Alexa Linden

Bakes on Mesh Feedback Thread

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8 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

For most of the skins currently on the market from the last 5 years or so you'll still be able to use appliers for hands/feet/etc - you just won't use bakes-on-mesh for those parts. Also, the only real problem areas with hands and feet are the fingertips and toes - it would be simple enough to wear a "tattoo" with the appropriate finger and toe detailing for different body parts. The Omega appliers I've seen lately appear to have most of the feet textured with a plain skin tone anyway.

Ultimately, all a skin or an applier does is send a texture file. The advantage of bakes-on-mesh is it can combine a large number of partial textures into a single texture without needing for them to be on separate mesh layers.

Thank you for the answer, but it actually brings more questions. Lets say I will have system full body tattoo (feets and hands included) or feet/hand tatoos.

I will use

1/ system skin for body + system tattoo nail fix for hands and feet, will it be compatible with the decorative tattoos as well?

2/ system skin for body + skin appliers for foot and hands (because for the skin tattoo nail fix won't be available) - will that work witht he decorative tattoo?

As semi-fantasy avatar I wear sometimes hand/foot tattoos and in same time I need to keep my older mesh foot for some older Slink-only jewellery or fantasy add-ons (as claws), so I feel limited in my choices. I'm not sure if BOM will make it easier or more complicated than it is today.

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8 hours ago, Sachios Feden said:

I don't know about all but I consider myself as one of those of those image conscious  skin makers and that is why I never wanted to put my system skins on every mesh body using some "universal " applier. With BoM, all I have to do is make separate system skins and put specific avatar brand name on each. I suppose costumers who go through the pain of figuring out applier systems will appreciate only having to find the skin item for your particular avatar in a folder.

This is exactly what I fear and why I asked - see above.

No option for combination of body brand A + foot brand B (and even + hands brand C).

As CoffeeDujour already said, it will force us customers to be creative and combine system skins with older appliers and/or nail fix tattoos. Or to put in the trash all meshes (apparel and jewellery) made for different brands and to wear "clear" combo of one brand only. I'm really not sure if it will be on customer's side easier than to buy appliers and click on the HUDs.

 

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2 minutes ago, loverdag said:

Thank you for the answer, but it actually brings more questions. Lets say I will have system full body tattoo (feets and hands included) or feet/hand tatoos.

I will use

1/ system skin for body + system tattoo nail fix for hands and feet, will it be compatible with the decorative tattoos as well?

2/ system skin for body + skin appliers for foot and hands (because for the skin tattoo nail fix won't be available) - will that work witht he decorative tattoo?

As semi-fantasy avatar I wear sometimes hand/foot tattoos and in same time I need to keep my older mesh foot for some older Slink-only jewellery or fantasy add-ons (as claws), so I feel limited in my choices. I'm not sure if BOM will make it easier or more complicated than it is today.

1/ Yes, completely. You can have over 50 wearable "layers" and you have control over what appears over what. (Also, bear in mind that a tattoo fix for fingertips and toes will be quite easy to do and doesn't have to be made by the original skin maker.)

2/ The tattoos will work on applier hands and feet if the maker has provided the appliers, just like they do now.

 

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3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

1/ Yes, completely. You can have over 50 wearable "layers" and you have control over what appears over what. (Also, bear in mind that a tattoo fix for fingertips and toes will be quite easy to do and doesn't have to be made by the original skin maker.)

2/ The tattoos will work on applier hands and feet if the maker has provided the appliers, just like they do now.

 

Oh wow, 50 layers is great. I remeber we got 5 (I think) in old times. So answer 1 makes me happy.

Answer 2 not so much - a lot of creators will not bother to make new tattoos with appliers at all and if they will do, probably not for minority brands, so there will not be way how to use them then. 

Anywas thanks for the answers.

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3 minutes ago, loverdag said:

This is exactly what I fear and why I asked - see above.

No option for combination of body brand A + foot brand B (and even + hands brand C).

As CoffeeDujour already said, it will force us customers to be creative and combine system skins with older appliers and/or nail fix tattoos. Or to put in the trash all meshes (apparel and jewellery) made for different brands and to wear "clear" combo of one brand only. I'm really not sure if it will be on customer's side easier than to buy appliers and click on the HUDs.

 

Or buy skins from people who do provide the options....

Right now one of the accounts I use that has a Maitreya body needs to wear Maitreya feet even thought I'd prefer to wear Slink feet due to older shoes that account has because the Maitreya and Slink hosiery onion layers don't match properly, and neither I nor anyone else besides the mesh makers will ever be able to fix that. One of the things I like about bakes-on-mesh is it gives me more control over what I can do.

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4 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Or buy skins from people who do provide the options....

 

Thats easier to say than to do. I prefer less known small brands - in other words skins I didn't see 50 times every day on Flickr because they are majority brands with tons of bloggers - and those small creators are very often people who don't make it as business, its more like side hobby for them. So they have limited time to create. Currently I changed skin (after more than year with the old one) and I wear unknown brand which provide only catwa + maitreya + omega. The omega has no issues, so I still can use Slink feet with no problem. But for the future I can't expect the creator will have so much time to provide all versions, when they don't do that now. In other words, to step out of crowd and to wear smaller brands will be probably harder than today, or more limited in choices of tattoos etc.

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2 minutes ago, loverdag said:

Thats easier to say than to do. I prefer less known small brands - in other words skins I didn't see 50 times every day on Flickr because they are majority brands with tons of bloggers - and those small creators are very often people who don't make it as business, its more like side hobby for them. So they have limited time to create. Currently I changed skin (after more than year with the old one) and I wear unknown brand which provide only catwa + maitreya + omega. The omega has no issues, so I still can use Slink feet with no problem. But for the future I can't expect the creator will have so much time to provide all versions, when they don't do that now. In other words, to step out of crowd and to wear smaller brands will be probably harder than today, or more limited in choices of tattoos etc.

The skin maker doesn't have to make the tattoos. Somebody else can, or you can. The changes that need to be made are generally very small. If you remember before appliers became standard, Slink hands and feet had separate textures and they provided blenders to feather them into body skin. I have accounts that still do things that way because they use skins that never got appliers.

To go back to the account that uses the Maitreya body: The only reason that account uses that body is to keep using a skin that only had Maitreya and TMP applier support. Personally I think the overall shape of the Maitreya body isn't very good at all compared to some of the other bodies on the market, but I use it because of decisions other people made. That's not generally how I want to live my life.

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7 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The skin maker doesn't have to make the tattoos. Somebody else can, or you can. The changes that need to be made are generally very small.

I meant something else. IF I understood correctly what you said, it probably means that to wear tattoos with BOM will be more complicated than today (for avatars who don't wear same brand meshes on entire body).

Model situation:

- avatar wears Maitreya body and Slink feet.

- she wants to buy full body tattoo (feet included) or leg tattoo (feet incl.)

 

Today

- she will buy tattoo with Omega appliers - they will work with all her mesh parts and with all her skins

BOM

- in the first step she will have to think about her skin:  "Do I wear system skin on entire body (Maitreya + Slink)?"

YES = no problem, I can wear system tattoos with no limitation

NO (I wear system skin on body only + Slink appliers on feet (to avoid the nail issue, because my creator made the system skin for Maitreya only) = I can't wear system tattoos with feet included, because they will not work with the feet

---------------------------

Is that correct? If yes, then everyone who doens't have time/skills/will to made their own tattoos will be more limited than today. And also I can imagine that as source of many confusions on users side. They can even blame the tattoo creators, because they will not understand how it works, like "I bough your tattoo and I want my money back, because its broken, doesn't work with my feet". 

 

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future solution: just wear an applier tattoo over BOM skinnie... will not stop working ;)

Edited by Fionalein

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1 hour ago, loverdag said:

I meant something else. IF I understood correctly what you said, it probably means that to wear tattoos with BOM will be more complicated than today (for avatars who don't wear same brand meshes on entire body).

Model situation:

- avatar wears Maitreya body and Slink feet.

- she wants to buy full body tattoo (feet included) or leg tattoo (feet incl.)

 

Today

- she will buy tattoo with Omega appliers - they will work with all her mesh parts and with all her skins

BOM

- in the first step she will have to think about her skin:  "Do I wear system skin on entire body (Maitreya + Slink)?"

YES = no problem, I can wear system tattoos with no limitation

NO (I wear system skin on body only + Slink appliers on feet (to avoid the nail issue, because my creator made the system skin for Maitreya only) = I can't wear system tattoos with feet included, because they will not work with the feet

---------------------------

Is that correct? If yes, then everyone who doens't have time/skills/will to made their own tattoos will be more limited than today. And also I can imagine that as source of many confusions on users side. They can even blame the tattoo creators, because they will not understand how it works, like "I bough your tattoo and I want my money back, because its broken, doesn't work with my feet". 

 

Theresa Tennyson sighs.

I wear full-body tattoos all the time. In fact, I normally wear two at the same time right now - an athletic body tattoo and then a freckle tattoo over it. One of the main reasons I don't wear mesh bodies is because I do wear full body tattoos and means that I need to use the single tattoo layer for the tattoo. That also means that I can't wear anything on the underwear layer that uses alpha blending without major alpha-sorting issues - no lace underwear for me, sadly... Another account wears separate tattoos on the front and back of her body which isn't compatible with some bodies. This is one of the big reasons that I want bakes-on-mesh to happen.

All of the full-body tattoos I wear that have anything happening with the hands and feet include appliers in addition to system layers.

Using appliers on hands and feet is only necessary if you're wearing a skin that doesn't have the appropriate detailing for your hands and feet. I imagine the vast majority of skins made after bakes-on-mesh rolls out will simply use the Omega mapping, at least for hands and feet. The only real difference between Omega and Slink feet layouts is the Slink layout includes shading under the toenails, which are the dark splotches seen on the mis-textured foot.

And in the situation you bring up, where the skin maker "only makes system skins for Maitreya bodies" (which nobody does right now because system skins don't work on Maitreya bodies) what guarantee do you have that they'll even make appliers for Slink feet?

On "confusion", I should point out that your description of the current state of the art is incomplete; you should have said, "- she will buy tattoo with Omega appliers - they will work with all her mesh parts and with all her skins if she has bought and used the Omega installer for her Slink feet, has bought and is wearing the Omega relay for her Maitreya body, is on land that allows scripts and doesn't want to wear more than one tattoo at the same time." Doesn't look that simple when you put it that way, does it?

 

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

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8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And in the situation you bring up, where the skin maker "only makes system skins for Maitreya bodies" (which nobody does right now because system skins don't work on Maitreya bodies) what guarantee do you have that they'll even make appliers for Slink feet?

 

It was in the context of said before - small brand creators who already did not provide more appliers than maitreya + omega. In the future we can expect they will make new system skins for BOM for Maitreya only (as best seller). But if they will keep the tones same as today, the current Omega appliers will still work with the Slink feet (as solution for the "nail issue"). In other words, I will keep the feet applier I already have and use it together with the new system skin for body (what will be in the future available for BOM).

At least from your previous post I understood this will be solution for the nail issue. And for me, not being DYI person, probably the only one - if I will want to keep my current skin and the creator will not make more for BOM than Maitreya system skin. A lot people like their skins and stuck with them for years, I don't see that as so rare. And not everyone will be given more options from skin creators.

(BTW I'm still not sure if I get right how it ill work.)

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6 minutes ago, loverdag said:

It was in the context of said before - small brand creators who already did not provide more appliers than maitreya + omega. In the future we can expect they will make new system skins for BOM for Maitreya only (as best seller). But if they will keep the tones same as today, the current Omega appliers will still work with the Slink feet (as solution for the "nail issue"). In other words, I will keep the feet applier I already have and use it together with the new system skin for body (what will be in the future available for BOM).

At least from your previous post I understood this will be solution for the nail issue. And for me, not being DYI person, probably the only one - if I will want to keep my current skin and the creator will not make more for BOM than Maitreya system skin. A lot people like their skins and stuck with them for years, I don't see that as so rare. And not everyone will be given more options from skin creators.

(BTW I'm still not sure if I get right how it ill work.)

If they make only Maitreya and Omega, why would they only make Maitreya skins instead of Omega skins, which will work on Maitreya, Slink, Belleza, Tonic, Ebody, etc.?

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10 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If they make only Maitreya and Omega, why would they only make Maitreya skins instead of Omega skins, which will work on Maitreya, Slink, Belleza, Tonic, Ebody, etc.?

Because not every Maitreya owner owns a relay?

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43 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If they make only Maitreya and Omega, why would they only make Maitreya skins instead of Omega skins, which will work on Maitreya, Slink, Belleza, Tonic, Ebody, etc.?

I can't really answer what and why creators can choose. But I can imagine that small brands will simply do Maitreya skins for themselves (because its the body they use on their avatar and the only body they own = can use for testing). And then won't keep the skins as private but will put them for sale - as other stuff they do for themselves in the first place, because its not business for them.

Or just because "Maitreya" name sells - people will not be (since very beginning) informed about no need to buy some "Omega thingy" to make system Omega skin work. Users thinking: "I own Maitreya body = I buy Maitreya skin."

Or for many other reasons I can't even imagine, not being creator myself.

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Nails: Before mesh hands, even before prim hands, I used prim nails. These prim nails was worn on the default hand, and on the fingertips, you had the problem, that the painted on skin fingernails was blurry and visible under the prim nails.

To avoid this, I was wearing on glove layer, a finger nails remover, a texture that covered just the tip of each finger. The edge was semitransparent so it faded into the skin. I could also edit them and use the color picker to get a really nice match.

I think I still have this set, if I haven't deleted it: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Sexy-Mamas-Manicure-Sculpted-Prim-Nails/1555563

As I understand it, it is just to wear such gloves and the problem is solved? First, wear skin that has default nails painted on. Then, wear these fingernail removers?

I assume the mesh nails would be skin color too? We will need appliers for nail polish still?

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5 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Nails: Before mesh hands, even before prim hands, I used prim nails. These prim nails was worn on the default hand, and on the fingertips, you had the problem, that the painted on skin fingernails was blurry and visible under the prim nails.

To avoid this, I was wearing on glove layer, a finger nails remover, a texture that covered just the tip of each finger. The edge was semitransparent so it faded into the skin. I could also edit them and use the color picker to get a really nice match.

I think I still have this set, if I haven't deleted it: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Sexy-Mamas-Manicure-Sculpted-Prim-Nails/1555563

As I understand it, it is just to wear such gloves and the problem is solved? First, wear skin that has default nails painted on. Then, wear these fingernail removers?

I assume the mesh nails would be skin color too? We will need appliers for nail polish still?

The nail-hiding gloves should work. As far as the nails themselves, they shouldn't change at all. The skin bakes will only be applied to the body parts that normally got the "main" textures of the body; mesh nails will still be separate.

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So, after 19 pages of bickering, discussion and ranting, and a few actual intelligent posts, what i understand is NON-SLuv mesh bodies will not be able to use this feature. Just like they cant use Omega. Soooo this is basically LL doing an end run around appliers? I mean, the skins and clothing from years ago are so sub par to what is made now, why bother? Optimized mesh isn't laggy. Hell, i can have an ARC of less than 50K with the male slink av. I really don't understand the draw here. Is there really that much clamor to wear outdated paint on clothing and mheh skins?

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12 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, after 19 pages of bickering, discussion and ranting, and a few actual intelligent posts, what i understand is NON-SLuv mesh bodies will not be able to use this feature. Just like they cant use Omega. Soooo this is basically LL doing an end run around appliers? I mean, the skins and clothing from years ago are so sub par to what is made now, why bother? Optimized mesh isn't laggy. Hell, i can have an ARC of less than 50K with the male slink av. I really don't understand the draw here. Is there really that much clamor to wear outdated paint on clothing and mheh skins?

Non-SL-UV bodies will be able to use this feature as long as the textures used for the "system layers" match the custom UV.
But no, Bakes on Mesh will not magically convert SL UV skins for custom bodies.

The benefits of being able to use baked textures are significant regardless of how "subpar" old content is.

Also, nuking low LODs from existence (as is done with most mesh content) is not optimization.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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2 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Non-SL-UV bodies will be able to use this feature as long as the textures used for the "system layers" match the custom UV.

But no, Bakes on Mesh will not magically convert SL UV skins for custom bodies.

You cant make system layers from non SLuvs... 

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2 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You cant make system layers from non SLuvs... 

Of course you can. You can put any texture you want onto your "skin/tattoo" clothing layer. SL doesn't try to make sure that it's totally intended for the SL body UV. It's the mesh that has the UV information, not the texture/layer.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator

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Just now, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Of course you can. You can put any texture you want onto your "skin/tattoo" clothing layer. SL doesn't try to make sure that it's totally intended for the SL body UV.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me.. Some mesh bodies use more than 3 textures to make their skin/tattoos.. Niramyth uses 13 to make the aesthetic skin. Please tell me how to make a SLuv skin from that? 

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1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me.. Some mesh bodies use more than 3 textures to make their skin/tattoos.. Niramyth uses 13 to make the aesthetic skin. Please tell me how to make a SLuv skin from that? 

If the body needs more unique textures than the layers can support, that's obviously different.
But the BoM gives you 11 separate textures to use, see here.

But if a body with custom UVs had the same amount or less unique textures, you could make use of BoM.

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