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Did SL just go down again?

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2 minutes ago, Deann3 said:

 

Really mature Alwin and Love

 

I was just riffing on the word “sycophant”.  I had no intention of disrespecting your post. In fact, I’ll go back to see if I can comprehend this thread, and see if I have an opinion!

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15 hours ago, Deann3 said:

Gonna have a rant here....

Firstly, I've been "on" sl since 2007 with different avatars over the years (just about all of them i've forgotten either the passwords, names or both) and honestly, i have kept on seeing the same crap over and over again. So every time performance is absolutely pathetic - i.e response time, severe lagging, sl logging me off for no reason, sl not responding (that's a new one!) - i go away for a while (couple of days, weeks, months whatever). When i come back, the same old issues are still there because nothing has been done about it.

Now for the rant ....

The designer techs at Linden Lab are among the most unprofessional bunch of techs out there - i rate them up there with the idiots who work at Maxis/EA. They have continually shown that they simply do not care about what is really going on in second life. It is clear to anyone who had even a rudimentary understanding of gaming and computing that core issues are with the core platform. It simply is unable to support everything that has since been added. Do the techs care? No. They keep on adding stuff that is not needed and just adds more load onto the platform. I'll give an analogy - say, you're building an office building and you lay down foundations to support a five storey building. After the building is finished, you then decide to add more storeys to the building. How long until the foundations begin to weaken and crumble? Designing computer games - because that is, essentially, what Second Life is - is exactly the same.But do the Techs or head honcho's at Linden Lab even acknowledge that? Do they even care? No. They had Will Wright come in nearly a decade ago because of the ongoing issues to fix the problems. Second life worked well - for a about three months. Then, after Will Wright left, everything was back to normal. More updates without addressing the core issues.

Okay, yes, ISP's may have something to do with some minor aspects of performance but .... doesn't it make sense to ensure that something like second life be compatible with all ISP's and network types? Shouldn't that be one the very first things that is ensured before the game is launched and before "updates" are added? Ditto for computer systems, software and hardware. So to turn around and say to a user who is having issues "Well, it's not secondlife, it's your system; it's your isp" defeats the purpose because it is not acknowledging that Linden Lab failed majorly in those key areas.

And yet what do we have (in relation to the above point)? A number of sycophantic's who zealously - and even blindly - defend Linden Lab's 'efforts'. To those said sycophants - take a look in the mirror and see how far down your face those acid burns go (if people are clever, they'll get what i'm saying here). Anything a sycophant tries to say only proves two things - they're clearly on the payroll (no matter how much they deny it) and that is all they do in life. Defending a severely faulty product and blaming everything else does not encourage people - it is discourages people. I can almost guarantee, however, that there will be those sycophantic types who come here all up in arms about what I am saying and will try and make out like I'm being discriminatory (or some crap like that).

Another issue with Second Life's performance is developers. Most of them clearly have no idea what they're doing and they just build and build. What's the result? A sim that had severe issues with lag, rezzing and general overall performance. And Linden Lab allows this - why? Because said developers are paying clients and are pouring money into the coffers. So why should Linden Lab give a damn?

By the above statement, it should be clear that I am a free account user. Always have been. My point is this, if this level of pathetic performance is what non-paying users get, why the hell would anyone want to pay? The point of freebies - or trials/samples - is to show off your product. If it doesn't work as advertised with the free demo, then how do you expect to sell the product? Basic marketing 101, people.

So, what to do? Well, these are just my suggestions so take them as you will. Firstly, shut down Second Life for a period of time in order to fix everything from the foundations up. However long it takes, so be it. People who want things to work as advertised will understand.Secondly, improve system security - if Linden Lab has to get in something like what NORAD has, so be it. Thirdly, install and enforce limitations on building - i.e prims and the such.If a developer exceeds said limitations, give them a warning. Three warnings and they're gone. Simple. Along with that, limit the amount of traffic on any given sim - based on it's size and capacity. Again, if the developer violates this, they get three warnings followed by a ban. This is logical, people. What we have with Second Life at the moment is - quite literally - a free-for-all. Essentially, Tech-Anarchy.

Now let's sit back and see all of the Sycophant's come in and have a whinge.

I don’t defend LL. However:

1) I myself am a programmer, so in general I have respect for programmers.

2) I agree the issues are bad - but the worst part is the failure to communicate - to us PAYING users - what the issues are. In this case, LL could have said “HALP!!1! WE ARE IN TEH DDOS HECK OVER IN HETE!” but instead, savvy users either inferred through info on teh interwebs, or trickle-down of info, the DDOS problem. It took SEVERAL DAYS for LL to post about it. This is shameful.

3) While I have been in SL a little longer than you (2006), I am an “occasional” user. That being said, I don’t have many problems in SL when I do use it, whether on my own land (which is mainland), or at popular clubs.  

4) Perhaps some forum expert would be able to help you determine why your Experience is worse than some.

- Now, if you really read my response, you shouldn’t see much sycophantic about it. Please don’t assume anything.

- Read #2 again.

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15 hours ago, Deann3 said:

 

Okay, yes, ISP's may have something to do with some minor aspects of performance but .... doesn't it make sense to ensure that something like second life be compatible with all ISP's and network types? Shouldn't that be one the very first things that is ensured before the game is launched and before "updates" are added? Ditto for computer systems, software and hardware. So to turn around and say to a user who is having issues "Well, it's not secondlife, it's your system; it's your isp" defeats the purpose because it is not acknowledging that Linden Lab failed majorly in those key areas.

 

Second Life was "launched" fifteen years ago. Some of their beta testers were on dial-up connections. Explain to us what steps they should have taken to "ensure compatibility" with network developments that wouldn't even be on the radar for a decade.

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15 hours ago, Deann3 said:

So, what to do? Well, these are just my suggestions so take them as you will. Firstly, shut down Second Life for a period of time in order to fix everything from the foundations up. However long it takes, so be it. People who want things to work as advertised will understand.

Second Life is what it is because there are a large number of people running businesses and making products that people want to use in the environment. During your shutdown, in the time that it will take to "fix everything" - which will undoubtedly be a long time -  those people will be out of business and will need find something else to do. Also, when Second Life is restarted after your shutdown it's very likely that much of the current version of Second Life will be obsolete since, as you've noticed, it's built on a framework with many fundamental issues.

Upon returning, the reasons why people use Second Life now will no longer be there.

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Theresa,

in relation to the isp providers and networks, ensuring compatibility should be an ongoing thing. Yes, it should have been done at launch, but it should also be a continual action. Failure to do so is failure on behalf of Linden Lab - in this particular case, the service provider (going the presumption - not the word i'm looking for but it'll do for now - that Second Life is a service provided.

As to your second point, improving the fundamental framework/core platform should - in theory at least - prevent the issues you've addressed and the reasons why people come to second life should still be there. That is in theory, but as we should all know, theory doesn't always work in practice. If improving doesn't work, then obviously a complete rebuild will need to be done - again referring to my construction analogy. But again, this shouldn't affect the reason's why people come to second life. As to the people with businesses in SL - there's no way they'd be making a living off of it - the real world conversion is minimal so it won't affect their income.

At least you have acknowledged there are major issues, unlike some other people who have responded to this. And for that - thank you. And thank you for an intelligent response.

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40 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I don’t defend LL. However:

1) I myself am a programmer, so in general I have respect for programmers.

2) I agree the issues are bad - but the worst part is the failure to communicate - to us PAYING users - what the issues are. In this case, LL could have said “HALP!!1! WE ARE IN TEH DDOS HECK OVER IN HETE!” but instead, savvy users either inferred through info on teh interwebs, or trickle-down of info, the DDOS problem. It took SEVERAL DAYS for LL to post about it. This is shameful.

3) While I have been in SL a little longer than you (2006), I am an “occasional” user. That being said, I don’t have many problems in SL when I do use it, whether on my own land (which is mainland), or at popular clubs.  

4) Perhaps some forum expert would be able to help you determine why your Experience is worse than some.

- Now, if you really read my response, you shouldn’t see much sycophantic about it. Please don’t assume anything.

- Read #2 again.

Running on minimal sleep with no coffee does that to me, Love. Apologies. THankyou for also acknowledging that there are major issues.

As to forum experts - how many are going to give me the stock-and-standard answer of "Second Life works just fine, it must be your isp/system. Or you've done something wrong". Seriously, i had enough of that crap with the Sims - only there they had the attitude of "If you want to play The Sims you must spend the money to get a top-end gaming system. Otherwise tough." Problem there was, there wasn't even a guarantee that The Sims was going to run on such a system. In fact, people were saying that it wasn't running on a top-end gaming system. I just hope that people here don't start with that crap.

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7 minutes ago, Deann3 said:

Second Life works just fine, it must be your isp/system. Or you've done something wrong".

No actually, it could be anything from laggy sims, to network latency issues between you/your ISP and one/many of the services which make up SL. I’ve watched these guys diagnose every kind of problem on here. Sadly, sometimes they can’t even get a poster to provide their system specs (from copy/paste of help screen in viewer). There are also people who try SL on bad/slow WiFi. Right now, there’s a thread with someone complaining “SL kills their PC”, and it’s probably just overheating (from last post) and needs a new/better fan, etc. Could be anything at all. That’s why “experts” have my respect. I am not an “expert”.

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Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

No actually, it could be anything from laggy sims, to network latency issues between you/your ISP and one/many of the services which make up SL. I’ve watched these guys diagnose every kind of problem on here. Sadly, sometimes they can’t even get a poster to provide their system specs (from copy/paste of help screen in viewer). There are also people who try SL on bad/slow WiFi. Right now, there’s a thread with someone complaining “SL kills their PC”, and it’s probably just overheating (from last post) and needs a new/better fan, etc. Could be anything at all. That’s why “experts” have my respect. I am not an “expert”.

My system is still fairly new (just a little over two years old) and i have a cooling pad permanently connected. As to my network/ISP, i'm on the NBN - an Australian thing using optical fibre as opposed to the old copper system. As my place is brand new (well, eight, maybe nine months old), i've got fibre-to-residence as opposed to fibre-to-hub in pre-existing places. Overall, the internet performance is so much better than in my old place and with the old copper system.

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2 minutes ago, Deann3 said:

My system is still fairly new (just a little over two years old) and i have a cooling pad permanently connected. As to my network/ISP, i'm on the NBN - an Australian thing using optical fibre as opposed to the old copper system. As my place is brand new (well, eight, maybe nine months old), i've got fibre-to-residence as opposed to fibre-to-hub in pre-existing places. Overall, the internet performance is so much better than in my old place and with the old copper system.

Right. Well, there are easy tests to do, to check network between your awesome ISP and LL (it could suck because many reasons). Someone else will need to suggest that. I think it’s a speed test against Tucson. There are also viewer logs that can show failures due to connectivity issues. 

Sorry, I’m done trying to explain that which I am not expert in.

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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Right. Well, there are easy tests to do, to check network between your awesome ISP and LL (it could suck because many reasons). Someone else will need to suggest that. I think it’s a speed test against Tucson. There are also viewer logs that can show failures due to connectivity issues. 

Sorry, I’m done trying to explain that which I am not expert in.

Done all the speed tests - do them fairly regularly actually - and everything is up to scratch.

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Just now, Deann3 said:

Done all the speed tests - do them fairly regularly actually - and everything is up to scratch.

Then make a new post some day asking for help figuring out why your experience is bad.

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I was just curious as to how SL wasn't compatible with all ISP's and network types?  Mainly when I've seen general issues discussed in the forums that are ISP or network related, it tends to be an issue where trace routes can show a node along the way that's being an issue, or it has to do with hard-wired versus wireless - which I know some people say isn't an issue anymore (but I had a work VPN connection that would often disconnect/reconnect/disconnect/reconnect when I was on wireless, but not when I was hard-wired, so I can see that as still being a possible issue).  There also are places - schools, some work places, etc., that have made decisions on their end to not allow connections to SL.

There are people in SL with businesses that do make money - all the way from just covering their inworld costs all the way to some who do make their RL living from their SL businesses. 

Enough time and turnover has probably occurred that I wouldn't be surprised if the current developers were not as inspired by the original vision as the original developers were.  Having been a programmer as well,  I don't expect that the original developers should have built the foundation in a particular way to meet a need that wasn't even on anyone's radar at the time they were originally building the foundation. It's even more interesting to me, because of most of the world being user-created content.  I also know that even with new systems, unless you have a lot of funding/staff, there will likely be code debt, and that the older a system is, the harder it is to go back and retrofit parts of it for new functionality.   Sometimes all you can do is to start over fresh.  

It's also interesting to me that (and I could be wrong) even OpenSim and other derivatives like Inworldz where the foundation and code are being maintained by other developers, haven't made strides of progress beyond what SL has done (though they have vari-regions, IW prides itself on its region crossing smoothness, and the sim costs are much less) to where people are flocking from SL to OpenSim or IW in large numbers any longer.

I think there have been efforts - although not within criticism from users - to help educate/redirect content to being more efficient, easier to render.  There was the education around avatar complexity values and the 'jelly doll' functionality.  There are the new tools in the new FS viewer that provide more information about how mesh items have been built, particularly in terms of LOD and physics shapes. 

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3 hours ago, Deann3 said:

the sycophants "blindly" defend Linden Lab without acknowledging that there are major issues. They blatantly ignore everything that is being said and continue to say "Second Life is perfect - anyone doesn't agree doesn't know what they're talking about".

I've been around SL and these forums for over a decade now and I'm pretty sure I have never seen anyone say "Second Life is perfect......"

Everyone here will admit that there are problems with SL.  Yet, by the same token, a very large percentage of the problems experienced by users truly are due to their computer setup or their ISP/network or an installation/configuration problem.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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18 hours ago, Deann3 said:

Gonna have a rant here....

Still don't know why you are ranting to other residents.

2 hours ago, Deann3 said:

how many are going to give me the stock-and-standard answer of "Second Life works just fine, it must be your isp/system.

Nobody has, nobody will. We all know the Lab has a lot of problems.

Most of your points are overstated mind you, but the Lab could have dealt with this DDOS with the same efficiency as GitHub, and they didn't - and to boot, they were slow to advise people. This was a huge DDOS, a massive one, and due to all the turkeys who couldn't do basic security on thier redis daemons.

Could the lab have done better, you betcha. Was the Lab at fault this time, not in any way shape or form. The only problem the Lab had was an inability to filter the DDOS traffic, and an inability to keep us in the loop, like normal.

Edited by Callum Meriman
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2 hours ago, Deann3 said:

Done all the speed tests - do them fairly regularly actually - and everything is up to scratch.

 

you do realize you have this big big ocean between you an arizon where all the LL servers live,  goto a sim, open the about help and find the sims ip address and do a tracert to that ip address and check the ms times.  anything over 70 to 100 means network, not LL's but coming from your point to theirs.

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10 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

anything over 70 to 100 means network, not LL's but coming from your point to theirs.

Mine is normally at 230ms, which is pretty awesome tbh. But then it's travelling 15500 miles or so. My German partner's is about 170ms from memory, it's closer from Germany to Arizona then Australia to Arizona. The thing is it's normally consistently that speed. When it jumps to 2200ms is when there is something to track down, and quite often a jump that size - as you rightly say - it is at the PC/ISP level, and not with the Lab.

As a real example, two days ago I installed Autodesk's Mudbox trial to see if I could use it in my workflow. Mudbox's trial installs 2 akamai daemons and 2 autodesk daemons, one of those 4 new daemons flooded my network and caused immense lag inside SL.

I, of course, didn't realise what it was until the next day - terminating those daemons returned my speed to normal. Mudbox fails my trial, it loads up my network configuration in ways that destroy the SL experience. Pity.

Edited by Callum Meriman
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15 hours ago, Deann3 said:

My system is still fairly new (just a little over two years old) and i have a cooling pad permanently connected. As to my network/ISP, i'm on the NBN - an Australian thing using optical fibre as opposed to the old copper system. As my place is brand new (well, eight, maybe nine months old), i've got fibre-to-residence as opposed to fibre-to-hub in pre-existing places. Overall, the internet performance is so much better than in my old place and with the old copper system.

At least you didn't lose at nodelotto and end up on Turnbull's MTM "solution".

Curious on one thing, have you cranked your bandwidth up in the client due to having FTTP? Because you shouldn't, in most cases that's a "less is more" setting. If you cranked that slider up to max, pull it back a smidge watching how fast things rez each time.

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On 3/8/2018 at 12:34 AM, Callum Meriman said:

At least you didn't lose at nodelotto and end up on Turnbull's MTM "solution".

Curious on one thing, have you cranked your bandwidth up in the client due to having FTTP? Because you shouldn't, in most cases that's a "less is more" setting. If you cranked that slider up to max, pull it back a smidge watching how fast things rez each time.

I don't touch anything like that, Callum. I leave that stuff at the standard.

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4 hours ago, Deann3 said:

I don't touch anything like that, Callum. I leave that stuff at the standard.

Fair'nough :) A lot of people crank that up, and then get real bad performance as a result.

 

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TLDR; My long winded rant on why folks should think about what they say when they complain, before they actually say it....and why people stop listening to suggestions when the posters turn into aggressive ranters instead of actually providing insights. 

 

I don't apologize for LL and their lacking....well, a lot of things. Communication is one of their biggest downfalls, coming in a close second would be their inability to recognize their own audience. But I still have to say, and will always say, that their actions thus far at keeping sl afloat (not an easy task, and not without our assistance, of course) hold a great deal of merit for far more people than they do not. (if that makes any sort of sense).

Yes, Ll has a hell of a lot of flaws..show me a business that doesn't (that is not excusing away flaws, apologizing for them, or ass-kissing, as it's more commonly referred to as, it's just a fact, lol). 

I have been in sl just as long as some, not quite as long as others, and far longer than many others. How long I've been here has absolutely no relevance though, or, really, not much weight when it comes to these kinds of discussions. The same can be said for any other person's existence in sl. For all we know you(general you) could have spent less than a year in total, yet have a rez day from 2004. Actually i've met loads of people that have old(er) rez dates but have spent far less actual time inworld than folks with much newer rez dates. So..I put little to no faith in someone's rez date. I do, however, put a great deal of faith in those folks I *know* have not only been in sl for a very long time, but have proven t have a great deal of knowledge about it too. THat right there, holds a massive amount of weight in my book (your mileage may vary).

I, like probably a lot reading this thread, have seen countless threads, countless posts, just like this one ..."here's what I think LL is doing wrong". Not all of them are without merit, even if their delivery sucks donkey toes. In fact, some of them have a LOT of merit. They kinda lose that merit when they sink to the level of "anyone disagreeing with me is a (insert whatever derogatory term you wish here)" level, though. Ya kinda lose your audience, your point, and most importantly, your merit, when ya head down that rabbit hole. Sometimes, people can't get back out of it either, so their words will go in one ear and out the other(if they even go in at all) forever after that. Sometimes I feel bad, rarely but sometimes, when I feel that I can't take someone's opinion on anything all that seriously, because they've proven that an actual discussion isn't something they desire previously. 

There is one thing I always want to ask people that go into lengthy rants like that though. Well, more than one thing, but they all mesh well together. They're all rhetorical of course, but, worth thinking about, imo. First off, those who make such rants.....have you ever actually worked on a project even remotely similar to sl? Even if you have programming/gaming/IT/technical/whatever experience....has it ever actually been with something LIKE sl? By this I mean everything that the backend of sl entails., not simply experience being IN or using such a product...but creating/maintaining/fixing/supporting, etc...

If not, while your technical knowledge and experience may be quite worthy of discussing...your ability to recognize *everything that is wrong with LL, and thereby sl itself, may well be lacking some key components. We can all discuss our technical knowledge and experience until we're blue in the face. We can also discuss our own knowledge and experience with such products(sl and the like) until we're blue in the face. But, we're still not on the backend, and we will all still have limited knowledge. That doesn't mean we're all complete nincompoops, lol, but we should recognize our limited capabilities when they exist.  I DO have experience working with similar products, am currently working on a similar project and even my knowledge is woefully lacking....because it isn't *specific to sl. That's something people on our various project teams all over the world fail to recognize, and it's been a major contributing factor when it comes to the great many issues we've encountered. The inability to recognize our own limitations, limited knowledge, limited capabilities...limited, well, everything. Combine that with limited vision-often limited by pie in the sky desires that are so unrealistic it would be comical if it weren't actually tragic, and you can have one huge mess. This is why projects even remotely similar to sl literally take years just to plan, let alone execute. There have been countless similar projects that never came to fruition-for good reasons-and some that have but since fizzled(if not gone completely, not doing all that hot). So, when I read rants about "why doesn't this platform just shut down and reboot"-which is what they often read as...in my mind I am going "are you friggen kidding me, do you have ANY idea what that would cost, what that would cause, how long that would take..or..ANYTHING?". Because, an actual complete shutdown and rewrite would-and this is one of the only times you will ever see me say this-absolutely kill sl. It may be a temporary death, only time would tell, but it would be a death, without a doubt. 

That's not much of a response to the actual rant I suppose, just a general..."before you rant about what's wrong-which we ALL recognize is absolutely wrong, and start making suggestions....THINK about your suggestions and whether or not they are actually realistic". You truly do have to consider how sl came to be, how far it has come...all the positive attributes that kinda fade into shadows when ***** hits the fan. Sometimes people focus so much on the ***** all over the ceiling, they forget to look down at the nice clean spots on the floor ;) 

 

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On 2/26/2018 at 6:14 PM, Pandora Pawpad said:

I agree, look up Ziggy Alcott in Sansar. Woot! 

I want Ziggy Alcott back in Second Life not long load time, boring, no one there, waste of money, Sansar

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