Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

[Love Zhaoying]

I’m loving Bakes-on-Mesh so far!

(You may now return to your regularly scheduled rant.)

[Klytyna]

3 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Only for you aren't, because one important factor: you can't deal with these softwares and therefore you spit hatred on them. You're really laughable.

I stopped using my copy of 3ds max, years ago, because I came to realise that I simply hated its bloody awful UI. Didn't feel like splashing out on Maya, and as for Blender, since I never felt the urge to make and sell mesh in SL, why would I need another app with a UI I don't like? I'll stick with my copy of Cinema 4D thanks all the same.

3 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Noob, again noob. This MIGHT have been the system when blinn was just developed. KEEP UP

Oh don't take MY word for it... Ask SL... or more specifically the SL Official wiki page describing the parameters in SL Materials,,,

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Material_Data

Here's a few choice quotes from the Official SL Materials Info, that you apparently have NEVER bothered tro read...

"Texture Also called the Diffuse Map, this is an image that is displayed on the surface. "

"Color a solid color for the surface; Tints the color of the diffuse map."

15 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Diffuse = Diffuse map multiplied by diffuse colour

"Specular Map This encodes the color of the light reflected by each pixel on the surface."

"Specular Light Color Tints the light reflected from the object; this value is combined with any value from the color for the pixel as specified in the Specular Map"

15 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Specular Tightness = numeric value optionally multiplied by normal map alpha channel

"Glossiness This controls the “glossiness”, or the roughness, of the reflected light on a surface. The lower this value is, the “rougher” the light reflectance is, while the higher the value the “sharper” the light reflectance is. When the normal map’s alpha channel is present, the specular exponent map contained in it is modulated by this parameter"

15 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Environmental Reflection Map strength = numeric value optionally multiplied by specular map alpha channel

"Environment Intensity Modulates the intensity of the environment on the surface as a whole."

SL Wiki says UnoptimoMinimo needs to go do some reading, this isn't Maya, this is SL.

Oh LOOK! The nice SL Wiki people included a handy link to a web page that explains for maya-muppets how NON-PBR materials such as those used in SL are handled...

http://www.manufato.com/?p=902

 

3 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

this is an example of what this render noob is capable of rendering and convert for SL with very close results

Ah... well you didn't "convert" it to SL, what you did was bake the shadows and specular highlights into a texture map, a flat matte finish texture map, then you uploaded that into SL, with a normal map and a specular map, using the system you claim doesn't exist to combine these.

It's like uploading a photo of the Mona Lisa into SL and claiming you "painted it in SL", 

3 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Knowing how shaders work is TOTALLY RELEVANT

The only shader one needs to understand IN SIDE SL, is the one USED IN SIDE SL, you can rant and foam about 'metalness' maps in Maya's PBR shaders till your fuzzy little head explodes, SL doesn't have those, bad luck.

3 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

in which the freaking metals are BLACK and their color is in the specular map

So... according to your render-noob interpretation, if one took a copper bar... And then sand blasted it to a matte non reflective finish, and placed it in very diffuse lighting, it would be black, not copper coloured, unfortunately, this is not in face the case.

YOUR preferred shader model in YOUR preferred application might do [metal coloured] environmental reflection map over black, but not everything else does, hell low end apps like Poser abandoned that technique back in Poser 5 when they put in the Firefly Raytracing engine, with node based shaders instead of the old Poser 4 OpenGL only stuff. Used to be very popular with the content creators over at Runtime DNA, sort of a house style, black diffuse color, and a reflection map...

No black metal, hardware insta-renders,  or 'bakes' here, just old fashioned time consuming software based raytracing.

An ancient test image, none of the metal was painted black before raytracing... Oh and before you start, yeah the background has some spherical distortion, blame the person who made the HDR lightprobe in vertical cross format, over at the HDR-Shop web page, not me, all I did was stick it on a cube environment prop so there would be some sort of quick n dirty background for the test render of the HDRI with the same hdr probe image. 

The dagger was part of a set of mesh props I made as a freebie way back when, in Cinema 4D. No black metal in this pic either... Go figure.

These were just quick n dirty test images, long ago, but I'd rate either of them better than your "leather" that looks like it was injection molded from recycled cheap polythene garbage bins, and that shabby looking excuse for metal on the two rings... But hey! I'm picky...

2 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Hi! I'm a professional 3D artist

Let me guess... Architectual Pre-Viz, right? Red brick and copper tinted solar control glass boxes for proposed office developments, sat in a large flat asphalt car park dotted with pre-made 2d cutouts of 'office workers and parked cars, purchased from a "3d resource" company in Germany?
 

Edited April 9, 2018 by Klytyna

[Vir Linden]

Hey folks,

It's been great seeing all the comments and questions about Bakes on Mesh. We're looking forward to continuing to work with the community on this feature.

A quick reminder, please remember to keep it civil in the forums. It's fine to disagree, even disagree passionately, about this feature or any other topic, but let's keep the discussion focused on those topics rather than engaging in name calling or other types of personal attacks. Thanks!

[Jessicaann Wrigglesworth]

Hello, a few things I would like to point out. It would serve the SL commuity at large if everyone could try to think of this project from the perspective of others that may not be into the same creation as themselves.. and example of this is a mesh creator looking at the issues from a scriptors point of view and vice verses. That might be hard because you might not know what all is involved in doing whatever XYZ creator does, if we do I think we could make the project more successful for more users of SL. 

1. Bakes on mesh needs to work with ALL meshes not just bodies that use the SL UV Map, because alot of bodies and bodys part do not use the SL UV Map, like hands, feet,  furries, and mesh heads, tails, other reproductive body parts etc... 

2. This project has to be able to be very clear how it works to the community at large, more system layers wearables would help with this. example : make up icons / layer wearable, Dress icon / wearable (this would auto apply to the top and skirt)  This would help to make it more intuitive for new users.

[Chellynne Bailey]

2 hours ago, Jessicaann Wrigglesworth said:

1. Bakes on mesh needs to work with ALL meshes not just bodies that use the SL UV Map, because alot of bodies and bodys part do not use the SL UV Map, like hands, feet,  furries, and mesh heads, tails, other reproductive body parts etc... 

3

Non-SLUV bodies, yes. Non-Body meshes.. no. 

I see no reason this can't be used for Furry bodies and their UVs, but non-sluv makers will need to keep in mind there's only 6 (6 right?) bakes available for use, and no real authority on what to use where.  So using them for things that aren't the core body is going to lead to a ton of conflicts when people try to mix and match brands.  People are already talking about using the skirt bake for an arm, what happens when someone tries to use that same layer for a tail? Suddenly you can't wear that tail anymore.  If you're a furry that mixes and matches, you might find out both your ears and spines are trying to use the hair Bake!

So, I will say this again. Do. No. Do. This. Bakes on Mesh is for bodies, and only bodies. All other attachments, if you think there's a 1% chance it might be used with something that isn't your brand, just say no.  We have a wonderful Furry Community in SL that does all sorts of creative things. Let's not ruin it by forcing them to stick with a single brand for their looks.

[Pleiades Constantine]

simple question if i make tattoo's and i make one for right arm then do another for left how will this effect the mesh body since its coming from system to mesh and since the uv for sl is one arm as we all know people wont be able to wear right and left arm tattoo's unless the awesome people have figured a way for this. since we have several bodies that allow for right and left via script that allows people to use different tattoo's on different arms and i wonder will there ever be a fix for hands and feet it would be nice to be able to have different hand tattoos and feet  this would be wonderful to think about 

[Nalates Urriah]

2 hours ago, Pleiades Constantine said:

simple question if i make tattoo's and i make one for right arm then do another for left how will this effect the mesh body since its coming from system to mesh and since the uv for sl is one arm as we all know people wont be able to wear right and left arm tattoo's unless the awesome people have figured a way for this. since we have several bodies that allow for right and left via script that allows people to use different tattoo's on different arms and i wonder will there ever be a fix for hands and feet it would be nice to be able to have different hand tattoos and feet  this would be wonderful to think about 

You will need to know how the mesh body designer laid out the UVMap. It doesn't have to match the classic body's UVMap.

So... it depends.

[Klytyna]

7 hours ago, Pleiades Constantine said:

simple question if i make tattoo's and i make one for right arm then do another for left how will this effect the mesh body since its coming from system to mesh and since the uv for sl is one arm as we all know people wont be able to wear right and left arm tattoo's unless the awesome people have figured a way for this. since we have several bodies that allow for right and left via script that allows people to use different tattoo's on different arms and i wonder will there ever be a fix for hands and feet it would be nice to be able to have different hand tattoos and feet  this would be wonderful to think about

If both arms of the body mesh are set to bake-fail... Then bake-failing a system tattoo arm design will bake-fail it onto both arms..., you cant script it to bake-fail one arm, then the otrher with a different bake ofthe bakefail, as rebaking the bake fail would alter the first arm, bake-fail will onlywork like regular system tatts, 1 design both arms.

 

[Cathy Foil]

8 hours ago, Pleiades Constantine said:

simple question if i make tattoo's and i make one for right arm then do another for left how will this effect the mesh body since its coming from system to mesh and since the uv for sl is one arm as we all know people wont be able to wear right and left arm tattoo's unless the awesome people have figured a way for this. since we have several bodies that allow for right and left via script that allows people to use different tattoo's on different arms and i wonder will there ever be a fix for hands and feet it would be nice to be able to have different hand tattoos and feet  this would be wonderful to think about 

One way to get around this problem would be for skin makers to give out a system skirt of their upper body.  On the mesh avatar simply set one arm to be textured by say the Baked_Skirt texture.  Then simply wear the system skirt from the skin designer and after that you wear a second system skirt of the tattoo.  So that is another Bakes On Mesh WIN!

I have talked to Vir Linden about adding additional texture slots for system tattoos to include the skirt, eyes and hair.  So using system skirts won't be the only way to go.  It would probably be a good idea to add a skirt slot to system skins.  This would illuminate the need to wear a system skirt for the skin texture.

We are still in early stages of the beta testing for Bakes On Mesh.  I can think of several proposals that would make this work around unnecessary but at least there is a work around for now.

[Callum Meriman]

 

On 4/6/2018 at 10:20 AM, Cathy Foil said:

Normal Maps and Specular  Maps  can still be used on mesh using Baked On Mesh system with appliers or manually.

So, the skin's normal map and specular map will bleed onto every layer?

We miss out on things like

• glimmer/glitter eye-shadow
• glossy lipstick if you want outside the standard way-overdone pre-defined shape
• hairbases with normal maps to add definition
• scars with normal maps to add definition
• metallic tattoos
• all the things that could have been possible with system layer textures like latex, carbon fibre, pantyhose, and so on.

What wont work - clearly system clothing will look even worse than it did in 2006 if your body's skin has normals and specular. 

I'll stay on the meh side.

[Pleiades Constantine]

1 minute ago, Cathy Foil said:

One way to get around this problem would be for skin makers to give out a system skirt of their upper body.  On the mesh avatar simply set one arm to be textured by say the Baked_Skirt texture.  Then simply wear the system skirt from the skin designer and after that you wear a second system skirt of the tattoo.  So that is another Bakes On Mesh WIN!

I have talked to Vir Linden about adding additional texture slots for system tattoos to include the skirt, eyes and hair.  So using system skirts won't be the only way to go.  It would probably be a good idea to add a skirt slot to system skins.  This would illuminate the need to wear a system skirt for the skin texture.

We are still in early stages of the beta testing for Bakes On Mesh.  I can think of several proposals that would make this work around unnecessary but at least there is a work around for now.

ok that sounds good im still new to the forums and but since i make tattoo's for SL im hoping i can transfer my items so i can do away with huds , its become normal and habit at this point and i have no problems switching back to how i used to do things im just hoping like you say we can get extra slots because what would happen if i used the baked_Skirt texture for my tattoo's and someone else uses it for something else will there be i cant think of the word but like head on collision two different things being used on the same Baked_Skirt texture or do i have it all wrong unless its labeled i need to learn more about this and i hope one day we can do right and left hands and feet but i know the sl uv only has one arm hehe thank you Cathy Foil

[Callum Meriman]

1 minute ago, Pleiades Constantine said:

what would happen if i used the baked_Skirt texture for my tattoo's and someone else uses it for something else

Which is close to 100% going to happen with that hack. The result being extra support and angry customers when they find they can't wear the asymetrical tattoo unless they take off their fish-nets.

[Cathy Foil]

7 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

 

So, the skin's normal map and specular map will bleed onto every layer?

We miss out on things like

• glimmer/glitter eye-shadow
• glossy lipstick if you want outside the standard way-overdone pre-defined shape
• hairbases with normal maps to add definition
• scars with normal maps to add definition
• metallic tattoos
• all the things that could have been possible with system layer textures like latex, carbon fibre, pantyhose, and so on.

What wont work - clearly system clothing will look even worse than it did in 2006 if your body's skin has normals and specular. 

I'll stay on the meh side.

Normal maps and specular maps can still be applied to mesh avatars using Bakes On Mesh system.  The normal maps and specular maps will need to be applied manually or by using an applier like Omega just as they are now.

[Callum Meriman]

1 minute ago, Cathy Foil said:

Normal maps and specular maps can still be applied to mesh avatars using Bakes On Mesh system.  The normal maps and specular maps will need to be applied manually or by using an applier like Omega just as they are now.

Which is just repeating word-for-word what you said on page 2 and adding nothing.

My points stand. Without built in material baking this will just bleed the skin's materials (applied to the body) over everything baked onto it.

[Cathy Foil]

10 minutes ago, Pleiades Constantine said:

ok that sounds good im still new to the forums and but since i make tattoo's for SL im hoping i can transfer my items so i can do away with huds , its become normal and habit at this point and i have no problems switching back to how i used to do things im just hoping like you say we can get extra slots because what would happen if i used the baked_Skirt texture for my tattoo's and someone else uses it for something else will there be i cant think of the word but like head on collision two different things being used on the same Baked_Skirt texture or do i have it all wrong unless its labeled i need to learn more about this and i hope one day we can do right and left hands and feet but i know the sl uv only has one arm hehe thank you Cathy Foil

We are hoping to get extra bake slots and I have an idea how we can do it with one extra bake slot that would make the possibility of conflicting textures very very remote.

Remember this is still the very early stages of beta testing.  It is good you bring these issues up but don't give up on the project just yet.

[Klytyna]

3 minutes ago, Pleiades Constantine said:

ok that sounds good

Too good to be true, because it's not true...

Cathy suggests setting one arm to use bake-fail-upper-torso and one to use bake-fail-skirt.

Problem is... For you as a tattoo maker, you are trying to make bake-faul compatible tattoos for use on standard commercial mesh bodies, right? The ones all your customers are wearing, the NO MOD bodies, where they cannot set one arm to use bake-fail-skirt.

Indeed if you read back over Cathy's tech-illiterate posts, she states that bake-fail-on-mesh will eliminate the need for multiple faces on mesh bodies, so there wouldnt be seperate arm faces, just upper torso and lower torso anyway.

So, her idea for a workaround isn't practicable on current bodies, and would require future bake-fail specific bodies to be divided up in a manner bake-fail is supposed to eliminate.

9 minutes ago, Pleiades Constantine said:

because what would happen if i used the baked_Skirt texture for my tattoo's and someone else uses it for something else will there be i cant think of the word but like head on collision

Conflict... Your bake-fail-skirt based left arm tattoo will be stomped on by somebody elses bake-fail-skirt based lipstick.

Adding extra layers to skirts, wont fix that, it would just mean that the tattoo layer on the skirt with your arm tattoo, would get bake-failed WITH the lipstick bake-fail-skirt-underwear and the hairbase bake-fail-skirt outerwear and become some damn awful mess, and that's just if we confine bake-fail to bodies... the idea that bake-fail can also be used to texture rigged/fitted mesh clothing as wqell means some customers left arm has your tattoo over a giant lip print over some hairbase over a plaid skirt texture... Delightful!

 

[Cathy Foil]

1 minute ago, Callum Meriman said:

Which is just repeating word-for-word what you said on page 2 and adding nothing.

My points stand. Without built in material baking this will just bleed the skin's materials (applied to the body) over everything baked onto it.

I am going to do some experiments on how to combine two or more normal maps and specular maps.  I think I have an idea of how it could be done but I don't know if LL will have the resources to make the code necessary for it.  Like I said don't give up yet.

[Pleiades Constantine]

1 minute ago, Cathy Foil said:

We are hoping to get extra bake slots and I have an idea how we can do it with one extra bake slot that would make the possibility of conflicting textures very very remote.

Remember this is still the very early stages of beta testing.  It is good you bring these issues up but don't give up on the project just yet.

oh no i dont want to give up i love the idea of it and extra slots and icons and i understand this will take some time and more think tanks lol

[Callum Meriman]

5 minutes ago, Cathy Foil said:

I am going to do some experiments on how to combine two or more normal maps and specular maps.  I think I have an idea of how it could be done but I don't know if LL will have the resources to make the code necessary for it.  Like I said don't give up yet.

Vir Linden said "Nope, there will be no materials, we want to rush this out of the door" (paraphrased)

Edited April 10, 2018 by Callum Meriman

[Cathy Foil]

3 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Too good to be true, because it's not true...

Cathy suggests setting one arm to use bake-fail-upper-torso and one to use bake-fail-skirt.

Problem is... For you as a tattoo maker, you are trying to make bake-faul compatible tattoos for use on standard commercial mesh bodies, right? The ones all your customers are wearing, the NO MOD bodies, where they cannot set one arm to use bake-fail-skirt.

Indeed if you read back over Cathy's tech-illiterate posts, she states that bake-fail-on-mesh will eliminate the need for multiple faces on mesh bodies, so there wouldnt be seperate arm faces, just upper torso and lower torso anyway.

So, her idea for a workaround isn't practicable on current bodies, and would require future bake-fail specific bodies to be divided up in a manner bake-fail is supposed to eliminate.

Conflict... Your bake-fail-skirt based left arm tattoo will be stomped on by somebody elses bake-fail-skirt based lipstick.

Adding extra layers to skirts, wont fix that, it would just mean that the tattoo layer on the skirt with your arm tattoo, would get bake-failed WITH the lipstick bake-fail-skirt-underwear and the hairbase bake-fail-skirt outerwear and become some damn awful mess, and that's just if we confine bake-fail to bodies... the idea that bake-fail can also be used to texture rigged/fitted mesh clothing as wqell means some customers left arm has your tattoo over a giant lip print over some hairbase over a plaid skirt texture... Delightful!

 

The mesh body maker would make one of the arms set to Baked_Skirt not the customer so no need to make the mesh Mod.  Also I am going to propose that a new script function that would allow a HUD to change which baking slot is being used.  A mesh body maker simply applies a different material to one arm so your standard mesh body like SLink body would have 3 materials instead of 2.

I am already working on a plan to eliminate or make the possibility of conflicting baking slots down to a one chance in 100,000 with the addition of a single auxiliary baking slot.

How about coming up with possible solutions to problems or don't you have the brain power to be able to come up with some?  Try being a productive positive force for once.  You might like it.

[Cathy Foil]

6 minutes ago, Callum Meriman said:

Vir Linden said "Nope, there will be no materials, we want to rush this out of the door" (paraphrased)

What he means is right now normal maps and specular maps are not being handled by the baking system so Bakes On Mesh can not apply them.
It doesn't mean that by the time Bakes On Mesh is released that it won't.
Even it if doesn't get in the initial release it is entirely possible it will be added in a followup project to Bakes On Mesh.

[Chellynne Bailey]

1 hour ago, Cathy Foil said:

The mesh body maker would make one of the arms set to Baked_Skirt not the customer so no need to make the mesh Mod.  Also I am going to propose that a new script function that would allow a HUD to change which baking slot is being used.  A mesh body maker simply applies a different material to one arm so your standard mesh body like SLink body would have 3 materials instead of 2.

I am already working on a plan to eliminate or make the possibility of conflicting baking slots down to a one chance in 100,000 with the addition of a single auxiliary baking slot.

How about coming up with possible solutions to problems or don't you have the brain power to be able to come up with some?  Try being a productive positive force for once.  You might like it.

Well they were asking how it would work as it is presented now.  And right now, any attempts to use Bakes for things other then what they are intended WILL lead to conflicts. No matter how many slots you add. By all means, try and convince the Lindens to flesh the system out more. but I don't think extra slots is a meaningful solution. 

Ultimately, even though she's being rather mean about it! -pokes Kly and wags a finger at her!-, she is right, this all would have worked better if they'd instead given us access to the baking system and let us compose our own list of textures to be baked together.  Then again, the two are not mutually exclusive. They could finish this feature and then also give us that baking API. That would allow System Layers to work AND would let us use baking on a multitude of items without conflicts. That at least would be my dream scenario.

[Cathy Foil]

55 minutes ago, Chellynne Bailey said:

Well they were asking how it would work as it is presented now.  And right now, any attempts to use Bakes for things other then what they are intended WILL lead to conflicts. No matter how many slots you add. By all means, try and convince the Lindens to flesh the system out more. but I don't think extra slots is a meaningful solution. 

Ultimately, even though she's being rather mean about it! -pokes Kly and wags a finger at her!-, she is right, this all would have worked better if they'd instead given us access to the baking system and let us compose our own list of textures to be baked together.  Then again, the two are not mutually exclusive. They could finish this feature and then also give us that baking API. That would allow System Layers to work AND would let us use baking on a multitude of items without conflicts. That at least would be my dream scenario.

I have no problem with LL taking up an additional baking API.  It would suffer from problems as well because no system is perfect.  The API she proposes would not be as easy for the end user to use nor as flexible as Baked On Mesh.  It would suffer from many of the same problems as Bakes On Mesh plus some problems Bakes On Mesh doesn't have.  If you don't want to give out your UUIDs then you have to put them in a script.  If you put them in a script you can edit the order or add more UUIDs.  If you run a second script with additional UUIDS you lose the first baked texture.  You can reorder the textures.  You could probably fix the texture order problem with a HUD but that would only work for UUIDs contained in the script but that would require additional scripts making the whole system more and more laggy.

Read my previous pose to see how a single extra slot or Baked_Auxiliary slot could be made to work on many worn meshes and faces with only a minuscule chance of conflict.

Remember we are still in the early stages of Beta testing.  Many bright minds are going to come up with brilliant solutions.   I have already come up with a solution to the conflicts you see.
Will LL do my solution? Maybe or maybe not.  It depends on how much code would need to be written or changed to make it work and if LL has the resources.  It is very possible someone will come up with an even better solution.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Cathy Foil

[Fionalein]

Ermmm? Klytyna, do you realize those omega appliers have just SLUV texture UUIDs in them... you are already wearing those old system skins on your "prescious new" mesh =^.^=

[Loki Eliot]

The whole idea of wearing system clothes in order to pop on a tattoo is a great idea, but in practice may be limiting. By switching the mesh face to 'Bake Mode' the Texture/diffuse is ignored in preference to the bakes texture thats created by the combination of system clothes currently worn. This includes the original texture that was on mesh to start with. When i wore a system shirt with a dirt tattoo, i discovered that the baked texture applied to my arms was combined with the System Skin and not the texture already on my mesh avatar. So I had to create a new system skin but with the textures of my mesh avatar so they would bake. This throws up a problem in that my mesh avatar uses 4 textures, Head, Arms, Torso and Legs, which is one texture more than Base Skin files allow so i'll never be able to bake the whole mesh body due to how i made it. Unless i'm still missing something in the process?