Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

[Hilary Querrien]

My gloves / stockings are on the clothing layer. So when I'm wearing them as appliers, the nails show *under* the stockings. However, if I wear the system versions (which are 'socks'), then the stockings get painted on beneath the nails. Similarly with gloves

It'd sort of be nice if bakes on mesh could be persuaded to bake the mesh body skin and nails first  and then add the system layer stuff though I guess I have some hope of the suppliers of my usual skin producing a bakes on mesh compatible version as they're still selling stuff.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Hilary Querrien

[Shnurui Troughton]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

What do you mean by this, exactly?

 

Exactly what I said.  When the original model, aka Ruth, was designed, built, and released, linden labs cheated us, and them, out of having a left and right arm map.

The two arms in the SLUV are the inner and outer arm, on both sides of the model.

There is no left and right on the original arm of the original model.  There is no left and right on the original foot of the same model.

This was not corrected in 2.0

This is only correctable by mesh designers, but does not allow for use with the bakes on system.

[Shnurui Troughton]

9 minutes ago, Hilary Querrien said:

My gloves / stockings are on the clothing layer. So when I'm wearing them as appliers, the nails show *under* the stockings. However, if I wear the system versions (which are 'socks'), then the stockings get painted on beneath the nails. Similarly with gloves

It'd sort of be nice if bakes on mesh could be persuaded to bake the mesh body skin and nails first  and then add the system layer stuff though I guess I have some hope of the suppliers of my usual skin producing a bakes on mesh compatible version as they're still selling stuff.

I don't understand.  

Are your nails not part of your skin layer?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

12 minutes ago, Hilary Querrien said:

It'd sort of be nice if bakes on mesh could be persuaded to bake the mesh body skin and nails first  and then add the system layer stuff

Does it not? What kind of results are you getting? You should post a screenshot to help explain the problem more clearly. 

6 minutes ago, Shnurui Troughton said:

Exactly what I said.  When the original model, aka Ruth, was designed, built, and released, linden labs cheated us, and them, out of having a left and right arm map.

The two arms in the SLUV are the inner and outer arm, on both sides of the model.

There is no left and right on the original arm of the original model.  There is no left and right on the original foot of the same model.

This was not corrected in 2.0

This is only correctable by mesh designers, but does not allow for use with the bakes on system.

There is a left arm available now with BoM. It was added specifically to support asymmetrical textures, even on the base body. 

[Klytyna]

2 hours ago, Shnurui Troughton said:

I don't understand. 

Are your nails not part of your skin layer?

Pay attention...

You WEAR your system skin...

Then you ADD not wear, your system tattoos tattoo layer...

Then you ADD not wear your system nail polish tattoo layer...

Then you add your system lace gloves/stockings/see-though-catsuit system tattoo/clothing layers...

On a system avatar, this should result in your nail polish being baked UNDER your lace gloves/stockings etc.

See... Tattoo layers are not JUST used for tattoos, they are also used for makeups, and some types of clothing, where you want upper body/lower body and hands/feet all in one item. That's how we used to get dressed back in the "Olden Days" of Viewer 2...

Maybe you remember those days?
 

Theoretically this should also work for this BakeFail-on-Mesh rubbish.
 

[Shnurui Troughton]

30 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Pay attention...

You WEAR your system skin...

Then you ADD not wear, your system tattoos tattoo layer...

Then you ADD not wear your system nail polish tattoo layer...

Then you add your system lace gloves/stockings/see-though-catsuit system tattoo/clothing layers...

On a system avatar, this should result in your nail polish being baked UNDER your lace gloves/stockings etc.

See... Tattoo layers are not JUST used for tattoos, they are also used for makeups, and some types of clothing, where you want upper body/lower body and hands/feet all in one item. That's how we used to get dressed back in the "Olden Days" of Viewer 2...

Maybe you remember those days?
 

Theoretically this should also work for this BakeFail-on-Mesh rubbish.
 

That was a response to Hilary Querrien, I asked what layer her nails were on.

That was Exactly why I made the response to Hillary Querrien.

If you have a problem with the way Hillary Querrien's avatar is working, maybe you should help her.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Shnurui Troughton

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Hilary Querrien said:

Hi. I found this when I was going quietly nuts with a mesh body (I've only just got my first) trying to work out how to get two tattoos and downloaded the test viewer, got the applier, and asked linden to enable me for the beta grid. And went there and tried it.

It is quite wonderful (and I only had one false start at getting it working which is nothing short of miraculous for me). And thank you Linden family for the work you're putting in on this.

One thing that is a bit worrying though - the feet and hands look strange if they're mesh (Slink if that is relevant). You get the nails from your system layer skin and also from the mesh versions, and if you wear system gloves/stockings the mesh finger/toenails still come above them (and I rather like being able to paint my toenails, which I couldn't till I got a mesh body). Is this being looked at?

Hugs

Slink (and similar) hands and feet use a slightly modified version of the basic skin textures - they erase the fingernails and with the toes they spread them out a bit and add a shadow under the nails. A hand or foot applier usually includes a texture that only has the hand/foot, but it's in the same place as the main skin textures. The solution to this would be to wear a tattoo layer on top of your older skin to do the same hiding/modifying trick with fingers and toes. As people start to make things specifically for bakes-on-mesh these changes will probably already be put into new skins.

[xoRenaxo]

I am not a techie person at all and I just wanted to put my feedback in. I downloaded the viewer for Bakes on Mesh, added my Omega relay huds for Catwa and Maitreya and added the Bakes on Mesh Omega hud. I was able to apply old system layer skins, makeup, etc. Omg, it was so fun!!! I am so excited about Bakes On Mesh!! ??

The only issue that I saw ( I only played around with this for about 45 min so far) was that my neck had a line in it still. Now, that could have been my problem, maybe I needed to turn off the Neck Fix in the Maitreya hud? Not sure, or it may have been the lightning that I was using. Anyone else have that problem? If you happen to answer, please do so in layman's terms as I am not techie at all. My idea of doing this is to press a button lol. :)

[Blush Bravin]

If using mesh body and mesh head, it's best to turn off the neck fix, especially since if you're using an old system skin it will not have the special blend used for texturing mesh body/head neck fixes.

[xoRenaxo]

5 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

If using mesh body and mesh head, it's best to turn off the neck fix, especially since if you're using an old system skin it will not have the special blend used for texturing mesh body/head neck fixes.

Great, thank you, I'll try that ?

[Hilary Querrien]

I'm a little surprised nobody has seen this before then.

Here is my slink feet with red nails (these are the nails you get as part of the slink feet), wearing stockings (using the applier hud). As you can see, the stockings cover the nails (which look a bit strange due to feet and bake on mesh not sitting well together).

and here I'm using the bake on mesh. Same feet, stockings on the sock layer. And the nails are outside the stockings.

 

which looks odd.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Hilary Querrien
small clarification

[Hilary Querrien]

On 8/18/2018 at 1:52 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

Slink (and similar) hands and feet use a slightly modified version of the basic skin textures - they erase the fingernails and with the toes they spread them out a bit and add a shadow under the nails. A hand or foot applier usually includes a texture that only has the hand/foot, but it's in the same place as the main skin textures. The solution to this would be to wear a tattoo layer on top of your older skin to do the same hiding/modifying trick with fingers and toes. As people start to make things specifically for bakes-on-mesh these changes will probably already be put into new skins.

I thought tattoos could only add stuff, not hide it. Is there some way you can explain this to the hopelessly non-technical?

For what it's worth, I'm hoping the people who make the skin come out with a bakes on mesh version, as they still have a shop, but they seem to have moved into bento heads recently rather than skins.

[Hilary Querrien]

On 8/18/2018 at 9:29 AM, Shnurui Troughton said:

I don't understand.  

Are your nails not part of your skin layer?

I don't know. they're the ones that come with my slink feet. see the piccies I posted

[Wulfie Reanimator]

19 minutes ago, Hilary Querrien said:

I'm a little surprised nobody has seen this before then.

Here is my slink feet with red nails, wearing stockings (using the applier hud). As you can see, the stockings cover the nails (which look a bit strange due to feet and bake on mesh not sitting well together).

and here I'm using the bake on mesh. Same feet, stockings on the sock layer. And the nails are outside the stockings.

 

which looks odd.

Okay, the problem seems to be exactly what I was trying to explain:

The nails on the Slink feet are separate mesh from the actual foot (kinda like you would expect from real nails).

When you use an applier to add stockings, there is a totally separate layer of mesh that covers the feet and mesh nails. (This is what we call an "onion" and their existence is why this feature is needed in the first place.)

When you switch to Bakes on Mesh, the bakes are applied to the mesh face of the foot, but not the nails, which exist separately on top of your foot with a separate face. That is why your nails don't get covered. You can just look at the big toes. Those are the actual nails you get from your skin with BoM.

I don't own the Slink feet, but try and find a way to hide your nails through your Slink HUD. That should solve the issue and you'll see the nails of the skin you're wearing.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Theresa Tennyson]

49 minutes ago, Hilary Querrien said:

I thought tattoos could only add stuff, not hide it. Is there some way you can explain this to the hopelessly non-technical?

For what it's worth, I'm hoping the people who make the skin come out with a bakes on mesh version, as they still have a shop, but they seem to have moved into bento heads recently rather than skins.

System clothing works almost exactly the way a graphics program like Photoshop that uses "layers" works. Skins and various types of clothing are made up of "texture"files which the "baking service" stacks on top of each other in a specific order. It then it combines those separate textures into a single file and sends it back to you. Usually the "upper" levels of texture will cover parts of the "lower" levels and let other parts of them show through, depending on how they're made.

A "tattoo" in Second Life can be just as opaque as a shirt. If someone makes a texture of the revised toes and puts it into a tattoo it can cover and replace the toes from the skin below. This is exactly the way "cleavage" tattoos work now.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Okay, the problem seems to be exactly what I was trying to explain:

The nails on the Slink feet are separate mesh from the actual foot (kinda like you would expect from real nails).

When you use an applier to add stockings, there is a totally separate layer of mesh that covers the feet and mesh nails. (This is what we call an "onion" and their existence is why this feature is needed in the first place.)

When you switch to Bakes on Mesh, the bakes are applied to the mesh face of the foot, but not the nails, which exist separately on top of your foot with a separate face. That is why your nails don't get covered. You can just look at the big toes. Those are the actual nails you get from your skin with BoM.

I don't own the Slink feet, but try and find a way to hide your nails through your Slink HUD. That should solve the issue and you'll see the nails of the skin you're wearing.

Except that the bakes on mesh picture looks soo off because the stockings are painted directly on the foot. Without the "onion" layer on the feet, stockings and socks will look stupid. Perhaps Feet should keep the layers. 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

18 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Except that the bakes on mesh picture looks soo off because the stockings are painted directly on the foot. Without the "onion" layer on the feet, stockings and socks will look stupid. Perhaps Feet should keep the layers. 

Possibly, or just a different "toe type" so there are no individual toes, but a flat surface for fabric.

The onion term is more appropriately used for whole avatars though, which have 3-5 layers in total. One layer isn't necessarily bad.

All of is sorta besides the point though, as far as the nail issue goes. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Coffee Pancake]

33 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Except that the bakes on mesh picture looks soo off because the stockings are painted directly on the foot. Without the "onion" layer on the feet, stockings and socks will look stupid. Perhaps Feet should keep the layers. 

Perhaps toe nails do not require geometry in 99% of normal use cases. Seriously - This kind of thing is why we have terrible frame-rates.

[Blush Bravin]

We need an onion layer for socks and also for gloves. It might not be as bad to not have one for gloves but it's an absolute must for socks/stockings. 

[Hilary Querrien]

16 hours ago, Blush Bravin said:

We need an onion layer for socks and also for gloves. It might not be as bad to not have one for gloves but it's an absolute must for socks/stockings. 

A lot of my lingerie has matching gloves and stockings. So definitely need them both to behave.

 

23 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Okay, the problem seems to be exactly what I was trying to explain:

The nails on the Slink feet are separate mesh from the actual foot (kinda like you would expect from real nails).

When you use an applier to add stockings, there is a totally separate layer of mesh that covers the feet and mesh nails. (This is what we call an "onion" and their existence is why this feature is needed in the first place.)

When you switch to Bakes on Mesh, the bakes are applied to the mesh face of the foot, but not the nails, which exist separately on top of your foot with a separate face. That is why your nails don't get covered. You can just look at the big toes. Those are the actual nails you get from your skin with BoM.

I don't own the Slink feet, but try and find a way to hide your nails through your Slink HUD. That should solve the issue and you'll see the nails of the skin you're wearing.

If you switch the nails off on slink feet you end up with holes. it's seriously creepy.

In any case I don't want the nails on the skin I'm wearing. I want my pretty coloured slink nails. And I'd expect my stockings and gloves to go over over my nails. Kinda like real stockings stockings and gloves.

*hugs* Hil (who realises she's in danger of turning into a pout monster over this)

Edited August 21, 2018 by Hilary Querrien

[Fionalein]

Some clever person will eventually release slink foot sized BOM compatible "sock-feet" and get rich... what are you waiting for meshers? Off to work with you.

[Hilary Querrien]

Well, I was hoping that maybe slink / other mesh bodies and linden would do this

[SueWorthly]

On 8/21/2018 at 5:49 PM, Fionalein said:

Some clever person will eventually release slink foot sized BOM compatible "sock-feet" and get rich... what are you waiting for meshers? Off to work with you.

I second this, that would be so nice. Then you could save it in your outfits folder, unlike appliers, and you will add it only when needed, as any other clothing. It could be even more than just this, with an higher degree of freedom: makers would be free to add all the frills and ruffles they want to their socks. The mesh sock shouldn't be too difficult to do: actually some mesh stocking and pantyhose are around since a while already, you can find them on the marketplace too. Some are compatible enough that you can wear some or most of the Slink shoes. Ideally, however, they should have the exact same shape as Slink or Maitreya sock layers - or any other brand - and adding that to the dev kits would be a plus. Then something like this and BOM compatible as you say, sounds like a winner to me.

[Hollowbloods]

Has anyone discussed the future of older appliers with the BoM system? Do you think the transition will be similar to the transition to Bento or drastically different? This isn't much feedback, but working as someone who does personal styling, people catch wind of bakes on mesh and become really concerned that mesh creators are going to drop applier support from their existing bento mesh in the future for the BoM system. I never really know what to tell people in response to their worry because, I suppose until release time I'm widely unsure of whether the applier system as a whole will be dropped. 

I figure a large group of people will stop making appliers for mesh when BoM goes live, but when you have 4-5 years worth of work piled into this applier system from multiple designers, if mesh creators drop applier support completely with an update to the mesh then a large crowd of people are going to have a riot over the fact they can't use 4-5 years worth of stuff on their mesh anymore. 

It's not really a question anyone knows the answer to probably. Will mesh creators for bodies and heads drop applier support completely, or will all the pre-existing bento mesh not be updated to support BoM and all newer mesh will be? I just wish I had an answer for some of these people who are SO incredibly distraught over the fact that BoM is going to kill the applier system for the most part.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

2 hours ago, Hollowbloods said:

Has anyone discussed the future of older appliers with the BoM system? Do you think the transition will be similar to the transition to Bento or drastically different? This isn't much feedback, but working as someone who does personal styling, people catch wind of bakes on mesh and become really concerned that mesh creators are going to drop applier support from their existing bento mesh in the future for the BoM system. I never really know what to tell people in response to their worry because, I suppose until release time I'm widely unsure of whether the applier system as a whole will be dropped. 

I figure a large group of people will stop making appliers for mesh when BoM goes live, but when you have 4-5 years worth of work piled into this applier system from multiple designers, if mesh creators drop applier support completely with an update to the mesh then a large crowd of people are going to have a riot over the fact they can't use 4-5 years worth of stuff on their mesh anymore. 

It's not really a question anyone knows the answer to probably. Will mesh creators for bodies and heads drop applier support completely, or will all the pre-existing bento mesh not be updated to support BoM and all newer mesh will be? I just wish I had an answer for some of these people who are SO incredibly distraught over the fact that BoM is going to kill the applier system for the most part.

The most logical thing to happen is "our bodies will stay the same, but there will be an option for BoM." Which is not ideal.

And then it's going to get awkward when people have clothing layers worn with appliers on top, wondering why things look wonky.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Wulfie Reanimator