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Charlotte Bartlett

The new Marketplace Features coming - Merchant Survey Requirement

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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm angry...these cuts, for me, mean I can't visit my daughter who has brain cancer as much, and her new baby that will be left motherless, or send her stuff to help.

So sorry Luna, truly.

I have heard countless merchants mention that the reason they are working in SL is because it is their only way of making extra money for things such as you mention, or to pay basic living expenses. SL has saved many lives. For me, the time came when in addition to my disabled husband, I moved my disabled mother here post surgery -- and wondered how I would leave them to their own devices while I marched off to teach school every day -- it was an impossible situation. And every day I thank God I was able to quit teaching to work full time in SL. 

At this point I would feel much less irritated at the extreme regressiveness of these fees if they did something like say the first $10000 or so would be exempt from processing fees. 

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Firstly Luna I am really sorry about your RL circumstances I truly am, and reading about it makes me understand why you are reacting emotionally to this and it gives me insight as to why you are upset.  I can't begin to understand the pressure of that situation and the impact.  What I will say is I hope you can find a way to still visit.  One of the key things SL is known for is helping our fellow creators.  I did a fund raiser for Maxwell Graf after some RL devastating situation impacted him and his family and we lent a hand to him.    If there is anything we can do to HELP you I will be first in the queue.
On the selective posting I just want to point this out to anybody reading the thread:  they will see the posts about Indie level merchants I posted versus just what you selectively posted above on professional merchants.   They will also note what I stated about believing the current marketplace will not be adaptable enough to be fit for purpose (hence why turboblahblah comes up - in context what was meant by that is - if LL are going to charge us huge fees I EXPECT a web service comparable to a professional service like Turboblahblah - nothing else and certainly nothing then posted in relation to it afterwards by other parties.      

Also just for clarity, I work 2 jobs average 60 plus hours a week to support my family.  I am a mid level creator using your "terminology" not a top level one and have just over 60 Items on Marketplace versus the 700 odd you larger creators have.  So I have every bit the same buy in as other creators do to this platform and fees.  

I honestly have felt through this thread so deflated and kind of picked on a little bit. That's on me, debate should be professional and open.   But what I will say I won't give up trying to engage positively, professionally and stay creating on SL for years to come.

 

 

Edited by Charlotte Bartlett
typo

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3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

ee, I do have some hope that LL truly values community and is not ONLY going for the bottom line, or that they might see they are going after the wrong people to increase revenue (the creators) -- I'm hoping LL will see all this and care.

 This is an important point. Second Life is not Turbo squid, it is indeed a community. Linden Lab needs to give some recognition to the fact that a significant percentage of merchants  depend heavily on the few extra dollars a month they earn here. If they are going to levy yet more regressive taxes, the burden should be born by those earning above a certain minimum income. As it stands now, the processing fee cap is only on the first $10,000! Those processing $100000 would  pay no processing fee on $90,000.

Edited by Pamela Galli

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37 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

 This is an important point. Second Life is not Turbo squid, it is indeed a community. Linden Lab needs to give some recognition to the fact that a significant percentage of merchants  depend heavily on the few extra dollars a month they earn here. If they are going to levy yet more regressive taxes, the burden should be born by those earning above a certain minimum income. As it stands now, the processing fee cap is only on the first $10,000! Those earning $100000 pay no processing fee on $90,000! 

On assumption they cash out once,  I wonder how often merchant do cash out - I do mine monthly so the fee applies each time...

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3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Rohana, I would like to think of LL as a friend or partner, but they are a corporation.

Yes Luna, they are corporation, and because they are, allow me to say this:

Ако желиш да те људи разумеју, говори њиховим језиком.

Don't be confused. As much as you don't understand the line above, corporations do not understand language of emotions.

They will do what they think they have to do for one reason or another.

I've learned that some  years ago with LL  when we woke up one morning facing cancellation of exchange offices. For me it meant zero withdrawal options as we didn't have PayPal back than. Thanks God for friends! And for wire transfer LL provided!

What I believe we are trying to do with this thread is to get what we really need before changes are made.

For example: 90 days transaction history, priority to land in busy sims, and what not ot that kind, is not what I would call "new features that are adding more value for premium members" (or something like that).  Yet, that is what we got last time.

That is the reason why I think we must, even more, it is our obligation to tell them what we really need. Otherwise, they will put hours of work and who knows how much money into something completely useless.

Last couple of days, I see a lot of tarot and crystal ball readings regarding the fees so allow me to quote:

"In the coming months some other fees may increase, including Marketplace commissions, Linden Dollar exchange fees, and cashout fees."

Fees may increase. In the coming months.

Amount of increase is not defined at all. So, as far as I am concerned, it may be anything between 0 and 99%.

Everything else said on this thread are speculations and nothing more than that.

And btw, the meaning of the line above is: If you want people to understand you, you must speak their language.

I never met business owner in SL who made it from comfort position. Most of us were in some kind of trouble. And that makes us fighters and winners. And I truly admire every single merchant in SL, big or small, cause only they know what they had to go trough to make their SL business alive.

I cannot even begin to imagine how you feel regarding your RL situation, nor I could find any word of comfort , not even in my own language. Be brave and may God be with you.

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1 hour ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

On assumption they cash out once,  I wonder how often merchant do cash out - I do mine monthly so the fee applies each time...

The fee applies to any amount under $10k. 

My example is extreme, but theoretically big earners  could save/earn 2.5% by cashing out very infrequently. 

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On 28.03.2018 at 6:08 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Let's go back to some of your comments (and Charlotte's) from the first page:

You said:
"I desperately need everything Charlotte listed. I would be willing to pay monthly packages for premium features for merchants on marketplace, gladly"

Charlotte said:
"There needs to be a store manager option who can edit or create listings, because we want to be able to delegate but we don't want to break TOS or put our account in any danger. "
You replied to Charlotte regarding the above comment:
"omg this x 1000000.   Would create a secondary employment market in SL as well as trust me I would pay somebody to do that for me RL rates."

From the 3rd page, Charlotte said:
"I think the point with paying more would be having merchants on marketplace who pay for that privilege with a pro-merchant account - most high volume merchants I know are down with that approach.    I also would not have an issue with a manual migration if a new marketplace met the majority of our requirements, for the effort it would take the benefit would soon pay off."

And:
"If we are going to start paying closer to professional fees like we do on sites like Turboblahblah, I am expecting a professional model to operate within :ph34r: "

When you advocate for policies that would make the "high-volume sellers" (as Charlotte put it) earn even more money -- policies that the low-earners on the MP CAN NOT AFFORD -- you are demonstrating a profound insensitivity toward those who earn less. Likewise, when you easily accept the notion, without question or analysis, of a possible 30% pay cut you are demonstrating a lack of awareness regarding how that would unfairly affect those who are not top earners here.
Low earners most likely cannot pay for the "monthly packages for premium features" that would help you earn even more each month, nor can they pay for a store manager to acccess their account to do the grunt work of listing.
Is this an insensitivity toward those who earn much less than you do, or is it demonstrating that you don't really care about anyone but the top earners like yourselves?  I'll let you be the judge of that for yourself, and I will judge you on the policies you advocate for in the new MP features.

I prefer to think some of you were just unaware of how many of the policies you advocate for would ONLY benefit the top earners. We all, initially, only see things from our own perspective. I asked you basically, it was a question if you go back and read it..."Do you not care about the middle range people who have so much more to lose if they take a 30% pay cut"??

I am kind of 'picking' on you guys a little bit, you and Charlotte, because you are leading the charge here. While Charlotte is advocating that this survey should be sent out to ALL merchants (and I applaud that), the two of you are influencing other merchants (especially Charlotte being the leader of the Facebook group).
I don't think either one of you are 'evil bad people', in fact I get a sense both of you are quite nice. I just want policies to be as fair as possible, and not policies that unfairly favor the elite merchants.

Where in the world this 30% cut is coming from? This is YOUR guess, not mine. Not what I have in mind.

I did say I would gladly pay a monthly fee for marketplace features, like you mentioned if it would help me earn more. Anybody would.

I am sorry but if you can not invest into your business to earn more, that's not on anyone. Everyone running a business has an overhead. This is not about being able to afford it. Have you ever seen someone run a stock base business for example? If the feature you are paying more is going to bring more profit, then you invest to grow your business. Like, this is getting to a point where I have serious doubts I can get through to you. We disagree on the most basic fundamentals of owning a business and nothing constructive can come out of this. 

I am not insensitive towards anyone, please kindly stop making this about me or Charlotte. This is not a forum about my personality or character. I strongly recommend you to avoid making a topic personal or getting emotional when you want to join a discussion. This way we can have very healthy conversations that might truly lead to positive change. 

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 11:44 AM, Pamela Galli said:
On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 11:28 AM, Luna Bliss said:

I'm angry...these cuts, for me, mean I can't visit my daughter who has brain cancer as much, and her new baby that will be left motherless, or send her stuff to help.

So sorry Luna, truly.

I have heard countless merchants mention that the reason they are working in SL is because it is their only way of making extra money for things such as you mention, or to pay basic living expenses. SL has saved many lives. For me, the time came when in addition to my disabled husband, I moved my disabled mother here post surgery -- and wondered how I would leave them to their own devices while I marched off to teach school every day -- it was an impossible situation. And every day I thank God I was able to quit teaching to work full time in SL.

Thanks, Pamela.
Yes I remember you mentioning a disabled spouse but did not know your mother was added to that. Yes thank God you can work from home and more easily handle all your responsibilities.

I've known some of these people you mentioned too...who can only afford to pay for their SL land because they sell a bit on the MP, or pay for their cable from earnings here, or electricity.
I don't know how many there are out there, but I know we'll be hearing from at least a few on the forum when their commission fees increase.

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22 hours ago, RohanaRaven Zerbino said:
On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 11:28 AM, Luna Bliss said:

Rohana, I would like to think of LL as a friend or partner, but they are a corporation.

Yes Luna, they are corporation, and because they are, allow me to say this:

Ако желиш да те људи разумеју, говори њиховим језиком.

Don't be confused. As much as you don't understand the line above, corporations do not understand language of emotions.

They will do what they think they have to do for one reason or another.

Haha, didn't know if my computer had gone bonkers, or if you had and starting writing jiberish, or if my frequently blurry vision had suddenly taken a severe turn for the worse! At least I got a big laugh.
But how DO we speak their language? I just assume they are people with feelings too, once nudged out from a corporate mentality.

Thanks for the kind words regarding my daughter.

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 12:03 PM, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Firstly Luna I am really sorry about your RL circumstances I truly am, and reading about it makes me understand why you are reacting emotionally to this and it gives me insight as to why you are upset.  I can't begin to understand the pressure of that situation and the impact.  What I will say is I hope you can find a way to still visit.  One of the key things SL is known for is helping our fellow creators.  I did a fund raiser for Maxwell Graf after some RL devastating situation impacted him and his family and we lent a hand to him.    If there is anything we can do to HELP you I will be first in the queue.

Thanks for the offer of help -- it means a lot.

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40 minutes ago, Blueberryxx said:

I did say I would gladly pay a monthly fee for marketplace features, like you mentioned if it would help me earn more. Anybody would.

I am sorry but if you can not invest into your business to earn more, that's not on anyone.

I can't see how MP improvements will increase sales for merchants. I'm not the only one who thinks this, btw.
So all this focus on MP improvements seems futile to me, and detracts from the real issue we should be focusing on -- these coming pay cuts via additional commission fees (whatever the amount will be).

However, I'm not saying you should not have this survey at all. I think it's useful for some who enjoy playing shopkeeper -- it can be fun to do this, play with new bells and whistles and all.
My concern though, is that some will spend time on MP changes believing their sales will increase -- some who actually need this added income in RL and so should be spending this wasted time on RL jobs. I don't want to be a part of deceiving these merchants, I don't want them to be harmed, and so I want to warn them to be cautious.

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Only chimed in on the OP original post as thought it was a good idea.

I didn't realise what it would turn in to. As a teeny tiny seller who has no story to tell of personal problems (that is any of your business),  who doesn't fall in to  the middle or top sellers or even the micro sellers, who had the gall to attempt to raise the fact that what I have learned here can make a teeny amount in markets elsewhere - I apologise for having the temerity of thinking I could take part.

I do sympathise with those who have made SL a major part of their financial survival though.  I am not dismissing that.

And community - significant numbers concerned? So why are they not here.

If the OP still wants to go through with their original post I am willing.

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One thing that I would like to see, and that is as a customer first, and a merchant second, is a "demo" button of some kind.  MANY people have lost business from me, because as I was sorting through listings, I could not get rid of demos, or tried to do search words, such as "-demo -DEMO -demos", which does not work, either.  I do think things need to be "demo'd", but perhaps an option to "include" or "not include" demos, and when you are looking at the listing, that you can order the demo from that listing.

 

for example, if I want to sort shoes, by price...#1 - how can I tell where the "free" shoes are, or even the $1 or $5 shoes, because there are sooooo many demos (same as hair/etc).  The second is just checking through a listing type, such as "women's hair"...sometimes the demo hairs look just like the rest, it's hard for me to search via MP...there are many times I start, and just give up.  

 

I would also like somehow a "wrong category" button.  One where you can also place the "suggested listing category".  Many times, have searched one category, and found another...i.e. building FP items, and finding shoes.  or kid's clothes, and finding women's dominatrix clothing, or the like...Not something that would auto-move or auto-close the listing (that could be abused), but would flag it, and show it to the lister (who may have made a mistake), and perhaps flags it to a moderator, who can move it or close it til it is in it's proper category.  Ideally, I think if I were setting it up, one flag would bring it back to the lister's attention (IM's, emails, same things as like when you are overdue or over limit on Casper's rental)....then perhaps a 3d flag by a 3d customer would bring it to a moderator to check it and take further action if and as needed.

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As a low or medium seller (my items are older, and am just starting on my alt, with 10 regular items and 4 gacha items)...I look at things another way....

 

Again, if I had the choice (I don't)...I would love to have MP set up as it is...but also a non-feature supported, "standard" listing.  One where, perhaps, all of the listings are shown in a random order (no preference to any type of seller), and/or "new to old" listings.  I could see on the "feature supported" listings, offer things that make it worth it.  Demos.  Ability to update SLURL's in bulk (a separate listing option, for those who only have items at one location, of course).  A non-feature supported (meaning no priority listings due to payment, no ads across the top/etc)...could be a very generic.  maybe can only show 1 picture.  Anyway, I don't know how to make both work...but, it could be an option, to help the "smaller person", and the "bigger person" both at the same time.

 

I also would lik the option...not a vendor system based on MP, as that could put a lot of vendor systems out of business, but where through the vendor system, you can list the same items on MP through a few additional spaces on a vendor entry.

 

anyway, my 2 cents...or .001L?

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4 hours ago, Blueberryxx said:

I did say I would gladly pay a monthly fee for marketplace features, like you mentioned if it would help me earn more. Anybody would.

I am sorry but if you can not invest into your business to earn more, that's not on anyone.  We disagree on the most basic fundamentals of owning a business and nothing constructive can come out of this. 

No, anyone wouldn't pay more for the *potential* to earn more.  Most would pay more to earn a guaranteed more, absolutely, but a potentially higher earning, not a guarantee, is a gamble, no matter how you slice it. Most smart business owners these days, be it in a virtual economy or the real economy, won't make those kinds of gambles anymore. If the potential percentage leans more in their favor, say at least 70/30, then yes, it might be worth it, IF, and only IF, the business can withstand falling on the opposite end. Otherwise, it is not a wise or worthy investment, plain and simple. 

Having owned actual brick and mortar businesses my entire adult life, my meager little hobby store in sl notwithstanding, I can tell you if anyone ever tells you that you should invest in the potential to earn more with a less than 70/30 in your favor percentage, in today's economy, you should politely bow out of the conversation. It's not a safe bet, by any stretch of the imagination. Note that this applies to *today's* economy, which also heavily applies to today's sl economy..perhaps even more so with as much uncertainty as the economy faces (speculations, increased fees, promises never met, blah, blah, everyone gets it...and that's not necessarily a knock on LL, it's just the truth of the matter, we all know those struggles that SL faces).

People that say "I'd gladly pay more for the potential to earn more", who don't follow that up with caveats are likely in the position, a better position I might add, to invest regardless of the (perhaps any) percentage in their favor. So, of course it would make sense for them to say such things. Now, this is merely my own opinion, but I have some serious doubts that the vast majority of creators within sl, are actually in such a position. I believe the vast majority can only invest so much, and only with a guaranteed percentage in their favor of increased income. That's the reality of many in business today, not just virtual businesses, but business in general. The mid-earners have a far more difficult time with investing in their own future than they once did, primarily due to uncertainty in the economy. SL is no exception to this. The more uncertainty that exists, the less likely merchants/creators are going to be willing to invest-whether it's monetarily, or creatively.  Some may have a more difficult time understanding why others have difficulty investing(again, in any form), because for them it is NOT nearly as difficult of a decision.  That does not, however, mean that either party, understands business less than the other. It does, however, mean that both have different approaches based on circumstance, knowledge, experience and position within the economy itself. Neither is necessarily right, or wrong. In fact, I'd say that both parties are perfectly right....as it applies to THEM and THEM ALONE. But neither can be right as it applies to all...because neither has the insight necessary for their own situation/opinion/thoughts/etc.. to be applicable for all.  As confusing as that may sound, it's  really not when it all boils down to it.

So yes, for you it may be easy t say "I'd invest more, if I got more" and that be the end of the statement. But for a great deal of others, that couldn't possibly be the end of the statement, because those caveats and certain guarantees are an absolute necessity beforehand. It helps to have a bit of understanding of both sides of the coin. Both those confident that an increased (drastically or not) monetary investment is in their best interest, and those that are unsure as to whether or not such would be a wise decision at this juncture.  If both parties cannot at least come to that kind of understanding, then, yeah, you'll never get anywhere with this kind of discussion. If you can, however, the discussion could prove to be quite valuable, especially when discussing changes that have the potential to benefit ALL, regardless of their position within the economy(customer, merchant, creator, big, small, mid-sized....all inclusive).

 

Edited by Tari Landar
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5 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

No, anyone wouldn't pay more for the *potential* to earn more.  Most would pay more to earn a guaranteed more, absolutely, but a potentially higher earning, not a guarantee, is a gamble, no matter how you slice it. Most smart business owners these days, be it in a virtual economy or the real economy, won't make those kinds of gambles anymore. If the potential percentage leans more in their favor, say at least 70/30, then yes, it might be worth it, IF, and only IF, the business can withstand falling on the opposite end. Otherwise, it is not a wise or worthy investment, plain and simple. 

 

 

Tari, we are never going to agree on what you just said. I would never give this advice to anyone running a business. Especially when the investment isn't large enough to be this massive risk you would claim bankruptcy over, we are talking over potentially what? In worst -worst- case 100? I co own another business which solely focuses on inventory investment for companies, hit me up if you are interested in growing your RL business! I just can not wrap my head around the mindset that "I should get everything I want to make money off of the platform and I am entirely entitled to everything the platform is offering."

I literally can not reason with this. You guys I am officially done arguing, this is so silly, we are never going to see eye to eye, and that's okay. I have my way of running a business and you have yours and I wish you nothing but success.

Some poor soul is going to end up here a few months from now thinking oh good, suggestions for marketplace and end up very, very confused xD

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1 minute ago, Blueberryxx said:

Tari, we are never going to agree on what you just said. I would never give this advice to anyone running a business. Especially when the investment isn't large enough to be this massive risk you would claim bankruptcy over, we are talking over potentially what? In worst -worst- case 100? I co own another business which solely focuses on inventory investment for companies, hit me up if you are interested in growing your RL business! I just can not wrap my head around the mindset that "I should get everything I want to make money off of the platform and I am entirely entitled to everything the platform is offering."

I literally can not reason with this. You guys I am officially done arguing, this is so silly, we are never going to see eye to eye, and that's okay. I have my way of running a business and you have yours and I wish you nothing but success.

Some poor soul is going to end up here a few months from now thinking oh good, suggestions for marketplace and end up very, very confused xD

What on earth are you talking about? Where did I even say anything remotely close to the bolded above?

Where on earth did I say anything at all about bankruptcy, or even large investments, either? 

I am honestly lost at where you got any of the information you seem to have gotten out of my post, or, rather, how you got to those conclusions from what I typed.  I think you are seeing words, or meaning(s) that is/are not there at all. 

You do realize the vast majority of merchants in sl would fall more under the hobbyist label than even the mid-sized merchant label, too, right? Which means ANY investment they make should have some caveats, if they want to protect what they've already invested (creatively, monetarily, resource-wise, etc.). Those folks are far less likely to even HAVE the resources to invest further for a "maybe you'll earn more". 

While I appreciate the offer, my rl businesses always have, and currently are, doing just peachy, and I'd never take business advice from someone on the 'net that says it's always wise to pay more for a "maybe", or that "anyone would".  That's one of those things that, often, pushes small businesses under...bad business advice. 

 

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Well I think as alas I can't close the thread I started, I hope you  can likely draw this to a close as I can't see the value the above comments are now adding to the OT.

The reality is we are all each our own minority, with our own needs, requirements, drivers, hopes and fears even through to how we each individually interact with the marketplace and what we use it for as merchants and what is important to each of us.

The first few pages of this thread was merchants posting their ideas, then well this thread lost it's way and went OT.

I implore anybody with other issues outside of the survey request and ideas for what to include in the survey to start their own thread, it's the polite thing to do and keeps us within the community rules here.   I have apologized to Grumpity who took the time and effort to post here with a genuine level of support to undertake a marketplace survey so we collectively as a "majority" could have a say in what was developed as a priority.  We never have had this before, so I only posted with good intentions to hopefully bring wider engagement from the majority of merchants who don't use this forum.

I want to thank everybody who upvoted/liked the OP, who took the time to give constructive ideas etc in the hope that LL would add a section for that within the survey.   

A final very sincere thank you for those who made every effort to post constructively, my only goal was to get a survey so we merchants could be heard appropriately (and effectively whilst being taken seriously).     I won't be posting again here as my objective was achieved by obtaining the post from LL and the ideas which people posted for inclusion.

Thanks again, Charlotte.

Edited by Charlotte Bartlett
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About the 3 dollars minimum on cashout: this killed VOLONTARY all the small cashout transactions:

3$ on a 50$ cashout transaction means that you are paying.. A 6% fee.

3$ on a 100$ transaction still means a 3% fee.

 

Add to this that since your new President, Trump is in power, (MURICA GREAT AGAIN trolololol), the DOLLAR value is lower than EVER. It is becoming stupid and beeing paid in dollars slowly means same thing as beeing paid with toilet paper.

Just take 3 seconds, to have a look about the history of the rates dollar/euro here: http://www.xe.com/fr/currencyconverter/convert/?From=EUR&To=USD

You will understand that for now one full year the dollar has never been so low comparativly to the EURO. If those genius buisness guys at the top off LL dont realize than actually in 2018 beeing paid in dollars is meaning less and less for an european, due to extremly negative rate changes balance, i cannot help you.

You want to add fees to an already oppressive economic field (the cashout fees you just added last year + a low dollar), go for it, but iam afraid that it wont work.

 

@Charlotte, for now 4 years the only way to talk to the lab has been through third party (bloggers for example) that rephrased our questions prior sending them to the lab, (which was highly insulting to us ), for example, the Lab interviews.

I dont think that this is an example of democracy

On an other side i think that talking about the many realities of SL in this thread has been a good thing. Maybe it wont happen again, so please dfont blame us for that..

Should be thanksful that some people that are almost retired from SL like me help you avoiding getting free extra fees..

Edited by Majestic Kohime
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You know one thing I really loathe about discussions like this, is when all sides, all avenues, all offshoots, etc.. aren't welcomed when they are not started by the OP, or those solely agreeing with the OP. If folks dare to take something in another direction(still completely related to the topic I might add, it's not even slightly off topic, lol) they get called out, or someone will come back with "well since we can't close this", "will someone close this topic". or some kind of flounce, because others don't agree with them. THOSE are the kinds of things that close off communication and cause issues, not disagreements, off shoots in a discussion, or even off topic(which, again, we've still not reached, it's all been rather on topic, lol)

Despite what it may seem like in a few posts, people actually do agree in more ways than they disagree, some folks just don't want to see it. I may disagree with some of the business advice given by some, but that doesn't mean I believe those folks, and all of their opinions, hold absolutely no merit at all. I don't believe the vast majority of folks posting in this thread have the belief that all others have no merit. I, in fact, believe that most folks posting here in this thread are doing so because they believe all opinions DO hold merit, and ought to be heard, not just some, not just those that agree with them...but all.  THAT is a healthy discussion. A discussion that ventures off into "how could XYZ affect ABC", isn't always off topic, and shouldn't be seen as such, especially in this context where we are discussing merchants/creators and the future of such. It's all relative, it's all on topic, and frankly, I think it's ALL welcome too. Whether or not I agree with all points matters not. It shouldn't matter to anyone actually, because if we agreed on every single thing, we'd never get anywhere.-hence why on some of these issues merchants face we have been stuck in an endless cycle of never getting a remedy.

Yes we actually have had a lot of discussions about what merchants in sl, especially as it pertains to the MP, would like to see, why we'd like to see them, how they could benefit us...and we've even had many a disagreement on whether or not our opinions were as accurate as we thought they were. It's really not that difficult to find the discussions either, a quick search will bring them up. We've even mentioned having a survey of sorts, had plenty of threads where people shared what they'd like to see, etc... People have been discussing these topics since MP's inception. A lot of those discussions are scattered all over the place, but they do exist. This is one of the few times a linden actually chimed in(not the only, but one of a few). More often than not those other discussions didn't end in flounces because people recognize that no one owns a topic, no one gets to regulate in what direction a topic goes, no one gets to pick and choose what or who has merit, and we can manage to disagree while still maintaining that we each have merit as creators, merchants, people....I really do recommend looking at many of the previous topics to read through them, they're an interesting read(and a lot of the topics that were problems way back when...still are, lol, not surprisingly, I suppose). I may not agree with every single desire other merchants have made in this thread, or every opinion, but I know that each has its own place, both merchant and opinion alike, and I can recognize that the MP, hell all of sl, would be absolutely nowhere without each and every one of them. 

Shrugs..

Edited by Tari Landar
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You do make some good points Tara, the above was not a flounce if that was directed at me.   Simply objective achieved by a few pages in.  I did want to give you one response, as you kindly took the time to type all that above.

You note above it's the one of the few times a Linden chimed in.  

Perhaps a good time to ask yourself why do you think that was?   What was different in the first few pages of this thread?   How were people posting, interacting etc?  Was it just luck?  I was also pleased they did, so will continue my interactions professionally and with ethics and due consideration as if that helps get results and a voice for the wider merchant group that's a great step in the right direction. 

Whilst you may state no one gets to pick and choose who has merit, I suspect what is being posted and their words being used are sufficient to see whom is acting with said merit. 

On the thread topic, I understand what you mean however, you have to ask what is the purpose of each post.  Either merchants wanted a survey and had input in what it should contain, or they had an opinion that differed to that and did not want a survey.   Using the thread for other agendas is their own decision, but as I said do they want to be taken seriously or just have people roll their eyes and scroll quickly down.  If the forum is an emotional support one or a venting forum that's great but honestly as you will know this as a successful RL business owner - you have to negotiate and communicate to further your own agenda.  In this case the agenda of the OP was to get a survey for merchants so at least we could have our say on our priorities.    Imposing other agendas and taking it OT, is really not community minded - debate the agenda, disagree with it and put alternatives forward - but if not why not be polite and open a brand new thread on FX risk, or the US president, or   fees etc.

There have been people throughout this thread with different opinions and who posted their survey ideas, or things they would not find useful in said survey, or concerns who are graceful and able to communicate across differing opinions that was never in question, but there have been genuine posts here with an objective to just "whinge" and subtract value from constructive communication. Again perhaps they just needed emotional support, and I know SL has users who find it wonderful for that and it's more about role playing as a business etc.

On a side note, one of the persons posting here enacted an extraordinary act of kindness today to another poster here based on their RL situation that this thread brought to public attention.   Totally unrelated to this thread OT and not me.   So one thing I will say is I see this from both sides, if people want to bring their personal situations into professional ones, each to their own - it goes back as I mentioned to what their own objectives are, and how successful they find that approach.

I am happy ours did what we wanted.

Have a great evening.

 

Edited by Charlotte Bartlett
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1 hour ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

 

You do make some good points Tara, the above was not a flounce if that was directed at me.   Simply objective achieved by a few pages in.  I did want to give you one response, as you kindly took the time to type all that above.

You note above it's the one of the few times a Linden chimed in.  

Perhaps a good time to ask yourself why do you think that was?   What was different in the first few pages of this thread?   How were people posting, interacting etc?  Was it just luck?  I was also pleased they did, so will continue my interactions professionally and with ethics and due consideration as if that helps get results and a voice for the wider merchant group that's a great step in the right direction. 

Whilst you may state no one gets to pick and choose who has merit, I suspect what is being posted and their words being used are sufficient to see whom is acting with said merit. 

On the thread topic, I understand what you mean however, you have to ask what is the purpose of each post.  Either merchants wanted a survey and had input in what it should contain, or they had an opinion that differed to that and did not want a survey.   Using the thread for other agendas is their own decision, but as I said do they want to be taken seriously or just have people roll their eyes and scroll quickly down.  If the forum is an emotional support one or a venting forum that's great but honestly as you will know this as a successful RL business owner - you have to negotiate and communicate to further your own agenda.  In this case the agenda of the OP was to get a survey for merchants so at least we could have our say on our priorities.    Imposing other agendas and taking it OT, is really not community minded - debate the agenda, disagree with it and put alternatives forward - but if not why not be polite and open a brand new thread on FX risk, or the US president, or   fees etc.

There have been people throughout this thread with different opinions and who posted their survey ideas, or things they would not find useful in said survey, or concerns who are graceful and able to communicate across differing opinions that was never in question, but there have been genuine posts here with an objective to just "whinge" and subtract value from constructive communication. Again perhaps they just needed emotional support, and I know SL has users who find it wonderful for that and it's more about role playing as a business etc.

On a side note, one of the persons posting here enacted an extraordinary act of kindness today to another poster here based on their RL situation that this thread brought to public attention.   Totally unrelated to this thread OT and not me.   So one thing I will say is I see this from both sides, if people want to bring their personal situations into professional ones, each to their own - it goes back as I mentioned to what their own objectives are, and how successful they find that approach.

I am happy ours did what we wanted.

Have a great evening.

 

I'm gonna try to address little bits at a time :)

If you look back at the LL forums, and all their many incarnations over the years, you'll note that Lindens rarely ever weigh in on most things-the vast majority actually. Your guess is as good as mine as to why. But suffice it to say that communication is one area in which LL has a terrible track record. It is, seemingly, one of the areas in which even a little bit of improvement can make a big impact, and can-when it does happen-also offer us residents some sense of "ooh, they're listening", even if they'e really not(it's hard to tell whether or not they are, more often than not).  It really honestly has nothing to do with how people post, or even what,  but you do have to look back into all the various forums we have had since, well, forever, to see that it's a shortcoming on their end, rather than ours(residents that is). I can say it's been only the last year, really, that LL have chimed in more, regardless of the topic(s) being discussed. So, yeah, how you, I, or anyone else posts, doesn't have any effect whatsoever as to whether or not LL will chime in...or at least, the last 15+ years have shown, it has no effect. Perhaps they are changing that..I do hope so, but like I said, their track record is really telling.

Np, I don't think I, you, or anyone else gets to determine whose opinion has merit, whether we agree with them or not. I disagree, and agree, with loads of things I see people post. Sometimes it's their approach alone that I disagree, or agree with, sometimes it's the content...but in either case, it's not my place to say they have no merit. I don't think it's anyone's place...well, aside from LL, anyway (their forums and all). 

I think a lot of the posts actually are pretty community minded, even if they seem to venture off the original intent of the post. I don't consider everything others consider off topic, to actually BE off topic...both those I agree with, and those I don't. Anyone who has been on these forums any length of time, or even anyone reading them, can see that topics get melded quite often, and even things that might *seem to some to be off topic, are actually related. I like seeing other sides of coins though, I like discussions. I like debates. I like knowing how other merchants feel. I especially like seeing what people who think differently than I do feel about something. Even if they may not approach a topic in the same way I do. I like differences...a lot. Sometimes it's those I disagree with the most that give me the most food for thought, whether it's to solidify my own opinions, broaden my horizons a bit, or even think "hmmm..you know...s/he may be right". You just never know.  There are very few instances wherein I take the "my opinion is my opinion(and the right one) and there is no changing it, ever" stance. (not to say that you, or anyone else has, really). So, yep, I think to have something be community minded, you need to open it up to all f the community, all of the commentary, all of the positions, all of the topics even slightly related, etc..Skip what you don't find relevant, join in when you desire, ignore folks ya just don't want to read from, and all that jazz. That's what I do anyway, I'm not  here to tell others what to do, lol. 

I believe we simply disagree on what is actually off topic, agree to disagree, I suppose. But I see these comments, even complaints as some might call them, as completely and utterly related. Being a merchant, one that uses the MP, involves so very much...sometimes perhaps even more than we, as individuals, think about, or, I guess, link together.  I see a lot of concerns that have been raised, in a myriad of different ways, from a lot of different people...some I agree with, some I do not, but all I personally believe, have merit. I don't see it as whinging, complaining taking things way off topic, or any of that. But, to me, it's all relative to being a merchant...or at least, everything I read anyway. I may well be completely wrong in my own assessment, but that's how I see it. 

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It’s is ok we simply agree to disagree.  We have our own viewpoints based on our own successes/businesses/strengths/experiences.  I have a completely different viewpoint of LL interactions and it is positive in my direct engagement.  That doesn’t negate your own experiences.   Support I have struggled with recently but in a one off situation.

Thank you for your explanation.  If nothing else, it has been nice to meet some merchants I had not come across before and have dialogue ☺️

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On 3/23/2018 at 4:09 AM, Grumpity Linden said:

We're being upfront with you about our plans to shift revenue sources because our communities are our partners.  Not all changes will make everyone happy, but none are going to be made lightly, and all are made with a goal of the continued health and success of Second Life.  

It's like the landlord coming into your house and saying 'We're going to make improvements and increase your rent - good times, happy anniversary'. Are the tenants really going to be saying 'yes please, let's have a family huddle and see if we can come up with some improvements :D' ? It's more likely they'll be thinking 'Take your improvements and your rent increase and shove it'. Is it really so surprising that the pollyanna theme of the first few pages got quashed? When I first started reading the thread I was surprised that nobody was mentioning the fees, until Grumpity said something. It was meant as a reality check.

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Pollyana type attitudes harm people, especially in leadership positions. It's not "negative" to point out reality.
Living in beauty does not mean to 'Be Positive'.....it means facing cold hard facts and being willing to engage anyway, to love. Without reality what is one engaging with but illusion?

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