tattoo, they would work on the avatar with the UV you based that tattoo on. The baking service itself doesn't care. All it does is produce composited textures.

As a ridiculously exaggerated example, I just created a "skin" using the textures for a modifiable helicopter I owned, then wore the helicopter and set the various parts to use the appropriate avatar bakes. The helicopter textures are positioned perfectly.

CopterBake.png

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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So you're confused and agreeing with me.

Your assumption that the bakes on system doesn't care which paint map is where is correct.

Your point that any map can be applied to any location is correct.

Where your confusion is, is where you must make the maps to fit the object.

Your map for the Helios would not work as a map for a pair of boots that are laid out for the sluv.  The texture would not transfer correctly.  The map for a pair of pants does not fit on a face.

There is nothing stopping you from cross linking your face map to your glove map, but don't expect the correct results.  They are not laid out the same.

If you lay a tam on a pair of boots on a t shirt on a pair of skorts, they still won't fit on your head, even though the Scottish hat is on top. 

The maps are the same way.  The part, to which they are applied, must be deigned for them to be applied to.

Edited by Shnurui Troughton
Wrong word from Auto destroy.
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On 6/24/2018 at 2:07 AM, Shnurui Troughton said:

They probably mean, non custom mapping mesh.  The mesh objects, including avatars, do have to match the system avatar's mapping.  For some avatars, that means updates.  For avatars that already use system mapping, you're correct, no updates needed.

This is what you said.

Why would a mesh have to be updated? And why would it have to match the system avatar's mapping when I've shown and you've acknowledged that it doesn't? All the wearable files will need to match the avatar they're worn with but the mesh itself doesn't need to be updated.

Let's use a concrete example - Kemono avatars. They use a non-standard UV map and allow mods that can apply textures to match that UV map. After bakes-on-mesh is live a third-party mod could be made that will allow the avatar bake to be applied to it, and then modders can start making system-asset skins, tattoos, alphas and some skin-tight clothing wearables which will work on that body and can be layered just like the default wearables can on the default body. They can start doing it five minutes after the system goes live without waiting on the body maker to do anything. Those skins, etc. will only work with the Kemono and compatible UV mapped bodies, but those mods only work with them currently anyway.

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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Meshes, that wish to use old textures, that were released with, a) no uv mapping set all, b.) custom uv mapping, or c) uv mapping that is close but not good,  will have to be updated and or repaired, IN ORDER TO USE MAPS BASED ON THE CORE AVATAR MAPS.

 

Your assumption and insistence that I mean, meant, or will have meant, in ANY language, that custom maps can, or should not be used is arrogance and trollish behavior.

 

That English phrasing, in English, says:

If you want to use existing textures you must have an avatar that is unwrapped to maximize those textures.

Personally, i, currently, have 8 models that need to be uupdated to use those textures.

 

NO ONE, ANYWHERE, SAID I MUST FIX THEM.

Does that fix your misunderstanding of plain English?

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5 hours ago, Shnurui Troughton said:

Does that fix your misunderstanding of plain English?

You're the one who accused me of not understanding when I said that the wearable would have to match the UV of the mesh wearing it three different times. Your assumption and insistence that I mean, meant, or will have meant, in ANY language, that a wearable doesn't need to match the UV of the mesh it's worn on could be seen as arrogance and trollish behavior, or simply a failure to understand what I've been saying.

Here's what happened:

1) Tenley asked if Bakes-On-Mesh would allow old skins, etc. could be worn on mesh bodies. From the business she was in, it was clear she was referring to typical "human" avatars.

2) CoffeeDuJour answered that they could, which is correct for the standard human avatars Tenley was interested in as they all use the system body UV map; however, she thought that there would need to be a "flag" set by the creator to allow this.

3) Gael Streeter corrected CoffeeDuJour to point out that bakes on mesh doesn't require the mesh maker to update the bodies because it's done with textures which can be changed by third-party appliers with the type of avatars that were being discussed.

4) You replied to Gael meaning to say that some avatars would need updates if they wanted to use system-UV based wearables and didn't have the standard mapping already. However, this wasn't what Coffee and Gael were discussing and you didn't make what you were saying clear at all.

5) I replied that bakes on mesh would work with the type of assets currently being used regardless of the UV map of the avatar as long as the assets used matched the UV of that avatar. I was only talking about the system and type of asset, not the old, existing tattoos, etc. themselves.

And the rest is history...

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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On 6/23/2018 at 2:39 AM, Tenly said:

Im not sure if you are calling those bodies onions or jellies or what the heck. So please USE non-geek speak.

"Jellies" or JellyDolls are a term created by LL. It's the effect that replaces overly complex avatars if you have that setting enabled.

"Onion bodies" are a term coined by users, to describe how the current mesh bodies are created with multiple copies/layers on top of each other -- like an onion.

"Bakes" are textures created by combining multiple separate textures into one and SL already does that with the system body. "Bakes on Mesh" is this new feature that allows bakes to be automatically applied on your mesh attachments.

I hope that clears up some of the geek-speak. 

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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Mapping and other considerations aside, there WILL need to be one update for all no-mod meshes in the Human Body/head Market. 

They're going to need a button to switch the skin layer from Alpha_Mode_None to Alpha_Mode_Masking. Otherwise any bits you alpha out turn into blank space. 
I have spent the last 3ish years making sure everyone knows to set the skin to none to avoid the alpha glitch annnddd now it's gunna futz things up. -chuckles- 

And yes Mesh Makers, if you have one of my scripts in your stuff, unless we're doing API application only, your skin is set to Alpha_Mode_None with every skin application. 

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20 hours ago, Chellynne Bailey said:

Mapping and other considerations aside, there WILL need to be one update for all no-mod meshes in the Human Body/head Market. 

They're going to need a button to switch the skin layer from Alpha_Mode_None to Alpha_Mode_Masking. Otherwise any bits you alpha out turn into blank space. 
I have spent the last 3ish years making sure everyone knows to set the skin to none to avoid the alpha glitch annnddd now it's gunna futz things up. -chuckles- 

And yes Mesh Makers, if you have one of my scripts in your stuff, unless we're doing API application only, your skin is set to Alpha_Mode_None with every skin application. 

The only reason any changes will need to be made to the avatars/heads that are currently on the market is if the owner wants to use worn alphas instead of using the alpha HUD with them. Right now when you wear a "clothing" type alpha with a no-mod mesh body textured with the "magic" textures nothing happens at all - you can still see the skin and other layers as if the alpha wasn't worn. The alpha cut system still works, though, so you'll still be able to hide pieces of your body like you do now.

Once bodies optimized for bakes on mesh start coming on the market the skin should be set to alpha masking and also the alpha cutoff will have to be set at a number other than the default setting of 0. Once alphas start being used with mesh bodies, one interesting thing is it can be possible to use the alpha cutoff setting to slightly adjust the size of the area blanked off by the alpha if the textures used for the alpha aren't "all-or-nothing" with their transparency.

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3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The only reason any changes will need to be made to the avatars/heads that are currently on the market is if the owner wants to use worn alphas instead of using the alpha HUD with them. Right now when you wear a "clothing" type alpha with a no-mod mesh body textured with the "magic" textures nothing happens at all - you can still see the skin and other layers as if the alpha wasn't worn. The alpha cut system still works, though, so you'll still be able to hide pieces of your body like you do now.

Once bodies optimized for bakes on mesh start coming on the market the skin should be set to alpha masking and also the alpha cutoff will have to be set at a number other than the default setting of 0. Once alphas start being used with mesh bodies, one interesting thing is it can be possible to use the alpha cutoff setting to slightly adjust the size of the area blanked off by the alpha if the textures used for the alpha aren't "all-or-nothing" with their transparency.

Well I presume people will want to. Alpha HUDs are the absolute WORST. -chuckles- But yeah, they'll work for now.  That is a good point about being able to adjust the alpha.  I wonder how many creators would want to make that an option...

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I love when people agree with me.  Especially content creators.  Thanks all.

I just had an update.

So far the bakes on Viewer is great.  Now, suggestion:

If this is supposed to be streamlined construction, the need arises.  Activating and Linking Textures to Baked zones, including the 3 new Aux and the commiserate number of Tattoo layers, needs to be done without forcing the creator(s) to wear the avatar.  

That would be exceedingly lovely, especially if i'm in a hurry.

Edited by Shnurui Troughton

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I haven't been able to wear any of my self created clothing or makeup on my mesh body or head. I guess I do not know how this "new" feature happens.

So jelly is what that grey body is when the textures do not load on your mesh body? and onion is just any mesh body when you put mesh clothes on it? or my belleza is an onion because it overlays my system body?

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