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Chic Aeon

Firestorm 5.0.11 New Mesh Building Tools

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We have been discussing the new Firestorm building tools since the viewer came out over a month ago (maybe  two but it doesn't seem that long). But all that great discussion is lost in another thread with Firestrom 5.0.11 in the title which really isn't going to help much for search. And WE DID RAMBLE a lot LOL.   I recently wrote a short article on the new tools for my blog. Nothing indepth, mainly to alert SHOPPERS that they now have tools to make smarter purchases. Happily it is more popular than the free mesh body post that it shares placement with in the sidebar. THIS is a good thing I think. Folks do care. 

I use the LOD tools almost daily now and even though I always tested VISUALLY before, they have really helped me make -- well let's call them "informed" choices. I had a good example today of the beginning of a house build so I took a screenshot to demonstrate.  Remember, MY method and choices are mine and not necessarily the ones others do or should make. We each work differently and often for different purposes. 

firestormtools.thumb.jpg.0215ae4e03c2377c6eeb21579ea05205.jpg

You can see that even at this relatively small size the solar wall  will be viewable more clearly than it needs to be. (We don't need to see the details in the windows from a block away now do we?)  So I can decrease the LOD settings (not a handmade LOD gal here)  and still get the visability needed.  Having the DISTANCE FIGURES really helps me. Before it was a cam out to what I "think" is the edge of the sim sort of thing.  I also believe that having the Linden viewer numbers next to the FS numbers is a reminder that there ARE folks using 1.25 or lower LOD settings. 

The studs, cement, footer and windows are on two 1024 textures with the cement and windows sharing the same stacked texture space (I divided the cement footer into four parts with obvious "breaks in the pour" so that seams would appear to be naturally there.  I can't stand repeating woodgrain so those boards are mapped individually (they could have been done in four sections that repeats also). 

5a9b0f240fa58_windowclose.thumb.jpg.e154221f7f4a2f6d990a97a651bf74e1.jpg

The wood is still slightly blurry (not like the tiny bench I found with NINETEEN TEXTURES; it was SO CLEAR) but I can live with that. Handles will be added individually on the inside since they are small objects and didn't need to be figured into this window wall AND will ONLY be seen from short distances inside the house. 

I suspect a lot of us have learned from these new tools and it would be good to share how we are working differently so that newcomers can find the information in the archives. I am assuming that the new FS features will be integrated into the Linden viewer eventually, at least I certainly hope so. 

One thing that "I" discovered this last month or so with all the conversations is that while certainly not the thriftiest of all with my vertices and textures, I am MUCH closer to the game asset side of the equation that the majority of well-known and popular Home and Garden creators.  That makes me happy really. I know I will never have yummy Maya bakes since I have no intention of starting a new learning curve. I know that it is unlikely I will be making my own LODs in the future except when I feel it will really help.  But in the scheme of things I feel like I am doing a pretty good job of bridging super thrifty game asset and super pretty but OH so hard on the server and viewer designs. And for me -- that's good enough. 

We ARE supposed to be having fun here. The folks making the big bucks in RL can be perfect *wink*.

 

PS. A quick upload using the uploader defaults gave me these results and a MUCH low land impact.

defaults.thumb.JPG.6f9cf3b1900130556d229f4b4206be4e.JPG

 

So any thoughts on how you work differently now  feel free to add. That was kind of the point of this post. I also needed to remind myself that I actually AM doing pretty well in the scheme of things; it was a difficult week in my corner of the virtual world. 

 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
adding info
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I learnt a lot from in in terms of using imposters for the lowest levels of my LODs.

But the best part is now heading into an event, like fameshed, and editing the flowers and plants there to see the exact distance when they disappear in meters. I've not bought many plants since the new firestorm came out, so it's saved me US$100 easily.

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1 hour ago, Callum Meriman said:

I learnt a lot from in in terms of using imposters for the lowest levels of my LODs.

But the best part is now heading into an event, like fameshed, and editing the flowers and plants there to see the exact distance when they disappear in meters. I've not bought many plants since the new firestorm came out, so it's saved me US$100 easily.

Dysfuntionality has some nice flowering bushes and some excellent group gift grasses (I joined the group to get the grasses but I already had a few bushes). Those and the old LAQ trees I have are pretty much my landscaping if I want to see anything at a distance.  Looking at others stuff was an eye-opener for me too. Just like the Avatar complexity numbers and some hair and jewelry. A few things got tossed for sure. 

 

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21 hours ago, Callum Meriman said:

I learnt a lot from in in terms of using imposters for the lowest levels of my LODs.

But the best part is now heading into an event, like fameshed, and editing the flowers and plants there to see the exact distance when they disappear in meters. I've not bought many plants since the new firestorm came out, so it's saved me US$100 easily.

Well it's not ALL good news.

Definitely thinking of you this morning when I was checking out a new venue about to open. The designer you referenced (not by name) in another thread was there. I tried to inspect the wares and -- like the car that I mentioned where you couldn't see any of the LOD info -- YOU 
CANNOT SEE THE INFO ON THE TREE DEMO.  The demo is no mod. The car was no mod, but that doesn't seem to answer the question as SOME no mod items (the matchsticks) you can see just fine.   

A mystery still, but if the designers who and not making things well, figure out to circumvent the evidence ---  :SwingingFriends:

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27 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Well it's not ALL good news.

Definitely thinking of you this morning when I was checking out a new venue about to open. The designer you referenced (not by name) in another thread was there. I tried to inspect the wares and -- like the car that I mentioned where you couldn't see any of the LOD info -- YOU 
CANNOT SEE THE INFO ON THE TREE DEMO.  The demo is no mod. The car was no mod, but that doesn't seem to answer the question as SOME no mod items (the matchsticks) you can see just fine.   

A mystery still, but if the designers who and not making things well, figure out to circumvent the evidence ---  :SwingingFriends:

You can see LOD info on all no mod mesh.
The item probably has a prim in the linkset. Use Edit Linked Parts to see the LOD info for the mesh parts.

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9 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

You can see LOD info on all no mod mesh.
The item probably has a prim in the linkset. Use Edit Linked Parts to see the LOD info for the mesh parts.

Ahhhh. So the 100 percent mesh description "may" be incorrect. Since you COULD see the item's info before from this person and you cannot now (I tried several of the demos out) I am thinking that was a possibly purposeful move (other NDA info left out LOL).  

 

***********  OK. I couldn't stand the mystery so I logged into the main grid to go check again. I do understand what you are saying, but that isn't the case with this object.  

Example:  A piece of mesh (one object) linked to a prim on my building pad. Edit linked parts shows info.

linkset.thumb.JPG.99d01f08364ac125ad828872b1939091.JPG

 

But when I try and do that to the tree in question it clicks off again. There is no way to edit the linkset and I have been able to do that with other linkset items that were not mine.   The single mesh object isn't the root prim and the MORE INFO tab says the linkset is made up of four prims but I derendered everything in the booth, turned transparent on and couldn't fine anything the tree was linked to. It is possible that the root of the tree is SUPER tiny (even a nano prim sculpt? -- would that work?). Anyway  I just don't see any way to see the new LOD info.   Of course if this IS purposeful, then we will have another often used saying to go along with DON'T BUY WITHOUT A DEMO - LOL.    That's all I know. If you have more ideas I would love to hear them. 

5a9c546421366_buildmenu.thumb.PNG.c7e203cae66bb4e8d0921d33c8c2714e.PNG

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6 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Definitely thinking of you this morning when I was checking out a new venue about to open. The designer you referenced (not by name) in another thread was there. I tried to inspect the wares and -- like the car that I mentioned where you couldn't see any of the LOD info -- YOU 
CANNOT SEE THE INFO ON THE TREE DEMO.  The demo is no mod. The car was no mod, but that doesn't seem to answer the question as SOME no mod items (the matchsticks) you can see just fine.   

I suspect that this is "partially intended behaviour" if you can have such a thing.

if you go into edit-linked, you should be able to cycle through the mesh components and view the LODs normally.

The reason I say  "intended" is that I had to make a choice when I implemented, what do I do for a mixed object, Something made of prims/sculpts and Mesh. The answer I chose was to show a blank prim template which I believe was the legacy behaviour too. I am not convinced I got it right but I don't know what the correct behaviour should be. I'll happily take input and suggestions ideally via Jira for improvements (and I mean that sincerely). The code basically says "is this "a mesh" if so then show the details, if not do what it always used to do.

One thing I could in theory do, but I'm not sure how efficient it would be, would be to have a link set panel. The edit dialogue logic would then become:-

If we are a prim, we show the prim params

If we are a sculpt likewise with the sculpt map

If we are a mesh show the LOD info

If we are the root prim of a linkset.....show a summary of the links in the linkset. "This object has 4 components: prim: 2 sculpt: 1 Mesh 1" or something along those lines?

**** EDIT****

Ooops OK so I need to read further ahead or not post at 1:30am

so this seems to not be what I described.... As per Whirly's request. I'd be interested to see it.

The 2.3 weight on the server certainly supports the 4 prim claim. 

Edited by Beq Janus
read ahead Beq
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2 hours ago, Beq Janus said:

I suspect that this is "partially intended behaviour" if you can have such a thing.

if you go into edit-linked, you should be able to cycle through the mesh components and view the LODs normally.

The reason I say  "intended" is that I had to make a choice when I implemented, what do I do for a mixed object, Something made of prims/sculpts and Mesh. The answer I chose was to show a blank prim template which I believe was the legacy behaviour too. I am not convinced I got it right but I don't know what the correct behaviour should be. I'll happily take input and suggestions ideally via Jira for improvements (and I mean that sincerely). The code basically says "is this "a mesh" if so then show the details, if not do what it always used to do.

One thing I could in theory do, but I'm not sure how efficient it would be, would be to have a link set panel. The edit dialogue logic would then become:-

If we are a prim, we show the prim params

If we are a sculpt likewise with the sculpt map

If we are a mesh show the LOD info

If we are the root prim of a linkset.....show a summary of the links in the linkset. "This object has 4 components: prim: 2 sculpt: 1 Mesh 1" or something along those lines?

**** EDIT****

Ooops OK so I need to read further ahead or not post at 1:30am

so this seems to not be what I described.... As per Whirly's request. I'd be interested to see it.

The 2.3 weight on the server certainly supports the 4 prim claim. 

 

I think you did just fine and "I" use your newness daily and I am very happy to have it. SO much better than guessing. For many reasons I will not go into here I do believe this is "intended" behavior from the creator. I thought of a very easy way they could have done this but will not post here LOL.  "I" could (if I really wanted to expend the effort) likely get to the root prim, but most folks that haven't been building for a decade would never get there. 

I think this just falls into the soon to be category of "if you can't see the info then don't buy the product" LOL.   

It would be much simpler just to upload items correctly so I am not getting why "new" items have to have this secrecy. 

/me walks slowly away with head shaking in wonder.

 

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6 hours ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Can you give me a SLURL to that tree & the object name?

I will but not here. Venue is likely full now but when I get inworld and get back over will send personally.   I think Beq said she wanted it too. 

 

I am pretty sure that both of you can figure out how easy it would be to "cheat the system" :D

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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So as not to get into the naming and shaming I have clipped this to the extreme. Enough that you can see the links. 

The linked components are easily found by using the little navigation arrows just underneath the edit linked check box. Maybe there is a case for making those more prominent in t link set?

(note: they also work for select face. Ansa added those a while ago and I use them endlessly)

The root is a default block, full alpha and part way up the trunk. 

The leaves and trunk/branches are separate meshes, as is the fruit. 

At about 10m on LL defaults the tree vanishes

2eca1752227f772f150e25d16bf4c283.gif

 

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2 hours ago, Beq Janus said:

So as not to get into the naming and shaming I have clipped this to the extreme. Enough that you can see the links. 

Went back over. Tried AGAIN (fourth time) and it will not work for me. Neighboring mesh works just fine. This is what "I" see. Very odd.

whatisee.thumb.JPG.6c2de8ca7339932e153ba6495b2a1c1d.JPG

On neighboring mesh I see what I expect to see. On sculpts and prims I see the same sort of info as above.  Note that while I can TRY and used Edit Linked Parts, it switches me back to this screen in a second. 

neighbor.thumb.JPG.44891cac1535b4ea2fd333bce6cbff18.JPG

I JUST realized that I have never seen any arrows. When you wrote to me IM and said you cycled though with the arrows I was puzzled.  But here is a shot of a linkset (very nice mesh so no shaming at all) and while I can see all the  info, I see NO ARROWS.   

fireplace.thumb.JPG.d7a66dadee4b64d62eccd1754df1ece6.JPG

That part I figured out from Beq's animated gif. I obviously don't cycle though the visuals, just look at the numbers :D.

 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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5 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

and while I can see all the  info, I see NO ARROWS

Them aren’t arrows under the edit linked” checkmark?

7B569F4B-92DE-4026-825C-FBF86A8F7979.jpeg

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53 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Went back over. Tried AGAIN (fourth time) and it will not work for me. Neighboring mesh works just fine. This is what "I" see. Very odd.

whatisee.thumb.JPG.6c2de8ca7339932e153ba6495b2a1c1d.JPG

On neighboring mesh I see what I expect to see. On sculpts and prims I see the same sort of info as above. 

neighbor.thumb.JPG.44891cac1535b4ea2fd333bce6cbff18.JPG

I JUST realized that I have never seen any arrows. When you wrote to me IM and said you cycled though with the arrows I was puzzled.  But here is a shot of a linkset (very nice mesh so no shaming at all) and while I can see all the  info, I see NO ARROWS.   

fireplace.thumb.JPG.d7a66dadee4b64d62eccd1754df1ece6.JPG

So what's going on here?  

Note that once again a thread has move into other territory LOL. 

 

You didnt click "edit linked" on the tree... 

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2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You didnt click "edit linked" on the tree... 

Yes I did MANY MANY TIMES. You didn't actually read all I wrote. It will not LET me choose edit for some reason and keeps reverting to the screen shown.  If you notice the other screenshots where things are working as expected, the EXACT same steps were taken -- just different results. 

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So Beq and I spent some time talking and experimenting with NO answers. The tree worked for her fine. I sent her my "cheat" experiment object where no info showed for me, and it worked for her just fine. I can go directly (without even moving) from one item to another and others besides the tree work fine. Oddly enough the cars that I could not see info on a few weeks ago now show the info.  So definitely a mystery but I am glad that it isn't a universal problem. 

I JUST went over to check on something and I may have a bit of a hint that will help Beq with this. So if it does, I will certainly report. 

Edit as this is getting ridiculously long.   

I CAN see the mesh info on trees from the other maker that are OLDER and also LINKSETS so there is something different about the new trees (checked several new against old so that seems to hold). 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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Curiously without these tools would most users notice this? I'm just wondering, since most set their LOD high and have left it. Is this a revolution of good content on SL :O? 

Unfortunately for clothing to compete its a little.. janky... >.>

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27 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

I'm just wondering, since most set their LOD high and have left it.

Do you have any statistics about this?

 

29 minutes ago, MIstahMoose said:

Is this a revolution of good content on SL :O?

I think part of the answer is here:

On 4.3.2018 at 11:20 PM, Parhelion Palou said:

The prices for 1070 and 1080 cards have gone through the roof thanks to cryptocurrency miners buying them up as fast as they can. The 1080s are now in the $800 - $1200 range and the 1070s are in the high $600 to nearly $1000 range.

(from https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/419162-second-life-with-a-gtx-1080-card/). Suddenly it isn't so easy to write off people who don't have a 1080 as poor suckers with crappy computers anymore.

But the main reason is probably that Beq's new Fs tools shows how badly some meshes in SL are and how poor craftsmen and craftswomen many of the well known makers are.

The tree Chic and Beq used as an example is rubbish anyway. Even with LoD factor 4 it would rbeak down at only 40 m distance.

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35 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Do you have any statistics about this?

 

I think part of the answer is here:

(from https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/419162-second-life-with-a-gtx-1080-card/). Suddenly it isn't so easy to write off people who don't have a 1080 as poor suckers with crappy computers anymore.

But the main reason is probably that Beq's new Fs tools shows how badly some meshes in SL are and how poor craftsmen and craftswomen many of the well known makers are.

The tree Chic and Beq used as an example is rubbish anyway. Even with LoD factor 4 it would rbeak down at only 40 m distance.

Well its just what you see in groups 24/7 "X Is just a triangle?" "Oh set your LOD factor to 5 etc"

I personally think the GPU market will stabilize again, crypto currency already had one crash. Its just a bubble imo. personally, and not being a professional market dude, I think the party will end soon and the cards that aren't burnt out will be a nice $50-100 dollars for 1080s ^.^

I don't think a lot of them are bad craftmen, they make good quality products. They meet the consumers demand, but the Land impact tricks and LOD is just.. Well.. Kind of on Linden Lab. I mean have you seen how LL handles draw calls? Especially being able to cam around, its pretty rough on systems. Or what about that promise of giving creators custom bones? Bento is still trash for anyone wanting to make creative moving things! And I am not entirely sure animesh will be the solution, either.

Unfortunately, Linden Labs platform itself leads to creators having to use poor techniques so that modern quality can be reached. I've designed a lot of game-ready things, but even alone on a sim with them turning on advanced lighting lags the hell out of everything. I think people put too much blame on the creators, but they just try to meet the quality demand of the users. Advanced lighting is too terribly implemented to be useful, so having to meet Land impact constraints while meeting user demands of high detail without being able to implement normal maps and specular.. Well. Its quite a problem :P
Now I get the 1024 textures on tiny objects, yeah thats awful. Though It all just..depends.. ya'know? IE Photo ready props should have high texture density, etc.. Modern Game characters use 4k textures, and I get nothing will ever be as optimized as modern games.. But thats the level the user wants to see now. Its a lot more complex and detailed than what you can get if you're optimizing for lag. In the end we work to the consumer, if the consumer wants to pay me to make a game ready lag free sim, sure. I'd do it, but if I make buildings that have 512 textures and no lighting baked in, the reaction you get are "ew wtf?"

Bit of a ramble sorry ;P

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Hi,

I don't think it is polite and welcome to put criticism on an object, the tree, when all other examples, are basic builds.

We will be able to write criticism fairly when the mesh importer will work finely on Second life, it is not perfect for now.

Additionally, there is how Li is calculated. Is it a good way, how Li is calculated? Maybe yes, maybe no.  But, for sure, LOD and low Li are not working in the same direction.

Some objects are very specific, rock, trees, complex house, industrial stuffs, etc ... What users want : low Li, low price and now even good LOD. That not works.

And I prefer a tree visible at 40m, than fake trees like 8 panels billboard, isn't it Chinrey ?

Edited by CSVirtual

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36 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

Hi,

I don't think it is polite and welcome to put criticism on an object, the tree, when all other examples, are basic builds.

We will be able to write criticism fairly when the mesh importer will work finely on Second life, it is not perfect for now.

Additionally, there is how Li is calculated. Is it a good way, how Li is calculated? Maybe yes, maybe no.  But, for sure, LOD and low Li are not working in the same direction.

Some objects are very specific, rock, trees, complex house, industrial stuffs, etc ... What users want : low Li, low price and now even good LOD. That not works.

And I prefer a tree visible at 40m, than fake trees like 8 panels billboard, isn't it Chinrey ?

Hugs! 

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39 minutes ago, CSVirtual said:

 

Hi,

I don't think it is polite and welcome to put criticism on an object, the tree, when all other examples, are basic builds.

 

Hugs!

E61452E5-5DB0-4B3A-8644-DA33B02FDE4D.jpeg

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